It occurs to me that many holy books claim a God exists that is all powerful and that this God has a message he/she/it wants you to know. But it occurs to me that an all powerful God would not have any need for such a limited and primitive means of communication. An all powerful God could simply make us all know what he is there and what he expects of us*. So the books themselves are at best redundant, and almost certainly misleading.
That we do not all know and agree on what God wants, that we have battles between different religions and different sects, tells me that if an all powerful God exists, he must intend all of this confusion. Perhaps he enjoys it. This conflicts with the messages I keep reading in these holy books.
So I wonder, is the mere existence of these holy books evidence against their claim of an all powerful God with a message he wants us to know?
* - Please note that us knowing what he expects of us doesn't in any way restrict our "free will" to obey or not obey what he wants, an in fact that only with knowing what he wants can we truly make any informed choice and have "free will" on the matter.
Existence of Holy Books as Evidence Against Their Claims
Moderator: Moderators
-
- Apprentice
- Posts: 102
- Joined: Sun Apr 20, 2014 11:06 pm
-
- Student
- Posts: 42
- Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2015 7:03 pm
Re: Existence of Holy Books as Evidence Against Their Claims
Post #41God set up different kinds of thoughts. The thoughts man thinks with are called Satan and the Beast. The thoughts that He has His prophets and saints write and speak are not from Satan and the Beast. We refer to these thoughts as Christ or the Son of God, Spirit of God, Kingdom of God, Kingdom of Heaven, Kingdom of the Spirit, Holy Spirit, etc.ttruscott wrote:How then do you reconcile James 1:13 When tempted, no one should say, "God is tempting me." For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He tempt anyone. yet James 1:14 Temptation comes from our own desires, which entice us and drag us away. which implies to me that if you are correct, HE gives us tempting thoughts/ desires in contradiction to HE does not tempt anyone...?Infinite One wrote:...All thoughts originate in the mind of our Creator who spoke them all into his creation....
I know the difference between the thoughts of Christ and the thoughts of Satan and the Beast. Since I know the difference, you cannot make me believe that your thoughts come from Christ, even if you quote scripture. That's because you don't know whose thoughts were involved in changing the original writings of the prophets and saints who God used to testify to his knowledge.
If you put your trust in the New Testament as the true writings of God's saints who testified to his knowledge, then you won't trust the voice of God when He speaks to you.
- ttruscott
- Site Supporter
- Posts: 11064
- Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 5:09 pm
- Location: West Coast of Canada
- Been thanked: 3 times
Re: Existence of Holy Books as Evidence Against Their Claims
Post #42Or maybe HE is separating out those whose rebellion is presented as scepticism from those whose hope in HIM is confused with gullibility by the sceptics?Tired of the Nonsense wrote: It's almost as if He is attempting to separate out anyone with an ounce of skepticism in them from those who are profoundly gullible....
It's almost as if He is attempting to separate out anyone with an ounce of skepticism in them from those who are profoundly gullible....
PCE Theology as I see it...
We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.
This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.
We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.
This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.
- ttruscott
- Site Supporter
- Posts: 11064
- Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 5:09 pm
- Location: West Coast of Canada
- Been thanked: 3 times
Re: Existence of Holy Books as Evidence Against Their Claims
Post #43Who else knows this difference?Infinite One wrote:...
I know the difference between the thoughts of Christ and the thoughts of Satan and the Beast. ...
PCE Theology as I see it...
We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.
This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.
We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.
This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.
- ttruscott
- Site Supporter
- Posts: 11064
- Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 5:09 pm
- Location: West Coast of Canada
- Been thanked: 3 times
Re: Existence of Holy Books as Evidence Against Their Claims
Post #44But then all evil comes from the thoughts of GOD. Sorry, my GOD is a GOD of love who has no wickedness in HIM. HE is light with no darkness. Brackish water cannot come from a well of pure sweet water. Your definition fits an Eastern expression of their false god more than it does the Christian YHWH.Infinite One wrote: ...
God set up different kinds of thoughts. The thoughts man thinks with are called Satan and the Beast. The thoughts that He has His prophets and saints write and speak are not from Satan and the Beast. We refer to these thoughts as Christ or the Son of God, Spirit of God, Kingdom of God, Kingdom of Heaven, Kingdom of the Spirit, Holy Spirit, etc. ...
Thanks for sharing...but no thanks.
PCE Theology as I see it...
We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.
This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.
We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.
This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.
-
- Guru
- Posts: 1694
- Joined: Thu Jul 30, 2015 2:59 pm
Re: Existence of Holy Books as Evidence Against Their Claims
Post #45[Replying to post 41 by Infinite One]
Are you saying you know Christs and satans thoughts ? Then deny the NT? I am seriously confused here.
Are you saying you know Christs and satans thoughts ? Then deny the NT? I am seriously confused here.
- Danmark
- Site Supporter
- Posts: 12697
- Joined: Sun Sep 30, 2012 2:58 am
- Location: Seattle
- Been thanked: 1 time
Re: Existence of Holy Books as Evidence Against Their Claims
Post #46The problem is that once you accept the idea that man can interpret the thoughts of God and write them down in a book, Infinite One's words have exactly the same validity as any book in the Bible.ttruscott wrote:But then all evil comes from the thoughts of GOD. Sorry, my GOD is a GOD of love who has no wickedness in HIM. HE is light with no darkness. Brackish water cannot come from a well of pure sweet water. Your definition fits an Eastern expression of their false god more than it does the Christian YHWH.Infinite One wrote: ...
God set up different kinds of thoughts. The thoughts man thinks with are called Satan and the Beast. The thoughts that He has His prophets and saints write and speak are not from Satan and the Beast. We refer to these thoughts as Christ or the Son of God, Spirit of God, Kingdom of God, Kingdom of Heaven, Kingdom of the Spirit, Holy Spirit, etc. ...
Thanks for sharing...but no thanks.
This is why the wise man builds his house upon the rock of science and empiricism, not the sands of personal 'divine' inspiration.
-
- Apprentice
- Posts: 102
- Joined: Sun Apr 20, 2014 11:06 pm
Post #47
So back on topic...
... Is the existence of the bible evidence against an all powerful god having a message he wants all to know?
If you say that reading the bible with an open heart will lead you on the right path, I have to ask you, do you say that all of those millions of people who find a different sect and interpret the book differently than you do, liars? That would be a whole lot of dishonesty.
... Is the existence of the bible evidence against an all powerful god having a message he wants all to know?
If you say that reading the bible with an open heart will lead you on the right path, I have to ask you, do you say that all of those millions of people who find a different sect and interpret the book differently than you do, liars? That would be a whole lot of dishonesty.
- dianaiad
- Site Supporter
- Posts: 10220
- Joined: Sun Oct 24, 2010 12:30 pm
- Location: Southern California
Post #48
Moderator WarningJustin108 wrote:Then what the hell are you doing on this forum? If you make claims but blatantly refuse to support them then it's considered preaching, which is against forum rulesttruscott wrote: I can do that but first I want you to tell me why I must go to the work to provide these verses which as an atheist you will just ignore or reject anyway??? You have no respect for scripture so why test me like this? I love answering Christians with scripture but for an atheist this seems like a waste of my time, ???
Do not use profanity on this forum. Do not attempt to moderate. If you believe that a post is violating the rules, report it, do not attack the writer of it.
Please review our Rules.
______________
Moderator warnings count as a strike against users. Additional violations in the future may warrant a final warning. Any challenges or replies to moderator postings should be made via Private Message to avoid derailing topics.
- dianaiad
- Site Supporter
- Posts: 10220
- Joined: Sun Oct 24, 2010 12:30 pm
- Location: Southern California
Post #49
Moderator Warningttruscott wrote:I can do that but first I want you to tell me why I must go to the work to provide these verses which as an atheist you will just ignore or reject anyway??? You have no respect for scripture so why test me like this? I love answering Christians with scripture but for an atheist this seems like a waste of my time, ???Justin108 wrote:Please back this with scripturettruscott wrote: By their free will some have destroyed their capacity to understand spiritual things. GOD did not make this happen by anything within their creation...it all happened because they chose by their free will that which they knew might cause it to happen (rejecting HIM and so becoming evil in HIS sight), but thought that it was better to put their faith for eternal happiness into rejecting HIM as a false god and HIS promise of salvation as lies.
Some sinners HE can work with and bring them back to faith in HIS reality but others chose by their free will to be outside of HIS reality forever and cannot be brought back in by anything.
You are under no obligation to respond to any post. You are expected to substantiate any claims you make, and you are expected to refrain from making personal, negative comments about the writer of a post.
Please review our Rules.
______________
Moderator warnings count as a strike against users. Additional violations in the future may warrant a final warning. Any challenges or replies to moderator postings should be made via Private Message to avoid derailing topics.
- ttruscott
- Site Supporter
- Posts: 11064
- Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 5:09 pm
- Location: West Coast of Canada
- Been thanked: 3 times
Re: Existence of Holy Books as Evidence Against Their Claims
Post #50Very acceptable indeed, IF the rock of science and empiricism could in fact teach us spiritual things. It cannot even deal with 95% of the physical world and since it has nothing to say about the spiritual world, we who are in the Spirit must take our clues from the Spirit: 1 John 4:1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2 By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God; etc, etc.Danmark wrote:The problem is that once you accept the idea that man can interpret the thoughts of God and write them down in a book, Infinite One's words have exactly the same validity as any book in the Bible.ttruscott wrote:But then all evil comes from the thoughts of GOD. Sorry, my GOD is a GOD of love who has no wickedness in HIM. HE is light with no darkness. Brackish water cannot come from a well of pure sweet water. Your definition fits an Eastern expression of their false god more than it does the Christian YHWH.Infinite One wrote: ...
God set up different kinds of thoughts. The thoughts man thinks with are called Satan and the Beast. The thoughts that He has His prophets and saints write and speak are not from Satan and the Beast. We refer to these thoughts as Christ or the Son of God, Spirit of God, Kingdom of God, Kingdom of Heaven, Kingdom of the Spirit, Holy Spirit, etc. ...
Thanks for sharing...but no thanks.
This is why the wise man builds his house upon the rock of science and empiricism, not the sands of personal 'divine' inspiration.
imCo
One must seek GOD and then listen to learn understanding, not seek to understand the world so as to find GOD.
PCE Theology as I see it...
We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.
This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.
We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.
This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.