JEALOUSY: A good attribute in a god?

[2Dbunk]

Exodus 20:5
You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me,

The above is strong stuff. In a land that cherishes the choices Capitalism has provided us with, and Freedom beyond "free will," we Americans welcome competition. But the Abrahamic God would proscribe that right and, in the face of our Constitution, punish offender's children thru the 3rd and 4th generation. IMO that's a bit harsh for children to suffer for something they had no say or control about. IMO this, alone, points to human authorship of the Bible, as flawed as this command is.

1) Is it necessary for God to be jealous in light of the fact he has given us free will and has access to everything there is anyway?

2) Is it necessary for God to be jealous at all?

[2Dbunk]

[Replying to ttruscott]

Of course HE knows how bad it is going to get for us if we follow the false gods and how much suffering we will both get and cause, but we do not know this!!! It is a characteristic of the immature that we do not understand the ramififications and outcomes of of our emotionally driven desires because we know we are so superior in our intellect and reasoning abilities because Dad is obviously outdated and such a loser.

And when we demand the right to go our own way and give HIM the proverbial finger, is it not proper for HIM to remind us, "I AM YOUR FATHER and I am emotionally involved with your bad decisions and until you mature so you can fight this seduction on your own, MY WILL IS SACROSANCT and I will not allow any other to seduce you to be under his control except over my dead body!???

I've read your two posts, the first being your scenario. We are talking about two different things here. You are talking about a potential felon and I'm talking about non-theist's LOGICAL apostasy. Felons are against Civil Law as well as your god's law. Apostasy is NOT against Civil Law (at least not yet here in America). In case
you've forgotten your high school Civics or Problems in Democracy, let me remind you that apostasy is protected by the U.S. Constitution's first amendment. No matter how big your god, he carries no weight in an American court room. Testimony in the Bible is relegated to hearsay and is inadmissible.

If religious canons are not admissible in a court of Civil Law, why does your god demand his jealousy to be honored knowing full well that he is impotent in the court room (and indeed in the public schools). "MY WILL IS SACROSANCT" is really your for-barers' words because, my friend, he/she/it has not been proven to exist! It is probably too late for you to rethink your options,but then, that is your Cross to bare.

[OnceConvinced]

The problem only arises with the English word, jealousy.

Seeing that the bible has been translated into English, surely we should be able to accept that the English translators used the correct word?

Immediately those who do not know GOD think of sexual and love jealousy and freewill which puts them off track.

Seeing as it's an English translation, we should be going by the correct English meaning of it:

feeling or showing an envious resentment of someone or their achievements, possessions, or perceived advantages.
"she was always jealous of me"

feeling or showing a resentful suspicion that one's partner is attracted to or involved with someone else.
"a jealous husband"

fiercely protective of one's rights or possessions.
"the men were proud of their achievements and jealous of their independence"

The kind of jealousy that is used to GOD is not love or sexual jealousy but is the jealousy that is best described in this scenario...

Surely you should be able to give us a legitimate dictionary meaning of the word "jealousy"? One that is not a matter of wishful thinking or trying to fit with preconceived ideas about God?

Imagine yourself as a quintessential Father, doting and protective. And then your 13 year old daughter comes home telling you that "you are an old fashioned fat head and her boyfriend who has (fill in the cultural expression of criminal rebellion of your choice) is at least honest about his affiliations. Besides, criminal activity is sometimes necessary when you are oppressed by society and cannot buy your own special brand of medicine! So what if he is 22, he loves me!"

What loving Father would not take a stand against this false friend who is obviously manipulating her to his selfish ends?

We are not some teenagers. We are independent adults. No father should be acting that way with their adult children. An adult father should be able to let go and allow them to live their own life. They can give advice, they can offer to be there, but they can't force their adult child to do what they want, even if it is for their own good.

Sure go ahead and make up a new scenario that speaks against the conclusions of my scenario but if you ever find yourself in my scenario and IF the daughter is seduced more and more into his criminal life style, you may find yourself making dumb-butt statements like, "Because I am your Father!!" Even if you know that will aggravate the realtionship AND you just may start thinking of murder as a possibility if it gets bad enough.

Would you as a father threaten to punish your daughter's descendants up until the 3rd or 4th generation for not listening to him? For not following your advice? For not doing what you say?

The father who thinks of murder when an immature family member is being stolen away from the family by seduction is natural and is expressed exactly by the word jealous...jealous of his prerogatives and status as the loving Father who is to be her protector from such villains at least until she can make up her own mind as an intellectually and emotionally mature person.

A father needs to let go of their teenager, once that teenager becomes an adult. We are not teenagers, like I said. We are full grown adults. Many of us very mature. We should be able to expect that our father will let us go, let us do our own things and let us make our own mistakes. We would not expect him to be such a control freak. We would certainly not expect him to make our children suffer because of our rebellion. Or our grand children. Or our great grand children.

So blather on about what your wife might want and all you want is her happiness and put those words on your 12 year old son belong seduced into a gang because they understand me! and then tell me if that is what he wants, well, then his happiness is all you want.

Your scenario falls completely flat due to the fact that we are not all 13 year old girls. A more realistic scenario would be that the daughter is 31 ... maybe even 61.

You may be angry, you may be upset,. but as a father you have to let your adult children follow their own path in life. They must be allowed to make their mistakes. You can't be a control freak and you certainly don't take your frustrations out on your daughter's children because they don't listen to you or obey you.

[Peds nurse]

PN wrote ( Post #12)

I see God in nature. I suppose, the difference is what we are tuned in to. I am tuned into God's spirit. When I see a flower, I think of it's beautiful color, and the splendor of its beauty. This takes me to a verse where it tells us to not worry. If God clothes the flowers in such beauty, will he not meet our needs as well? So, I say a thank you to God, for his provisions in my life. [/quote]

Being a nurse, you took biology, right? Many of these things that appear beautiful can pretty much be explained in photosynthesis, soil condition, rainwater fertilizer or lack thereof. If a god is the provider of these things for our benefit, why would he provide equally beautiful things where there are no people? Coral reefs far away from people; colorful flora and fauna at depths that humans cannot survive? These are not provided for just our benefit; they are part of this planet's biosphere that relies so much on the warmth of the Sun. These things can be enjoyed without the self-centeredness (Him speaking directly to each one of us) like you experinced.

Hey Mr. 2DBunk!! I hope you are having a fantastic day!

Why does science have to disprove God? Just because we know what makes a flower colorful, doesn't mean that God didn't create it to happen. There is beauty everywhere, and how do we know that someone doesn't see it? Some one dove down into the depths of the sea to experience it, correct? The beauty of the ocean, and the order there, is far more convincing of God's hand, than random chance.

He speaks to me through everyday things, situations, and people. Once I remember walking, and I asked God to give me a glimpse of how much he loves his people. I was so overwhelmed with love, but for a brief second, that I couldn't even breathe. It brought me to my knees.

You have the makings to be a shaman! No kidding, reading in World Religions, shaman is described as one exhibiting extraordinary recognition of Spirits. How many do you know that experience similar conditions? Not very many I bet. You may be gifted in bringing on delusions of euphoria psychologically. Of course, I'm only guessing. But people do enhance sincere personal beliefs all the time -- we all do.

I really don't mind what you want to call it...me experiencing God through various things/events. My relationship with God isn't for other people, although I hope they benefit

My daughter is a nature person...not really a God person. I told her that we can find God in nature, and we take him with us when we leave. If it is just nature, we leave it there, to visit again.

Evidently shamanism isn't an inherited trait in your situation. Sure we can take a natural scene with us . . . in our memory or in a photograph.

We can take an image...but not its presence. We can take our experience in nature, that can bring us closer to God, and we take His presence with us.

PN wrote ( Post #24):

He created us, and wants to have a faithful relationship with him, so that he can shower his love upon us, and direct us in the way we should go.

OC wrote:
But why would this god who is so all together, complete and perfect ever be concerned with this sort of thing?


This is because He loves us with an everlasting love, it is a love that we cannot even grasp. If we, who are only human, can love and want someone to be faithful to us based on that love, think of God..with even more love. He wants and desires to be a part of our lives.

OC wrote:
He doesn't need our faith or our love. He has plenty of other wives he can share is love with. Why get all wrathful and angry about those who don't?

I agree with OC. It sounds like your god is a child that hasn't grown up: ". . . play my way or I'm taking my ball and going home," if it were so innocuous -- instead he blasts: ". . . DO IT MY WAY OR YOU WILL BURN IN HELL FOR ETERNITY." That sounds pretty psychotic to me. I certainly don't see any love in his intentions (they really are a form of blackmail). The message of love is on condition of a threat that is hardly veiled!

.
I fear we are the one's who fail to grow up. God does not ask us for anything that we are unable to give. God doesn't just demand that we love him without cause. We learn to love him, to follow him, and to have faith.

I have plenty of children, why would I get upset if only one of them rejected me as a parent? It matters because he doesn't want anyone to perish. It matters because he sent his son to the cross for all. It matters because he wishes to be separated from no one.

Why does anybody have to perish? "He" has put an additional burden on us to "love Him -- for what?" We didn't ask "Him" to be born (in whatever situation we found ourselves born into). That is so brutish for "Him" to threaten us -- why can't "He" just leave us alone to find our own way to a better life? I know I did -- it's such a rush to know that one can lift oneself by their own bootstraps and make a successful life!

You were born because I believe Mr. 2DBunk, that you have a purpose on this earth. We can choose to have whatever life we want on this earth, so with that, I agree. If we choose not to have life with him here, how can we justify our fate in the hereafter?

I would never wish for someone to perish (other than some politicians that want to have there way with me). That's why I say God doesn't exist -- how can I have more empathy than a god?

God says he wishes none to perish, and as a matter of fact (or opinion on this forum), God went to a lot of trouble to ensure that doesn't have to happen.

Have the most beautiful day
------------------------------------------------------
Islam is ALL that a religion can be![/quote]

[H.sapiens]

I see God in nature. I suppose, the difference is what we are tuned in to. I am tuned into God's spirit. When I see a flower, I think of it's beautiful color, and the splendor of its beauty. This takes me to a verse where it tells us to not worry. If God clothes the flowers in such beauty, will he not meet our needs as well? So, I say a thank you to God, for his provisions in my life.

...

Why does science have to disprove God? Just because we know what makes a flower colorful, doesn't mean that God didn't create it to happen. There is beauty everywhere, and how do we know that someone doesn't see it? Some one dove down into the depths of the sea to experience it, correct? The beauty of the ocean, and the order there, is far more convincing of God's hand, than random chance.

...

He speaks to me through everyday things, situations, and people. Once I remember walking, and I asked God to give me a glimpse of how much he loves his people. I was so overwhelmed with love, but for a brief second, that I couldn't even breathe. It brought me to my knees.

Unlike you, I have been to the bottom of the sea, many, many times. The real point is that concepts such as "god" are just unnecessary noise in the system that prevents clear vision and thinking and that confusticate "truth" by providing simplistic answers thus obviating a complete understanding of nature's beauty and function. A detailed understanding of natural selection and evolutionary stable solutions are worth far more both in terms of usefulness and aesthetic appreciation than all the hosannas, hallelujahs, yea Gods, and hail Marys that have been served up since the beginning of time.

Besides, you've got it backward, there is no need to "disprove" God, in fact, it is quite impossible to prove a negative and thus it is absurd to attempt or suggest that it be done.

[ttruscott]

[Replying to post 41 by 2Dbunk]

You are arguing the failure of the analogy to be real. It does not reflect human reality but it does reflect a manner of thinking even the most jaded person can sympathize with.

Arguing against the analogy is fruitless and meaningless.

[ttruscott]

[Replying to post 42 by OnceConvinced]

I have nothing against the word as translated as jealousy at all if you might read again. I reject the non-believers interpretation of the MEANING of the word in the Scriptural context from a secular pov, as is fair.

Jealous fits my analogy better than it fits secular jealsousy as a loss of love interest which destroys the meaning of the bible the very reason secular non-believers like to point it out. GOD cannot go against GOD so therefore HE cannot claim to be loving and yet be unlovingly jealous. BUT HE can love HIS elect and be jealous of their safety from pagan seduction.

[Peds nurse]

I see God in nature. I suppose, the difference is what we are tuned in to. I am tuned into God's spirit. When I see a flower, I think of it's beautiful color, and the splendor of its beauty. This takes me to a verse where it tells us to not worry. If God clothes the flowers in such beauty, will he not meet our needs as well? So, I say a thank you to God, for his provisions in my life.

...

Why does science have to disprove God? Just because we know what makes a flower colorful, doesn't mean that God didn't create it to happen. There is beauty everywhere, and how do we know that someone doesn't see it? Some one dove down into the depths of the sea to experience it, correct? The beauty of the ocean, and the order there, is far more convincing of God's hand, than random chance.

...

He speaks to me through everyday things, situations, and people. Once I remember walking, and I asked God to give me a glimpse of how much he loves his people. I was so overwhelmed with love, but for a brief second, that I couldn't even breathe. It brought me to my knees.

Unlike you, I have been to the bottom of the sea, many, many times. The real point is that concepts such as "god" are just unnecessary noise in the system that prevents clear vision and thinking and that confusticate "truth" by providing simplistic answers thus obviating a complete understanding of nature's beauty and function. A detailed understanding of natural selection and evolutionary stable solutions are worth far more both in terms of usefulness and aesthetic appreciation than all the hosannas, hallelujahs, yea Gods, and hail Marys that have been served up since the beginning of time.

You are obviously very intelligent H.S., and I gather a lover of science. I am not undermining science, and the usefulness that gives to humanity. Spiritually however, it gives nothing, and that my friend is worth more than science can offer in a millennium.

Besides, you've got it backward, there is no need to "disprove" God, in fact, it is quite impossible to prove a negative and thus it is absurd to attempt or suggest that it be done.

I am going to be honest here, HS, and probably show my ineptness at debate (which I am sure is already known), but why does God have to be the negative?

Have the most wonderful night

[2Dbunk]

[Replying to post 43 by Peds nurse]


Hi Peds, thanks, I had a wonderful day and it's beautiful outside.

I think you are a hopeless romantic, and I thought I was bad! Your love of your god is stupendous -- I can see any argument I present falls on convinced ears. Why do we argue when neither of us are unshakeable? However, here is my best effort (mostly to those out there who may sitting on the fence of indecision, pondering like I once pondered, the truth of it all).

Yes, I think we can carry the presence of a natural scene, in our memory and reinforce it by a photo of same.

I fear we are the one's who fail to grow up. God does not ask us for anything that we are unable to give. God doesn't just demand that we love him without cause. We learn to love him, to follow him, and to have faith.

I'm 76 and if I'm not grown up by now, I never will be. In my life I have experienced different degrees of what you say and then I traveled the world and have seen many things that were quite disturbing. Comparing the fore and after pictures of my experience I have concluded that the many bickering gods out there do not deserve my attention. Science was my field of study with a tantalizing mix of liberal arts. History and biographies and auto-biographies have seasoned my experience. Raising two children and a second marriage added to same. So I measure maturity by the weltanshauung of my experience. In my opinion, the autrhor(s) of the Bible just don't cut it! Too much ambiguity -- too little hands-on understanding -- a mish-mash of mumbo jumbo that only an ecclesiastic expert can properly? interpret. I found LOVE and Nirvana and it wasn't in that tome!

[Peds nurse]

[Replying to post 48 by 2Dbunk]

Hey Mr. 2DBunk! Thanks so much for your reply. I feel very grateful to be among such wonderful people.

It amazes me, how experiences can lead us to different paths. I didn't know God until I was 30. I found my life to be dull and void, despite being married (and still am) to a wonderful man. When I found God, I didn't bite, hook, line, and sinker. I thought about it, and it made perfect sense to me. I gradually entered the best relationship of my life. I wonder if non believers think that they have to love God before they experience Him? That would seem rather impossible to me.

Have a blessed evening, my friend!

[2Dbunk]

[Replying to post 45 by ttruscott]

Hi ttruscott,

You are arguing the failure of the analogy to be real. It does not reflect human reality but it does reflect a manner of thinking even the most jaded person can sympathize with.

Arguing against the analogy is fruitless and meaningless.

I AM GROUNDED IN REALITY !! You, my friend , are on cloud nine. Reality is all we have. You may think you have earned eternal bliss but I don't see that as a proven future. Doesn't the internecine bickering of different sects move you? It moves me to a great degree of disgust.

You are right, arguing with you is fruitless and meaningless.