Where did Christ go?

[marco]

In Acts 1 we have:

And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold two men stood by them in white apparel.

Which also said: Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus which is taken up from you into heaven shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.


The above raises a few questions.

Does the location of heaven in the sky suggest the story is mere fabrication?
In what possible way could Jesus physically vanish above the clouds?
Is the appearance of "two men" in white simply a "deus ex machina" device to explain what happened - at least partially?
Would listeners reasonably suppose that the return of Jesus is more than 2000 years away?
A reasonable person would dismiss all this as nonsense. But why, then, has it been accepted for centuries?

[marco]

The bible describes Jesus as being in heaven at the right hand of God. Heaven as used in this context (Mark 16:19, Acts 7:55-56) is referring to the spiritual dimension of heaven, not our physical realm.

You cannot have it every way. If we talk about "right hand of the Father" we are introducing personages and physical positions. There is no doubt whatsoever that the simple apostles thought Jesus was ascending physically into a physical heaven. That is the context.

[KingandPriest]

[Replying to post 33 by KingandPriest]

We still have a problem no matter the context.
Remember, we're dealing (supposedly) with a Jesus who has a physical body like you and I, just one that was previously dead and is now back to life. It occupies a position in space-time, like you and I. It is corporeal, like you and I.
If you state that Jesus flew above the clouds, beyond the sight of mortal men, we then have to ask...where did he go? Is he still in orbit? Doubtful...we've had satellites in orbit for decades, and so far, Jesus hasn't appeared on any photo or video of the Earth.

Maybe Jesus left orbit and flew off into outer space, like Superman is seen to do in various DC media? This though suffers from the problem of Russell's Teapot - he could be there, but given the size of his human body, is undetectable.

I suppose then we could say that Jesus just simply shifted dimensions or some such - he now resides in the same dimension or supernatural realm God resides in. Problem here though, is that when this realm is talked about in other discussions, I've been told it's a realm outside space and time. So I'm scratching my head wondering how a body that can exist in normal 4 dimensional space time can just...exist there? It's a body that requires space and time to exist, and yet he's in a place that doesn't have either of those?

The bible describes Jesus as being in heaven at the right hand of God. Heaven as used in this context (Mark 16:19, Acts 7:55-56) is referring to the spiritual dimension of heaven, not our physical realm.

And...? Sorry to say, but this reply doesn't add anything to my reply. I already talked about what heaven supposedly is, as related to me by Christians over the years. I already described heaven as supposedly outside our space-time and the problems with that regarding physical bodies.

Ask the physicists who postulate about a multiverse.

The concept that Christians have understood for a long time is just recently being seriously studied.

The structure of the multiverse, the nature of each universe within it, and the relationships among these universes differ from one multiverse hypothesis to another.
So the structure of our 4 dimensions may exist in another dimension in a different form. It is possible that this other variations of physics exists which can support physical life. As of now, it is just theoretical, but a concept that physicists deem genuine enough to devote massive amounts of time and money towards.

Is it possible that the same dimension that Christians have described as heaven exists and science has yet to figure out details?

[marco]

Is it possible that the same dimension that Christians have described as heaven exists and science has yet to figure out details?

It is possible that what Christians and others believed for centuries is utter rubbish. Hijacking n-dimensional theory to explain the Nativity, Resurrection and Ascension is a good idea - but let's throw out the absurdities too, starting with Yahweh, else we are in danger of turning Revelation into an advanced mathematical text book.

[KingandPriest]

Is it possible that the same dimension that Christians have described as heaven exists and science has yet to figure out details?

It is possible that what Christians and others believed for centuries is utter rubbish. Hijacking n-dimensional theory to explain the Nativity, Resurrection and Ascension is a good idea - but let's throw out the absurdities too, starting with Yahweh, else we are in danger of turning Revelation into an advanced mathematical text book.

Sounds like you are introducing your bias or disdain for God. Not the first or the last.

What cartographers presented as world maps is known to be rubbish, but these are still used in classrooms today. We know our maps that depict western and european countries as larger than Africa are false, and yet still these known falsehoods are taught. The bible though disputed has not been proven to be a known falsehood. There is still a vast amount of historical evidence and personal accounts of activity all over the world today. Just because you don't like something does not make it no longer true.

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 41 by KingandPriest]

It is possible that this other variations of physics exists which can support physical life. As of now, it is just theoretical, but a concept that physicists deem genuine enough to devote massive amounts of time and money towards.

And yet...you seem to be leapfrogging the scientific research and already believe this dimension or alternate 'verse exists.

Is it possible that the same dimension that Christians have described as heaven exists and science has yet to figure out details?

Depends on what entirely the Christians describe. Scientists can't really do much with descriptions like "outside space time" or "a place where no evil dwelleth" or some such phrase.
Basically...what are scientists supposed to look for and check against when they are quite literally being told about a utopia?

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 43 by KingandPriest]

I suggest you be careful with your phraseology. I am not aware of any maps showing European countries to be larger than Africa - examples please? Note that there is a difference between nations and continents.

As for marco's supposed bias or disdain for God - careful. The same charge of bias can be levied at you, in that you are suggesting (in your posts towards myself) to having a bias towards the idea of a heaven where God dwells, before a scientific consensus has been reached.

Just because you don't like something does not make it no longer true.

Be very careful with phrases like this. Consider the contrapositive of it. Consider what happens if I strip it of all but one of its negative words to turn it into a positive phrase, such that it now reads
"Just because you like something does not make it true"
This describes your position and thus, your own original phrase can be applied to you just as much.

[KingandPriest]

[Replying to post 45 by rikuoamero]

I suggest you be careful with your phraseology. I am not aware of any maps showing European countries to be larger than Africa - examples please? Note that there is a difference between nations and continents.

Just google the term world map and see what comes up.
Here are a few:
http://geology.com/world/world-map.shtml
http://www.mapsofworld.com/world-map-image.html
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/ ... -data.html

Take a look at a map today, and youre likely to see that North America is larger than Africa, Alaska is larger than Mexico and China is smaller than Greenland.
But in reality China is four times bigger than Greenland, Africa is three times bigger than North America and Mexico is larger than Alaska.
The distortion is the result of the Mercator projection, the map most commonly seen hanging in classrooms and in text books, which was created in 1596 to help sailors navigate the world.

Even though our satellite images prove our maps incorrect, the maps used in the western world schools are still wrong. By comparative scale, the continent of Africa is reduced in size while north america and europe appear larger.

As for marco's supposed bias or disdain for God - careful. The same charge of bias can be levied at you, in that you are suggesting (in your posts towards myself) to having a bias towards the idea of a heaven where God dwells, before a scientific consensus has been reached.

When it comes to describing heaven, I am only stating that context should not be ignored. If you interpret a text incorrectly because of a lack of context, I try to point out the error. I did not provide bias in providing the different definitions for the term heaven as found in the bible. I am just pointing out what was actually written.

Be very careful with phrases like this. Consider the contrapositive of it. Consider what happens if I strip it of all but one of its negative words to turn it into a positive phrase, such that it now reads
"Just because you like something does not make it true"
This describes your position and thus, your own original phrase can be applied to you just as much.

I agree, just because I like something does not make it true. It is a fair statement.

Marco posed the initial question, and I just wanted to step in and show the question appeared to contain a flaw in understanding of the word heaven.

[marco]

Sounds like you are introducing your bias or disdain for God. Not the first or the last.

I have no disdain for God. I was referring to Yahweh.

What cartographers presented as world maps is known to be rubbish, but these are still used in classrooms today. We know our maps that depict western and european countries as larger than Africa are false, and yet still these known falsehoods are taught. The bible though disputed has not been proven to be a known falsehood. There is still a vast amount of historical evidence and personal accounts of activity all over the world today. Just because you don't like something does not make it no longer true.

I can't see where you are going with your information on cartographers. I have the greatest admiration for men like Mercator who by intense study made charts of the known world. The Carthaginians built ships that Rome copied. Early explorers were brave men as are our astronauts. It is ludicrous to compare this with biblical nonsense. Do you honestly suppose a couple of angels wandered into Sodom and Lot's wife became a salt pillar? Or God got upset when Abraham's wife giggled at the news she would bear a child when she should have been dying of old age?

I honour the people of the past who made our civilisation what it is. I hold in contempt the advice that tells us to kill old women we suspect of witchcraft.

[KingandPriest]

[Replying to post 47 by marco]

I have no disdain for God. I was referring to Yahweh.

Correct me if I am wrong. This subforum is Christianity and Apologetics, where the topic is debating for or against Christianity. I think a safe assumption on this subforum is that God in question would be the one described in the bible, unless otherwise noted.

The bible makes multiple claims that Yahweh is God. So if you say you have disdain for Yahweh isn't it the same as saying you have disdain for God.

If I have leaped to a conclusion, I apologize, but on this subforum, I though we were specifically talking about Yahweh.

I can't see where you are going with your information on cartographers. I have the greatest admiration for men like Mercator who by intense study made charts of the known world. The Carthaginians built ships that Rome copied. Early explorers were brave men as are our astronauts. It is ludicrous to compare this with biblical nonsense. Do you honestly suppose a couple of angels wandered into Sodom and Lot's wife became a salt pillar? Or God got upset when Abraham's wife giggled at the news she would bear a child when she should have been dying of old age?

You have the greatest appreciation for people who made maps that were incorrectly scaled on purpose.
The Mercator projection, the map most commonly seen hanging in classrooms and in text books, was created in 1596 to help sailors navigate the world. The familiar map gives the right shapes of land masses, but at the cost of distorting their sizes in favor of the wealthy lands to the north.

Even today with modern technology, we can make more accurate maps but choose to use the the maps that show western lands as more significant (size) than they really are.

Do you appreciate false teaching?
Check out any of these links of current popular world maps:
http://geology.com/world/world-map.shtml
http://www.mapsofworld.com/world-map-image.html
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/ ... oure-looki...

I honour the people of the past who made our civilisation what it is. I hold in contempt the advice that tells us to kill old women we suspect of witchcraft.

Sometimes these people you honour are the same who you hold in contempt. The same contributers to science and society also practiced bigotry.

[marco]

Even today with modern technology, we can make more accurate maps but choose to use the the maps that show western lands as more significant (size) than they really are.

Do you appreciate false teaching?

I was alarmed at first when you said our maps were wrong that my plane might not take me to my next trans-Atlantic destination. But it seems that the maps serve their purposes perfectly on the seas and in the air.

I don't think there's any false teaching by our good geography teachers and if indeed Europe seems to be depicted larger than its physical size, it is nothing more than a reflection of political reality. When Africa becomes Europe (or more likely when Europe becomes Africa) the maps will change, no doubt.

Good grief - we are supposed to be asking where Christ went? Do you suppose one of these badly drawn maps misled him, and he's stuck somewhere in an African jungle or a Brazilian rain forest?