A question for christians

[thenormalyears]

You believe in a God that is all knowing, he knows the past, present and the future, correct?

[McCulloch]

Have you ever read Mere Christianity, by C.S. Lewis?

Yes, Clive is one of the more thoughtful Christian writers. I would have thought that this Anglican writer ultimately too liberal for your taste.

God is already in the future as He is outside of the "thing."

Yes, that is my understanding of the Christian view of God.

A good lawyer does not get you forgiven. Nor does a good lawyer agree to take the punishment for you.

You are either innocent or not. A good lawyer proves that.

Odd. I thought that before the judgement seat of an omniscient God, there would be no need to prove anything. According to Christian thought, we are all guilty and God, the judge, already knows that.

Christian theology does not paint Jesus as a really great lawyer.

because he is the Judge, not (just) the lawyer in Christian "theology."

So exactly what role does he play as lawyer? The Judge already knows that the accused is guilty.

He is the ultimate scapegoat, the substitutionary sacrifice. This, however, is a concept quite agreeable to the ancients which to modern morality seems quite unjust.

The Israelites are some of those "ancients" are they not? They rejected the slaughtered Messiah "thing."

Did they reject the idea of substitutionary sacrifice or did they reject Jesus as the required sacrifice?

It is also a concept quite hard for modern man to grasp as well I see.

I wonder why that might be.
"Hey Judge, I'm really sorry that I killed that guy. But, you know, you kinda like me and this other guy, who hasn't killed anyone is willing to take my punishment for me. What do you say?"
You tell me what we would think of a Judge who would accept such an offer.

[1John2_26]

1John2_26 wrote:
Have you ever read Mere Christianity, by C.S. Lewis?
Yes, Clive is one of the more thoughtful Christian writers. I would have thought that this Anglican writer ultimately too liberal for your taste.

I so enjoy the presumptions you and your club members have of my Christian views. They are orthodox. They are rational. Clive and I will get along when we meet. I just wonder why the anti-Christian has to go to such lengths to go after us? Why not just walk away?

1John2_26 wrote:
God is already in the future as He is outside of the "thing."
Yes, that is my understanding of the Christian view of God.

Why is it such a hard concept? Isn't time just relativity?

McCulloch wrote:
A good lawyer does not get you forgiven. Nor does a good lawyer agree to take the punishment for you.
1John2_26 wrote:
You are either innocent or not. A good lawyer proves that.

Odd. I thought that before the judgement seat of an omniscient God, there would be no need to prove anything.

Belief in Christ is "all." That would be the "Christian" view. You know that McCulloch.

According to Christian thought, we are all guilty and God, the judge, already knows that.

Christ is the Judge. Thank God. It isn;t all that hard a concept this Christian thing. I like its influence even on the most vitriolic of adversaries. The no killing of Christians ones.

McCulloch wrote:
Christian theology does not paint Jesus as a really great lawyer.
1John2_26 wrote:
because he is the Judge, not (just) the lawyer in Christian "theology."

So exactly what role does he play as lawyer? The Judge already knows that the accused is guilty.

I didn't make up the God of the Bible. I just believe in the case on logical grounds. Looking around at past present and future, we just ain't gunna get it done peacefully.

McCulloch wrote:
He is the ultimate scapegoat, the substitutionary sacrifice. This, however, is a concept quite agreeable to the ancients which to modern morality seems quite unjust.
1John2_26 wrote:
The Israelites are some of those "ancients" are they not? They rejected the slaughtered Messiah "thing."

Did they reject the idea of substitutionary sacrifice or did they reject Jesus as the required sacrifice?

Both. how many times did the Israelites "go after foreign gods?" Just a cursory viewing of the prophets gives us a picture of the Israelite history that brought us Christ Jesus (Messiah Yeshua)>

1John2_26 wrote:
It is also a concept quite hard for modern man to grasp as well I see.

I wonder why that might be.
"Hey Judge, I'm really sorry that I killed that guy. But, you know, you kinda like me and this other guy, who hasn't killed anyone is willing to take my punishment for me. What do you say?"

You are the far more liberal person between us McCulloch. Put your views into practice. Guilty people should be convicted and hanged that same moment. I'm thinking you see my point. I don't believe in the death penality all that much. A person may grow a conscience and know what he has done is wrong. It may indeed affect others. See how it works?

You tell me what we would think of a Judge who would accept such an offer.

The One that came down from His throne and died in my place? That Judge?

I worship Him.

[McCulloch]

According to Christian thought, we are all guilty and God, the judge, already knows that.

Christ is the Judge. Thank God.

God (Christ) is the Judge. Thank God (Trinity). ??

I didn't make up the God of the Bible.

But you did use the rather unbiblical metaphor of Jesus the defence lawyer.

I wonder why that might be.
"Hey Judge, I'm really sorry that I killed that guy. But, you know, you kinda like me and this other guy, who hasn't killed anyone is willing to take my punishment for me. What do you say?"
You tell me what we would think of a Judge who would accept such an offer.

The One that came down from His throne and died in my place? That Judge?
I worship Him.

No. I meant a human judge. If a judge did that, he would be, quite rightly, removed from the bench. The idea of a substitutionary sacrifice is a bad one. We would not tollerate it in our own society. But Christians praise the same idea when applied to their God. Why the double standard?
OK, I get the point about the Judge himself being the sacrifice, so let me change the question.

Killer: "Hey Judge, I'm really sorry that I killed that guy and I believe that you like me."
Judge: "I really like you. I'll take your punishment for you. You're free to go."
You tell me what we would think of a human judge who would accept such an offer.

[Cathar1950]

Why is it such a hard concept? Isn't time just relativity?

No time is relative. There is a difference.

Belief in Christ is "all." That would be the "Christian" view. You know that McCulloch.

In another thread you wrote the opposite. Which is it going to be?

Thinking very hard is the only way you can believe in God.

And the only "way to become" a Christian.

[Believer]

If every human ever born has sinned, then what about the humans that lived a hundred thousand years ago and up until only a few thousand years ago? They had no idea of Christianity. Will they be found guily and punished? Or is it ok that they probably held other religious ideas and god(s)?

Again read Romans 1-2. These chapters deal with this exact same question. There are many theories about this, but my theory is that those who died prior to Jesus, and those who died not ever hearing the name of Jesus, will be judged on their faith in the promise of salvation.

I want to clarify something on this. This belief is my belief. I don't know who will be in heaven, or why. I don't care to know, because it's not for me to know. I do believe that from the beginning the entire thing was about a relationship with God. We were made to glorify God, to walk with God, to honor God. That relationship was broken because of sin.

Now a dude in the middle of nowhere, who has never heard of "Yhwh" or "Jesus" may still gain access to heaven. As I've said God has imprinted knowledge of Himself on our hearts, and testifies His existence through His creation and our conscience.

A guy in a remote village with many gods decides no, I don't believe there are many, and I don't believe this tree is a god. I think there's a creator who made all of this. The Holy Spirit will affirm that. He knows to keep the laws written in his heart, and he believes that this one God has found a way to bridge the gap that divides them, again the Holy Spirit will affirm that. In my opinion this man is saved because of the promise of salvation, by a God/Man Jesus, who's name he doesn't even know.

Again Abraham believed in the promises of God, and it was awarded to him as righteousness. Abraham first had to put his faith in God's promises, God did the rest.

Also, your Judge example is a bit light on how god sentences people. God is sentencing people to not just life in prison, but to eternal damnation. That's right, an eternal torment in hell for finite sins. I wouldn't wish that on anyone, I don't care what they did.

Not when you consider that man is made of 2 parts body & soul. Our body lives on this earth, and does as our minds guide it to do. While we live we have a choice of where our soul will live when the body passes away. Once our body dies our soul continues eternally with one of the two choices. Forgiven or not. Since God is eternal, then separation from Him will also be eternal, because once the body is discarded the soul has no way of choosing.

Think of it this way. Most people are kept from committing crimes for fear of being caught. The fear of being caught in the crime is what keeps people from lawlessness. What kind of judge would let a person out who uses the defense "I'm sorry your honor, but I didn't think I would be caught"? Any judge who buys that would be a pretty stupid judge. God is not dumb. He knows that a person given the choice of believing after the fact is always going to choose heaven. Using the logic of many atheists God should show Himself, prove Himself, and then show them both doors and allow them to pick one.

Why He's given us His law, He's sent prophets, ministers, missionaries all to warn us of the consequences. We know going into life what we can and cannot do. We as a society have laws, why should God allow us to break His laws, that transgress an eternal God, and then allow us to choose our punishment?

No one deserves to go to hell. The mere fact that God would created a hell is sick. Couldn't god just as easily "fix" that person, by showing them how they went wrong? Unless god isn't omnipotent. Couldn't god just end their life, sending them to neither heaven or hell for what they did? The only justification I see for sending them to hell would be that god is just sadistic and likes to have people suffer.

Hell was not created for humans. Hell was created for the devil and his demons, who rebelled against God. If someone dies in their sin they have chosen to rebel against God, and are sent along with their chosen leader
to hell.

God does not wish that any should perish, but knows that some will. He tries to get our attention through friends, our conscience, ministers, the Bible... but we don't listen. We are given a choice to turn from that which makes Him angry, to turn from sin, and accept Jesus. Some will turn from sin, and accept Jesus, some will continue along, and reach a time when all choices have been made, and they will have to continue on in spirit with those choices. Again, you may feel that your choice has already been made up for you, because God knows all, but in reality the choice is still yours.

I write software for a living, and part of the code I write involves error trapping, what happens when a user makes a wrong choice, or grouping of choices. I know what will happen when a certain action is done, but the user is completely unaware. Does that mean that I have taken away their free will? No, they still have the choice to click what they're going to click and wait for the error to pop up telling them they chose poorly.

So faith in one man who died on a cross saves you from hell and frees you from taking responsibility for your actions? Do you have any evidence that this is true?

The only "evidence" I have is that which has been given to me through my faith in Christ, and through His word. God can be taken at His word. Just like He promised Abraham a mighty nation, with descendants as great as the stars and sand, He will grant any and all who call on Him salvation from sin.

[McCulloch]

A guy in a remote village with many gods decides no, I don't believe there are many, and I don't believe this tree is a god. I think there's a creator who made all of this. The Holy Spirit will affirm that. He knows to keep the laws written in his heart, and he believes that this one God has found a way to bridge the gap that divides them, again the Holy Spirit will affirm that. In my opinion this man is saved because of the promise of salvation, by a God/Man Jesus, who's name he doesn't even know.

But a guy in 19th century North America has a far greater chance of having someone guide him to that conclusion than a girl in 14th century Damascus. God is not being very fair.

Not when you consider that man is made of 2 parts body & soul. Our body lives on this earth, and does as our minds guide it to do.

Please clarify, to which part of the human, body or soul, does the mind belong?

Think of it this way. Most people are kept from committing crimes for fear of being caught. The fear of being caught in the crime is what keeps people from lawlessness.

I've heard this claim made by Christians before. I don't quite understand it. I would not start committing crimes if I were given absolute assurance that I would not get caught. However, this is off-topic, so let's discuss it here.

What kind of judge would let a person out who uses the defense "I'm sorry your honor, but I didn't think I would be caught"? Any judge who buys that would be a pretty stupid judge. God is not dumb. He knows that a person given the choice of believing after the fact is always going to choose heaven. Using the logic of many atheists God should show Himself, prove Himself, and then show them both doors and allow them to pick one.

This is a kind of a strawman representation of atheists.

Why He's given us His law, He's sent prophets, ministers, missionaries all to warn us of the consequences. We know going into life what we can and cannot do. We as a society have laws, why should God allow us to break His laws, that transgress an eternal God, and then allow us to choose our punishment?

And that is why all the prophets, ministers, missionaries, gurus, imams, priests, bishops and rabbis all preach the same message from the same God.

I write software for a living, and part of the code I write involves error trapping, what happens when a user makes a wrong choice, or grouping of choices. I know what will happen when a certain action is done, but the user is completely unaware. Does that mean that I have taken away their free will? No, they still have the choice to click what they're going to click and wait for the error to pop up telling them they chose poorly.

Good error trapping is to design the software in such a way as to minimize the probability that the user will do something stupid. I hope that you are a better programmer than your God.

[Grumpy]

Believer

A guy in a remote village with many gods decides no, I don't believe there are many, and I don't believe this tree is a god. I think there's a creator who made all of this. The Holy Spirit will affirm that. He knows to keep the laws written in his heart, and he believes that this one God has found a way to bridge the gap that divides them, again the Holy Spirit will affirm that. In my opinion this man is saved because of the promise of salvation, by a God/Man Jesus, who's name he doesn't even know.

The belief in many gods was, for most of man's history, a "good" belief to have, according to popular understanding. We did not understand lightning, so it made sense to think a deity responsible.

The belief in a single god(actually three, plus angels and saints, etc) is "Better" acording to the thought of the times. All the unexplainables(fewer but still many)could be his "misterious ways"

The belief in a universal conciousness pervading the universe, a kind of Pantheism, is(barely) logical in a time when the "Gaps" in our scientific understanding explains most everyday "miracles" like lightning or supernovas.

I take the next logical step and accept that the "Gaps" are too small for the concept of god to have any more hiding room, but that man himself is the source for the insights of men such as Budda, Ghandi or Jesus and that it makes logical sense to study and follow their teachings in order to make our society the "Best" it has ever been(despite it's many flaws).

Man is finally learning(slowly and with setbacks) to face the reality of the universe. We are all alone on this little rock hidden in a backwater of a not too extraordinary galaxy in a rather small Local Galactic Group being pulled in a common direction with several other galactic groups toward the "Strange Attractor" we cannot see. Our civilization(which is what seperates us from the animals) is newly hatched, we are at the birth of true understanding and being able to manipulate the forces of nature, and, if we can avoid killing ourselves, the universe is ours to use as we will(until we meet others as capable as we are, then we will see if we are truly "grown-ups"), the future is limitless and will be amazing!!!

Grumpy

[Metatron]

Using the logic of many atheists God should show Himself, prove Himself, and then show them both doors and allow them to pick one.

Sure, what's wrong with that? God actually allowing us to make an INFORMED decision rather than accepting everything on faith alone? What a concept!

Instead we are supposed to ignore the lack of evidence and choose YHWH as the ONE TRUE GOD over other faith based contenders like Allah, Brahma, Odin, the Tooth Fairy, etc. And if for some reason our rational minds cannot make this leap of faith, God ignores any good that we may have done in our lives and condemns us to eternal torment. That's pretty much the epitome of evil.

[Chad]

Believer:

Again read Romans 1-2. These chapters deal with this exact same question. There are many theories about this, but my theory is that those who died prior to Jesus, and those who died not ever hearing the name of Jesus, will be judged on their faith in the promise of salvation.

I want to clarify something on this. This belief is my belief. I don't know who will be in heaven, or why. I don't care to know, because it's not for me to know. I do believe that from the beginning the entire thing was about a relationship with God. We were made to glorify God, to walk with God, to honor God. That relationship was broken because of sin.

Now a dude in the middle of nowhere, who has never heard of "Yhwh" or "Jesus" may still gain access to heaven. As I've said God has imprinted knowledge of Himself on our hearts, and testifies His existence through His creation and our conscience.

A guy in a remote village with many gods decides no, I don't believe there are many, and I don't believe this tree is a god. I think there's a creator who made all of this. The Holy Spirit will affirm that. He knows to keep the laws written in his heart, and he believes that this one God has found a way to bridge the gap that divides them, again the Holy Spirit will affirm that. In my opinion this man is saved because of the promise of salvation, by a God/Man Jesus, who's name he doesn't even know.

Again Abraham believed in the promises of God, and it was awarded to him as righteousness. Abraham first had to put his faith in God's promises, God did the rest.

I read Romans 1-2, but I'm not to sure exactly what to make of it. I found the remarks made towards homosexuality somewhat disturbing. However, I think Romans 2:12-13 do seem to cover those who are non-Christian in a sense and those who don't seem to have any knowledge of the Jesus character.

Is there a reason why God decided to leave so many people in the dark for nearly a hundred thousand years? Wouldn't God want more people to know the good word instead of having a select few finally told the “truth” and having to preach it to everyone? God definitely has some interesting laws he wants people to live by, but only tries to tell people about them a few thousand years ago?

It's interesting how God's presence in history came in times where complex writing and civilization finally start to really take off. What this really seems to point to, in my mind, is various man-made religions formed for various different reasons during the progression of human cultures. A divinely inspired holy book written some 50,000 or so years ago would definitely change my mind on this. It seems, however, that gods place in history represents our ability to write, spread information, and urge to make sense of how the world works.

Not when you consider that man is made of 2 parts body & soul. Our body lives on this earth, and does as our minds guide it to do. While we live we have a choice of where our soul will live when the body passes away. Once our body dies our soul continues eternally with one of the two choices. Forgiven or not. Since God is eternal, then separation from Him will also be eternal, because once the body is discarded the soul has no way of choosing.

Think of it this way. Most people are kept from committing crimes for fear of being caught. The fear of being caught in the crime is what keeps people from lawlessness. What kind of judge would let a person out who uses the defense "I'm sorry your honor, but I didn't think I would be caught"? Any judge who buys that would be a pretty stupid judge. God is not dumb. He knows that a person given the choice of believing after the fact is always going to choose heaven. Using the logic of many atheists God should show Himself, prove Himself, and then show them both doors and allow them to pick one.

Why He's given us His law, He's sent prophets, ministers, missionaries all to warn us of the consequences. We know going into life what we can and cannot do. We as a society have laws, why should God allow us to break His laws, that transgress an eternal God, and then allow us to choose our punishment?

Do you have any scientific evidence that the soul exists? Shouldn't this be something we need before we come to any conclusions about what happens to it after death? Your justification for god sending people for eternal torment in hell is that the separation from him is eternal. However, since god is supposedly omnipotent, should it be able to decide what is considered a fair “sentence? Eternal torment for sins in a finite lifetime is the most outrageous judgment ever. I'd compare that to me shooting someone in the face for stepping on my foot or mispronouncing my name.

I disagree that the fear of being caught is what keeps people for lawlessness. I feel sorry for those whose only reason for not committing crimes is that they might get caught. Also, if given the choice to believe after the fact I would not choose heaven. God's laws and judgments, as described by the bible, are something I could care less for.

I think your statement of the logic of atheists is nice though! God should show himself and prove himself to us. If he's not going to, he might as well shows us both doors and have us pick one. Enough beating around the bush already! How about giving is a few miracles or something? I cant think of a better time for him to show himself now that we have cameras, video recorders, and voice recording. It's an odd coincidence that god would show himself in an era where people could only count on written records and oral stories passed from one person to the next.

Hell was not created for humans. Hell was created for the devil and his demons, who rebelled against God. If someone dies in their sin they have chosen to rebel against God, and are sent along with their chosen leader
to hell.

God does not wish that any should perish, but knows that some will. He tries to get our attention through friends, our conscience, ministers, the Bible... but we don't listen. We are given a choice to turn from that which makes Him angry, to turn from sin, and accept Jesus. Some will turn from sin, and accept Jesus, some will continue along, and reach a time when all choices have been made, and they will have to continue on in spirit with those choices. Again, you may feel that your choice has already been made up for you, because God knows all, but in reality the choice is still yours.

I write software for a living, and part of the code I write involves error trapping, what happens when a user makes a wrong choice, or grouping of choices. I know what will happen when a certain action is done, but the user is completely unaware. Does that mean that I have taken away their free will? No, they still have the choice to click what they're going to click and wait for the error to pop up telling them they chose poorly.

So hell wasn't created for humans, but god decides to send us there anyway? I'm not too sure I understand. I haven't chosen to rebel against god, and my chosen leader isn't the devil ( I chuckled a little when I wrote that ), but I'd still go to hell according the scripture. Are you possibly saying the god created hell, demons, and the devil just to deceive us? That sounds more psychopathic then omnibenevolent

So, since we are given a choice, we have free will then? Using this logic, would you also agree that God really has no ultimate plan or reason for anything since we are all given these choices to make ourself? How exactly would you reconcile god's plan with our freewill? Also, how can God be omniscient but let us have freewill at the same time? If we are able to make our own choices, then god doesn't know what these choices are, correct? Are you saying god tries to act surprised at your outcome even though it's already decided?

Also, I wanted to quick comment on the software analogy. The user of the software isn't aware of the error they're making. Also, the error trap should be testing for an error condition while also providing a recovery routine. I would say that god throws the recovery routine out the door. Why would god write his code with so many errors and then judge the user based on his own faulty code?

[Believer]

So faith in one man who died on a cross saves you from hell and frees you from taking responsibility for your actions? Do you have any evidence that this is true?

But Chad, this is GOOD. You can go out and rape, kill and torment all you want. What about your best friends daughter? Yeah, she´s nice, Rape her, she´s only 8, but heck, why not? If you accepted Jesus in your Heart. You are forgiven....

Right?

You know it would stand to reason a guy named Scrotum would think first of sex. Either way. Becoming a Christian does not get you a sin all you want card. Again read Romans. It specifically covers this, sinning so that grace might abound. If a someone says that they're a Christian and then goes out and does something like that saying "Hey it's under the blood" then I'd question their conversion.