First principles

[Danmark]

Descartes famously asked 'What do we know? How do we know it?'
He started with 'cogito ergo sum,' I think therefore I am.
How do we know anything?

All religions start from the premise that a member of their tribe was told by a god that this is the truth, that there is a god. Thousands of cultures have come up with a god that is the god. How does one determine which god is true? How does one determine if there is a god?

The proposition for debate is that if there really is one true god, a real god, would not he/she/it communicate this truth to all people? Presuming a universal creator god who wants us to believe 'him/her/it' exists, wouldn't that god communicate this truth directly to all people, all cultures? Why would this god rely on a single tribe, sect, or person to present this truth to all people?

[Athetotheist]

ONLY THE GOD OF ISRAEL HAS DECLARED PROPHECIES WHICH HAVE COME TRUE. ALL ONE HAS TO DO IS LOOK TO THE JEWS / ISRAEL TO KNOW WHO IS GOD AND WHO UPHOLDS HIS TORAH TO THE NATIONS

"And when My Sanctuary abides among them forever, the nations shall know that I the LORD do sanctify Israel."--Ezekiel 37:28

This hasn't happened. From that alone, the Bible has given Gentiles no reason to believe it.

[Mithrae]

[Replying to post 41 by Athetotheist]

Perhaps Adonai has simply decided to sanctify others than Israel?

[Willum]

Yes, "I think therefore I am," is one way to start, but it is basically a strawman, as we have all lived beyond his thinking.

Therefore start with with, "We observe, we quantify, we analyze, we see if analysis allows prediction, observe predictions, if true, it is, if not, observe again."

Descartes can't get you very far.

So, yes, if Descartes reasoning were a sufficient system of logic, then God would need to communicate to everyone.
As it is, theists have a loophole.

Of course God has never been shown to be observable, quantifiable, analyzable...
As a lucky coincidence for them.

[Zzyzx]

.

I personally would start with, what the alleged God has said. And after that I would think, would I keep that one my God, if it would be true. And by that I have come to conclusion, Bible God is the only one that I would keep as my God. It really doesn’t matter do the others even exist, I wouldn’t keep them as my God.

Can you honestly say that you investigated the other gods before choosing the Bible God?

Or did you choose the Bible God then dismiss the others?

For anyone sincerely interested in comparative religion, there are courses available at many universities as well as on-line.

https://wmich.edu/religion/academics/on ... ments.html

https://wmich.edu/religion/academics/online

Be aware, however, that study of world religions may be challenging to one's preconceived notions and prior beliefs.

[Danmark]

[Replying to post 39 by Avoice]

I agree, there are many false prophesies in both the "New Testament" and in the Tanakh. Many Jews and Christians recognize the problems with these phony prophesies. At the same time zealots from both religions claim THEIR particular beliefs are the only ones that come from God. Both make typically tribal, ethnocentric claims that coincide with their specific heritage or belief systems.

Like all adherents to religion, they make the obviously bogus claim that everyone else is wrong; that THEY are the only ones who are right. These claims are laughable no matter who makes them.

[JehovahsWitness]

Why wait even the 6000 or so encompassed by the Biblical time frame?

I already answered that question.

At any rate, 6000 years is virtually all of human kind's recorded written history. If it's taken 6000 years to "settle the issues raised in Eden" why shouldn't it take 6000 more, or 200,000 for that matter?

No, its not limitless. There are various time prophecies in scripture which limit the fulfillment of the Messianic prophecues to the early part of this our 21st century. Six thousand 6000 years seems to be the limits if a biblical "day" and Gods purpose it seems will indeed be fulfilled within the limits of the last creative day (the rest day) of the genesis account.

[JehovahsWitness]

...the point of the OP is that this supposed one true God is not described in the same way by ANYONE.

Being described in the same way is not a prerequisite for existence.

I think I would be described differently by different people depending on what contact they had with me and their own perceptions and ability to process and subsequently vocalize information. It might be presented as evidence all versons are fictional but it most certainly couldn't be considered conclusive. Indeed having no information at all about someone ir something doesnt mean they don't exist, all one could say for sure is... one has no information at all (which is why all atheists are by definition really agnostics).

Agreement or lack thereof is not evidence of inexiste for anyone but thise claiming "an atheism of gaps" as the basis for their worldview, which is a particularly shaky position to assume.

As I said, even the JW's disagree.

Jehovahs Witnesses agree on certain fundamentals of our faith (which is what holds us together in an international brotherhood); absolute agreement on how we view our God is neither a prerequisite for our faith nor proof or disproof of His existence (see above).



JEHOVAHS WITNESS

[JehovahsWitness]

The point... God does not exist...

That you cannot prove. But I appreciate your sharing your beliefs on the matter.

...or ... 'he' is a horrible communicator... or '[s]he' just doesn't care what we think.

I do not prescribe to the above dichotomy. I believe God to be a communicator par excellence but like all of us, he reserves the right to communicate with some and ignore others.

When I put someone on my "ignore list" on this forum or others it means I am choosing to no longer communicate with them because I dont care what they think. It doesn't mean I can't communicate effectively or that I don't care what ANYONE thinks. It certainly shouldnt be taken as evidence I do not exist.

I propose that God could be an excellent communicator that cares what humble honest hearted people that wish to know him think and communicates with them but chooses not to comminicate with the wicked and leaves them in mental and spiritual darkness.

[JehovahsWitness]

Are you really doubling down on the notion that only JW's got it right?

Got what right? The Jehovahs Witnesses hold that their religious organization is the only one on earth that has God's approval. They do not claim to be inspired and admit to have gotten things wrong in the past and there is little chance they won't make mistakes in the future. But the official JW leadership are catagoric that the Jehovahs Witnesses make up the earthly part of God's organization.


JW

[Danmark]

Are you really doubling down on the notion that only JW's got it right?

Got what right? The Jehovahs Witnesses hold that their religious organization is the only one on earth that has God's approval.

Yes, that is what I meant. Thank you for your admission. That you do not see how ridiculous this sounds baffles me. But it does not surprise me. Ted says the same thing about his quaint and esoteric PCE beliefs. The Muslims say the same thing.

To repeat an oft used phrase, we're all atheists; I just believe in one less God than you do.