Christianity and free will

Post by **otseng** » Sat Feb 28, 2004 7:09 am

If God knows everything, then how can man have a free will?

seekinghokmah · Post by **seekinghokmah** » Thu Jun 10, 2004 2:34 am

Analogy:
You stand before a gate, above which is a sign..it reads "enter if you will". You exercise your free will and choose to walk through, looking back you see another sign on the inside...it reads "I knew you would".

I fail to see how God's foreknowledge in anyway influenced your will to choose to walk through the gate.

It has been consistently asserted that an omniscient beings foreknowledge of all events precludes the existence of free will...only if you assume from the outset that free will is an illusion...presumptuous at best.
The Christian concept of God transcends mere omniscience, He is also omnipotent, omnipresent etc. etc. We cannot even apply attributes to Him accurately, He is completely transcendant and infinite. Any argument that limits the existence of free will must a priori place a limit on Gods ability to create or allow it. God can choose to limit Himself, it was necessary for Him to do so in order to create the physical universe in the first place.

t · Post by t » Fri Jun 11, 2004 1:16 am

Does predestination eliminate the possibility of free will, or is it predestination that lets God know what our choices were?
A God who knows our future which actually to him is our past because the book of life has been written does that mean all the choices have been made?
Does this mean you have no choice? Or does this mean that God knows all and sees all, and knows all the choices you made before you make them?

Just a thought.
Arminians hold that God elects those whom He has foreseen from before the creation of the world would freely accept His offer of Grace

Chancellor · Post by **Chancellor** » Sat Jun 26, 2004 2:06 pm

seekinghokmah wrote:Analogy:
You stand before a gate, above which is a sign..it reads "enter if you will". You exercise your free will and choose to walk through, looking back you see another sign on the inside...it reads "I knew you would".

I fail to see how God's foreknowledge in anyway influenced your will to choose to walk through the gate.

It has been consistently asserted that an omniscient beings foreknowledge of all events precludes the existence of free will...only if you assume from the outset that free will is an illusion...presumptuous at best.
The Christian concept of God transcends mere omniscience, He is also omnipotent, omnipresent etc. etc. We cannot even apply attributes to Him accurately, He is completely transcendant and infinite. Any argument that limits the existence of free will must a priori place a limit on Gods ability to create or allow it. God can choose to limit Himself, it was necessary for Him to do so in order to create the physical universe in the first place.

It isn't God's foreknowledge that precludes free will but, rather, His sovereignty as excercised in predestination. You're confusing foreknowledge with predestination. Foreknowledge is merely God knowing beforehand. Predestination is God decreeing or determining beforehand.

Chancellor · Post by **Chancellor** » Sat Jun 26, 2004 2:09 pm

t wrote:Does predestination eliminate the possibility of free will, or is it predestination that lets God know what our choices were?
A God who knows our future which actually to him is our past because the book of life has been written does that mean all the choices have been made?
Does this mean you have no choice? Or does this mean that God knows all and sees all, and knows all the choices you made before you make them?

Just a thought.
Arminians hold that God elects those whom He has foreseen from before the creation of the world would freely accept His offer of Grace

You're confusing predestination (God decreeing or determining beforehand) with foreknowledge (God merely knowing beforehand).

God doesn't merely know beforehand those who would choose Him: the only people who are even capable of choosing Him are those whom He has determined beforehand He would draw to Himself and give the faith necessary to believe (because of the sinful nature, humans are incapable of choosing God on their own and unwilling to choose God on their own).

DeoxyriboNucleicAcid · Sun Jun 27, 2004 3:42 am

Chancellor wrote:
seekinghokmah wrote:Analogy:

It isn't God's foreknowledge that precludes free will but, rather, His sovereignty as excercised in predestination. You're confusing foreknowledge with predestination. Foreknowledge is merely God knowing beforehand. Predestination is God decreeing or determining beforehand.

It doesn't matter whether God has merely seen me behave as I will or whether He decrees it. It doesn't matter a jot. The fact that I have been seen behaving as I will means that I can't change that behaviour. And, because God has seen how He will behave, then He can't change His behaviour either. With an omniscient God no one and no thing has freewill including the God itself. That is why religious reasoning is often so shallow; why prayers requesting anything are pointless; and why only atheists or those who believe in less powerful, limited Gods can have freewill. With atheists, nothing is written. Mind you, with or without God, freewill is a dubious prospect anyway. Like trying to generate a true random number; it's probably impossible.

Chancellor · Post by **Chancellor** » Sun Jun 27, 2004 1:45 pm

DeoxyriboNucleicAcid wrote:
Chancellor wrote:
seekinghokmah wrote:Analogy:

It isn't God's foreknowledge that precludes free will but, rather, His sovereignty as excercised in predestination. You're confusing foreknowledge with predestination. Foreknowledge is merely God knowing beforehand. Predestination is God decreeing or determining beforehand.

It doesn't matter whether God has merely seen me behave as I will or whether He decrees it. It doesn't matter a jot. The fact that I have been seen behaving as I will means that I can't change that behaviour. And, because God has seen how He will behave, then He can't change His behaviour either. With an omniscient God no one and no thing has freewill including the God itself. That is why religious reasoning is often so shallow; why prayers requesting anything are pointless; and why only atheists or those who believe in less powerful, limited Gods can have freewill. With atheists, nothing is written. Mind you, with or without God, freewill is a dubious prospect anyway. Like trying to generate a true random number; it's probably impossible.
It does matter because this false notion of free will sets man above God, makes man sovereign over God. As far as changing your behavior, you can change it. Behavior is always a choice, always an act of the will. There is no connection between God seeing beforehand what you would choose to do and you actually choosing to do it. On the other hand, God has decreed beforehand those whom He would choose to save. The reason that human will is not free, however, is simply because it is enslaved to sin.

DeoxyriboNucleicAcid · Mon Jun 28, 2004 3:20 am

Chancellor wrote:
It does matter because this false notion of free will sets man above God, makes man sovereign over God. As far as changing your behavior, you can change it. Behavior is always a choice, always an act of the will. There is no connection between God seeing beforehand what you would choose to do and you actually choosing to do it. On the other hand, God has decreed beforehand those whom He would choose to save. The reason that human will is not free, however, is simply because it is enslaved to sin.

I don't know about sovereignty that's something I have never claimed. I just know that God has seen me behave in a certain way and I can't change that. I can't change what he has seen me do tomorrow anymore than I can change what He saw me do yesterday. This is different to foreknowledge because he's actually there and it isn't foreknowledge because the 'fore' part implies He sees it before it happens whereas He is actually outside of time. He is seeing tomorrow now.
Let me repeat however that I don't accept that there is a God. This is a debate that ties deism in a knot, not atheism. I totally refute and reject the christian concept of sin. As for enslavement to sin, oh please. Christianity with its obsession with death and suffering and sin makes it, for me, the least appealing of the world's religions.

agnostic_pilgrim · Post by **agnostic_pilgrim** » Thu Jul 01, 2004 6:00 am

I have a question:

Why would god still create a person if he already knew in advance where that particular person is heading?

What I mean is if god already knew that I am going to hell even before I was born, why would god still create me?

What's the point of creating me if he already knew in advance that I'm going to hell anyway?

rebecca · Post by **rebecca** » Thu Jul 01, 2004 9:05 am

agnostic_pilgrim wrote:I have a question:

Why would god still create a person if he already knew in advance where that particular person is heading?

What I mean is if god already knew that I am going to hell even before I was born, why would god still create me?

What's the point of creating me if he already knew in advance that I'm going to hell anyway?

Maybe it's the same reason why I watch the movie "Showgirls" again and again. I've seen it before, I know how awful it's going to be, but I just can't turn away.

Clearly God's just bored.

Post by **otseng** » Thu Jul 01, 2004 12:52 pm

agnostic_pilgrim wrote:I have a question:

Why would god still create a person if he already knew in advance where that particular person is heading?

What I mean is if god already knew that I am going to hell even before I was born, why would god still create me?

What's the point of creating me if he already knew in advance that I'm going to hell anyway?

This is related to Free will vs. total depravity. I believe man has a free will, so I believe man chooses his/her destiny. Though I also believe God can at times override man's will. But, I don't see God doing this too often. (One example is God hardening Pharoah's heart)

God doesn't desire for anyone to perish.

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

So, I can't see God creating someone whose fate will be hell. Even when God created Satan, the Bible doesn't say that he was fated to hell.

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