Causes of Christian decline

[Confused]

While Christianity is still alive and dominant in the United States, in many other parts of the world, its been on a steady decline. There have been many postulated causes for this. Some of the most popular are:
-increased literacy and education has led to much critical inquiry into various
aspects of scripture capitalizing on the many discrepancies to point to logical
conclusions that it is mere myth, no more credible than the Roman Gods.
-scientific advancements have dispelled the occurrences of much of scripture
-society has reached a point where life isn't measured by the days until the final
reappearance of Christ. Generations are no longer living like Christ will return
tomorrow, as such, religion takes a back seat to todays life.
-the advancement of medicine has effectively explained many diseases and
disorders and offered treatments and cures in the form of natural medicine
rather than the ancient "snake oil" miracles.
-society has changed so dramatically that the average family has not the time to
devote to religion. Or todays society has reached a point where few things
aren't occurring 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, so adhering to many of the
principles in religious doctrine is simply impossible.
-and my favorite, mankind has gotten so weary of trying to figure out which form
of Christianity (or any religion for that matter) is the proper form that it is less
mentally taxing and time consuming to just not even give it thought.

For debate:
1) Which of the above would you consider being the cause for the declining
religious community? Or is there another cause you might attribute to it?
2) Do you think God would be consider any of the above reasons justified or
would He still hold you accountable even though the society now raising you is
the one that has perpetuated this decline and has passed these same values
onto you. In other words, would He be forgiving of the generation that currently
has to have a 2 income source just to make ends meet and as such, has allowed
religion to take a backseat? And what of the future generations that have these
same principles passed on to them? They know no better.

[myth-one.com]

Let's pursue Is there a good reason to believe in the untestable?

"Untestable" is pretty much the biblical definition of "Faith":

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. (Hebrews 11:1)

Although God can and does test the faith or belief of Christians, the actual "things hoped for in the future" (everlasting life, no pain, no fears, no worries, etc) cannot be proved as they cannot be seen (or felt, heard, tasted, measured, smelled, etc).

But yes, there are good reasons to believe in the untestable. One which quickly comes to mind is the "belief in a higher authority" involved in many of the twelve step programs to combat additive behavior. Since addicts cannot stop the compulsive behavior on their own, they need help from a "higher authority." The higher authority does not have to be God. But for those whose higher authority is an unseen God, then for them believing is a good thing if it helps them end the destructive compulsion.

What about even dumb superstitions? Many baseball players go through an exact series of fixing their batting gloves just so, fixing their batting hat, touching their bat to the plate on precise spots an exact number of times, fixing their crotch, etc, before each pitch. If anything is amiss, their chances of hitting that next pitch is slim in their minds. But in fact there is no scientific, measurable relationship to their pre-pitch routine and their batting average. Yet, they believe it must be carried out faithfully. In their minds it is required for success, thus there is a good reason for their untestable routine.

There is a phobia named for those fearing the number 13 (cannot recall the name right this second). Most buildings do not have a "13th floor." Apollo 13 supposedly lifted off on the 13th minute of the 13th hour of the 13th day of the month. Although there is no measurable, scientific proof to suggest a correlation between all the 13's and the failure of Apollo 13, people with this phobia will say, "What do you expect. They tempted fate." Thus their unscientific and untestable fear of the number 13 has been "vindicated." And their avoidance of the number 13 "certainly" has allowed them to avoid tragedies in the past. Tragedies which are unprovable as they did not occur.

[McCulloch]

Although God can and does test the faith or belief of Christians,

How do you know this?

the actual "things hoped for in the future" (everlasting life, no pain, no fears, no worries, etc) cannot be proved as they cannot be seen (or felt, heard, tasted, measured, smelled, etc).

But yes, there are good reasons to believe in the untestable. One which quickly comes to mind is the "belief in a higher authority" involved in many of the twelve step programs to combat additive behavior. Since addicts cannot stop the compulsive behavior on their own, they need help from a "higher authority." The higher authority does not have to be God. But for those whose higher authority is an unseen God, then for them believing is a good thing if it helps them end the destructive compulsion.

There are times when creative imagination can be useful. It does not make it real.

[myth-one.com]

Let's pursue Is there a good reason to believe in the untestable?

Yes, there are good reasons to believe in the untestable.

There are times when creative imagination can be useful.

So both of our answers are yes.

[Cathar1950]

Although God can and does test the faith or belief of Christians,

How do you know this?

the actual "things hoped for in the future" (everlasting life, no pain, no fears, no worries, etc) cannot be proved as they cannot be seen (or felt, heard, tasted, measured, smelled, etc).

But yes, there are good reasons to believe in the untestable. One which quickly comes to mind is the "belief in a higher authority" involved in many of the twelve step programs to combat additive behavior. Since addicts cannot stop the compulsive behavior on their own, they need help from a "higher authority." The higher authority does not have to be God. But for those whose higher authority is an unseen God, then for them believing is a good thing if it helps them end the destructive compulsion.

There are times when creative imagination can be useful. It does not make it real.

One of the interesting things about the helplessness of those in 12 step programs is their feeling of powerlessness and the ablity to give themselves over to something higher. If they are powerless how do they manage to give themselves over toa higher power, which is an act of power?
Maybe the power of imagination is what we call the power of God.
It seems that it also is not really untestable as there are those that do test it.
Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't.
I think that is pretty much a test and therefore it isn't untestable.

[MagusYanam]

“While secular movements like communism, feminism, and environmentalism have gotten the lion’s share of our attention, the explosive southward expansion of Christianity in Africa, Asia, and Latin America has barely registered on Western consciousness,” said Philip Jenkins, distinguished professor of History and Religious Studies at Pennsylvania State University. Perhaps we like to consider ourselves the Christian West, but there is growing evidence that indicates Western Christians are not the whole show. In fact, Mr. Jenkins says that in just 20 years, two-thirds of all Christians will live elsewhere—in Africa, Latin America, or Asia.

Places considered unreachable several decades ago have now become hot spots for Christian growth, and hundreds of new churches are being planted each month in those places. Take the small country of Nepal, for example; the church there is growing faster than in any other nation. In 1960, the number of Christians totaled only twenty-five. Today, the number has risen to almost 1 million. Despite the abuse and isolation many Nepali Christians have faced in recent years, churches are springing up all over the country. And though Hindus, Buddhists, and Muslims, still constitute the majority of the population, Christianity is growing twice as fast as the other faiths.

China is another example of the incredible growth of Christianity. From 1.5 million Christians in 1970, the church has grown to an estimated 64 million in 1990, then to approximately 90 million today. Estimates predict that the number will top 120 million in 25 years.

I attended a Christian church in Beijing (Gangwashi) for a year, and actually what I found there was quite surprising. Though churches are regulated and registered with the central government by law, they generally tend to get a fair bit of leeway which they do end up using. The Christianity preached from the pulpits in China tends to be Social-Gospel Christianity, which appeals to the growing spiritual discontent with the post-Deng capitalism and consumerism, encouraged by the Chinese government. It also tends to be of an extraordinarily feminist bent (it's the same elsewhere in Asia). In societies where the traditional religions of Daoism and Confucianism tend to be heavily male-oriented, women tend to be attracted to the more egalitarian message of Christianity, and they have correspondingly strong leadership roles in the Church where they would not in the Catholic parts of Europe or in the evangelical parts of the United States.

It isn't American-style conservative Christianity that's taking root in China and Korea. The most conservative aspect of the Chinese Christian churches that I could find was that they tended to preserve the Communist Party's negative outlook on homosexuality; otherwise, these churches are heavily influenced by feminism, the social Gospel and the equally explosive environmental movement. From what I could tell, they had no problem with evolutionary science but a very big problem with the capitalist consumerism in Beijing and Shanghai as a spiritually destructive force. This is a kind of Christianity that has more in common with the early Social-Gospel Christianity that was preached in big cities of the East Coast and the Midwest around the turn of the century.

This looks more like a case of liberal churches (and their worldly moral relativism) declining than more conservative churches. Evidence supports this conclusion:

The most recent “Religious Congregations and Membership” study, published in 2000 (the study is conducted each decade) by the Glenmary Research Center, tells the statistical story. Progressive churches are progressing, it seems, ever closer to oblivion. The Presbyterian Church U.S.A. (11,106 churches) has experienced a decline of 11.6 percent over the previous ten years; the United Methodist Church (35,721 churches) was down 6.7 percent; and the Episcopal Church (7,314 churches) lost 5.3 percent of its membership. Also, the United Churches of Christ (5,863 churches) declined 14.8 percent while the American Baptist Churches USA were down 5.7 percent.
The denominations showing growth included the deeply conservative Southern Baptist Convention, a collection of 41,514 churches, whose overall growth rate was 5 percent. The traditionalist Presbyterian Church in America (as opposed the mainline Presbyterian Church U.S.A.) experienced an impressive 42.4 percent increase, while the Christian and Missionary Alliance rose 21.8 percent. Meanwhile, the Evangelical Free Church was up 57.2 percent, and Pentecostal denominations also boomed. The Assemblies of God, with 11,880 churches, saw 18.5 percent growth, while the Church of God, with 5,612 churches, saw growth of 40.2 percent.
What is behind this traditionalist rise and progressive decline? The New York Times, in its summary of the survey, noted, "Socially conservative churches that demand high commitment from their members grew faster than other religious denominations in the last decade…." Glenmary director Ken Sanchagrin told the paper he was “astounded to see that by and large the growing churches are those that we ordinarily call conservative. And when I looked at those that were declining, most were moderate or liberal churches. And the more liberal the denomination, by most people's definition, the more they were losing."

No, the evidence supports the conclusion that mainline denominations are losing members while less mainline denominations are gaining members. I don't think there's any problem with the social-Gospel leanings of liberal American Christianity, I simply think that the reason people are leaving these churches is because the social Gospel message is not being preached. Many mainline churches (at least in New England, where I live) seem more concerned with the maintenance of their church buildings than they are with the welfare of their church communities. I think American liberal Christianity has, by and large, fallen asleep at the wheel and is coasting in neutral. Few and far between were the outcries from the mainline churches against the war in Iraq, for example, though the Presbyterians, the Methodists, the Evangelical Lutherans, the Episcopalians, the American Baptists all should have had their congregations out in the streets protesting such a flagrant denigration of everything Christianity has stood for for nigh on two millennia.

American-style conservative Christianity is little better - they've been asleep at the wheel for their entire existence, but at least their vehicle's in gear, even if that gear is reverse. And at least having some kind of misplaced commitment seems to be working for people, or will at least until they realise that what conservative churches want isn't what they want. How many people are actually harmed, physically or economically or emotionally, by homosexuals? By comparison, how many people are harmed, physically and economically and emotionally, by lack of adequate health care?

Even so, such political concerns should be secondary. What churches should be doing is dialectically synthesising a community life such that it helps individual people - as individual people - realise their own defining, individuating relationships to Christ.

[justifyothers]

I agree that God is not tetsable by scientific methodology. That is the failure of science in that is is unable to test Spirit.

Failure of science or failure of God?

"Failure" may be too strong, but yes it is directed toward science: it is unable. God identified himself as "I Am." I am just not thinking that God has his identity wrapped up in scientific methodology.

Tell me, do you fully understand the 'I Am' statement in genesis. Do you know that in the original hebrew, it was a pun?

Goat - could you expand on this ??? I have not heard this before.

It has to do with hebrew of what "I am what I am".. which is
"Ehyeh asher ehyeh,.. but then further goes on to say 'if they ask you my name
you can just say 'I am' or Ehyeh.
This is basically giving a joke about the name of God. Ehyeh is very close to
YHWH, so God was basically giving Moses his name without having to say it.

The source for this is "The Book of J" by Harold Bloom.

Great book. He also explains that it would also mean "I will be" or become that which I will become. Bloom also talks about God not being present in other words he will be where he will be or present when he is present or as Bloom say absent when he is absent.
I am now reading "The disapearence of God" by Friedman.
In his book he points out the how God seems to disapear while man's role becomes greater. Like growing up and being on your own where in this case the parent moved out. He explains this as a product of the writers where they only wrote of second hand experiences and so God was always in the past or in the future. I let you know how it ends.

Thanks for the info - I think I'll look into both books. Interesting idea in the Friedman book about the role of God changing......you can almost see this happening.

[myth-one.com]

One of the interesting things about the helplessness of those in 12 step programs is their feeling of powerlessness and the ablity to give themselves over to something higher. If they are powerless how do they manage to give themselves over toa higher power, which is an act of power?
Maybe the power of imagination is what we call the power of God.

Call it an act of surrender. They are totally defeated.

It seems that it also is not really untestable as there are those that do test it.
Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't.
I think that is pretty much a test and therefore it isn't untestable.

It is the 12-step program which can be tested as to whether it succeeded or failed. The untestable part is whether or not the unseeable "higher authority" was the cause of any success. Good comments Cathar1950!

There is a way that seemeth right unto a man; but the end thereof are the ways of death. (Proverbs 14:12)

Man has to be severely beaten down before he will admit that his way is not working. Those successfully working 12 step programs have reached that point.

A similar situation can be found in prisons. The Texas "pickaxe murderer" Carla Faye Tucker claimed to have become a Christian while on death row. Her desire was to live and minister to other prisoners. The "Son of Sam" serial killer, David Berkowitz, claims to be a "born again Christian." Many others turn to the Islamic faith or other religions while in prison. Are these so called "death row conversions" real, or are they simply efforts to please parole boards and authorities?

I not only believe most of them are sincere, I believe they are to be expected! These are the humans one would expect to seek God. How much lower can one go than to be locked in a small cage, with every necessity of life under other people's control, awaiting their early death? They are no longer in control of their lives. Their way has failed, society has cast them into the trash pit, and they can sink no lower. They look for a higher authority and surrender.

[alexiarose]

One of the interesting things about the helplessness of those in 12 step programs is their feeling of powerlessness and the ablity to give themselves over to something higher. If they are powerless how do they manage to give themselves over toa higher power, which is an act of power?
Maybe the power of imagination is what we call the power of God.

Call it an act of surrender. They are totally defeated.

But they aren't surrendering to God. In the 12 steps program, the "higher power" can be the goldfish at the local pet store.

Man has to be severely beaten down before he will admit that his way is not working. Those successfully working 12 step programs have reached that point.

Self fulfilling prophecy. If one believes they are at rock bottom, they are more amenable to finding ways to climb back up. Those successfully working the program will tell you that there is no successful working. It is a life-long struggle and they can fall at any time.

A similar situation can be found in prisons. The Texas "pickaxe murderer" Carla Faye Tucker claimed to have become a Christian while on death row. Her desire was to live and minister to other prisoners. The "Son of Sam" serial killer, David Berkowitz, claims to be a "born again Christian." Many others turn to the Islamic faith or other religions while in prison. Are these so called "death row conversions" real, or are they simply efforts to please parole boards and authorities?

I not only believe most of them are sincere, I believe they are to be expected! These are the humans one would expect to seek God. How much lower can one go than to be locked in a small cage, with every necessity of life under other people's control, awaiting their early death? They are no longer in control of their lives. Their way has failed, society has cast them into the trash pit, and they can sink no lower. They look for a higher authority and surrender.

Only God will know if their "conversion" is true. But I am skeptical of anyone who murders without conscience then all of the sudden, after being locked away and now facing the death penalty, they find God. Scripture says Jesus was there not for the righteous but for the sinners. This is true. The question I would have to ask is if the parole boards believed these individuals or the governor did and pardoned the persons death sentence, if we put them back into society, would they still have God or would they return to their old ways? The phrase "you can't teach an old dog new tricks" applies here. Not that long ago, the Catholic church put pedophiles in the position of priests under the assumption that if they were "married" to God, they would no longer lust. Guess what. It failed. Since I can't know what is truly in these individuals hearts, I can't presume to know the truth. I can only rely on history and the probability. Most of these individuals aren't first time offenders. Why didn't they find God the first time around?

[Cathar1950]

It is the 12-step program which can be tested as to whether it succeeded or failed. The untestable part is whether or not the unseeable "higher authority" was the cause of any success. Good comments Cathar1950!

I think the success rate is about 33% before the courts started forcing them to go into the volunteer anonymous programs. Of course we have no idea how many just gave up the habits on there own, and it does happen.

[myth-one.com]

I think the success rate is about 33% before the courts started forcing them to go into the volunteer anonymous programs. Of course we have no idea how many just gave up the habits on there own, and it does happen.

I hope your 33% is correct. That is higher that I would have guessed. The person who wrote the first 12-step program must have been a very intelligent insightful person. The problem has been around at least since biblical days. I'm convinced that the "thorn in the flesh" given the Apostle Paul when God called him for special service was a compulsive behavior disorder. Note that Paul describes his infirmity as a "temptation":

And my temptation which was in my flesh ye despised not, nor rejected; but received me as an angel of God, even as Christ Jesus. (Galatians 4:14)

And consider the following verse written by Paul:

For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that I do. (Romans 7:15)

That statement is virtually the definition of compulsion:

Compulsion: a strong usually irresistible impulse to perform an act that is contrary to the will of the subject.

Paul recognized at least one of the 12 steps -- that he needed help from a "higher authority":

For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me. (II Corinthians 12:8)

Not really related to this thread -- but interesting.
========================= Back on Thread ====================================================

American-style conservative Christianity is little better - they've been asleep at the wheel for their entire existence, but at least their vehicle's in gear, even if that gear is reverse. And at least having some kind of misplaced commitment seems to be working for people, or will at least until they realise that what conservative churches want isn't what they want. How many people are actually harmed, physically or economically or emotionally, by homosexuals? By comparison, how many people are harmed, physically and economically and emotionally, by lack of adequate health care?

Even so, such political concerns should be secondary. What churches should be doing is dialectically synthesising a community life such that it helps individual people - as individual people - realise their own defining, individuating relationships to Christ.

Wow!! What a powerful statement! Take a bow! God, why can't I write like that?? It reminds me of something I've read numerous times:

Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee ahungered, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. (Matthew 25:34-40)