“Why do atheists/others Deny God, Scriptures,

[joer]

Last week I came across something in reflection. Spirituality grows and develops as we do. There are three stages.

1. The first stage is discovering that God Exists. This usually takes place between 0-20 years of age.

2. The second stage is being led to God. You begin and develop learning about God’s purpose in your life. This happens about 20-40 years of age.

T3. he third stage is Living a Spirit led, God led Life. Now you know why you’re here and your ready for your fruits to be lived and seen. God is alive within you. Now you see yourself as Spirit within a body. This happens about 40 to forever.

So when I noticed this I thought about all my atheists friends here and I thought I may have found a cause of atheism.

Now on a normal world (The Vatican admitted last week aliens are our brothers and sisters in God) this would be our normal spiritual development. But on our world with so much error within it due to a messed up start with the negative influence of the Lucifer rebellion and the failure of Adam and Eve, our spiritual development can become jeopardized. So if we have a problem at any level of our spiritual development we can become spiritually stunted, become damaged, atrophy spiritually and suffer the consequences of our Spiritual malformation.

I further conceptualized that the level we were at when the spiritual trauma occurred might have specific symptoms or traits that are common to other atheists or non-believers

So my questions to atheists and/or non-believers are these:

1. At what age did your non-belief or denial of the existence of God begin.

2. Do you remember any specific incident or causes that precipitated that non-belief? Just use generalized descriptions if the authentic trauma to your loss of faith (if there was one) is too graphic or insidious to share here.

3. What was the course of development of your atheism?

I also think the participation in this discussion will help other Christians and believers better understand our atheist and non-believer brothers and sisters.

Peace and knowledge to all.

[bernee51]

Let me clarify.
True Faith I would say is embracing your Spirituality initialized by your belief in God.

And if 'spirituality is embraced withoug a god belief?

Dubious faith is having doubts about your Spirituality and all that represents in the religious sense. (Belief in God etc.)

I have no doubts about my spirituality and spiritual practice... I also have no doubt about the non-existnece of god(s)

No Faith - Would be non-belief in God and Spirituality in the religious sense.

So you acknowledge then a non-religious, non god based spirituality?

For example Bernee wrote:

I grew up in a Catholic household. My parents were quite religious with regular prayers at home - rosaries etc. My mother was very active in the church auxiliary. I served at altar until I was 14 years old. I went to catholic schools for my entire education. We had regular retreats at various monasteries engaging in discussion with monks which I found to be stimulating and though provoking.

The 'disconnect' for me was no one thing. It was cumulative. The answers to my many questions provided by my educators and religious mentors were unsatisfactory. They did not fill the 'spiritual' gap in my life. It was not difficult at all to throw of the yoke of theistic religion.

Since previously he wrote his atheism (perhaps doubts of God) began at 7 years of age. So I would say his Faith was dubious. BUT I’m not sure his parent’s faith was dubious. So this might be one of those cases that doesn’t follow the norm of the child following the parents belief or non-belief disposition.

Perhaps their greatest gift to me was the ability and tendency to be a critical thinker.

Like Bernee, what were those questions? “The answers to my many questions provided by my educators and religious mentors were unsatisfactory. They did not fill the 'spiritual' gap in my life.”

Just the usual. Who am I? What is god? How did all this come about? What is 'soul'? What is 'spirit"? What is 'spiritulaity'?

Joer - can you answer the last for me - what (in 17 word or less) is 'spirituality'?

[joer]

Furrowed Brow wrote:

The side to religion I do not find phony is religion as a way of live, the ritual and the habits, the architecture, the emphasis on family life and “way of being” it inculcates. But I find this in the older religions. The paradigm probably being the Jewish religion, maybe Catholics too. My best friend is an Italian catholic. I’ve attended his families weddings and baptisms and eaten with them many times. They don’t say prayers or anything but there is that ingrained Catholicism hanging in the background somewhere.

I like that Furrowed Brow. It seems like you like Religious Integrity even though you disagree with it in principal.
I too enjoy that about atheists with intelligent arguments with integrity in their position.

[joer]

Zzyzx I appreciate your open and candid sharing.

I can remember getting in trouble for telling my younger brothers that there was no such thing as Santa Claus, Tooth Fairy or God – when I was eight years old.

Do you remember who you got into trouble with when you told your younger brothers that? Was it your mom or dad or both or someone else?

Non-belief is NOT, in my opinion, “precipitated” but is the “default” or normal condition for humans. Belief in supernatural beings is learned behavior NOT a natural configuration.

I think I mentioned Barrett’s study at Oxford where he holds the opposite opinion. That belief in God is the default. He ran questions by 3 year olds and 5 year old . But I’m not here to argue that. I’d much rather hear the TRUTH as you and others tell it here. Rather than impose my opinion on you. I want to listen.
And I appreciate the tolerance and patience and forbearance as well as cooperation you all have extended to me. I think in this one short thread I’ve learn more about atheists from their own revelations of their personal experience in their life long development, than I have arguing my own positions here for two years.

Sometimes “knowing” is worth more than arguing. I believe there’s a lot of rich stuff here that helps me understand and know the atheist better, thanks to your willingness to share the Truth of your experience. Thank You

Non-belief is NOT, in my opinion, “precipitated” but is the “default” or normal condition for humans. Belief in supernatural beings is learned behavior NOT a natural configuration.

Do you know about what age you assimilated or cognitively recognized this position?

Looking back on nearly seventy years of a very fulfilling life, I am proud of the decisions I made as a child and as a young man to be my own person…

I’m glad you’ve had this sense of satisfaction with your life! I think that’s a wonderful thing, to be able to feel that.
Again Thank you to all for your kindness and patience.

Here are two more “stages” that may apply:

5. Rejection of belief: Gradual awakening or sudden realization that belief in invisible super beings is irrational and untenable (for the individual). Realization is often precipitated by 1) encountering alternative ideas in the course of education or in discussion with non-believers or 2) disappointment with the failure of religion to produce any positive effects or outcomes promised.

6. Readjustment to the real world without “god beliefs” or “god dependency”: A period of adjustment to reality may be required to transition from a world view based upon illusion and one based upon reality. Difficulty of deprogramming may be proportional to degree of indoctrination and the fervency of earlier beliefs.

This makes sense. I can see how the dynamics involved in these two stages would work both ways. For Believers going to atheism and Atheists becoming Believers. Thanks Zzz

[Beto]

I think I mentioned Barrett’s study at Oxford where he holds the opposite opinion. That belief in God is the default. He ran questions by 3 year olds and 5 year old . But I’m not here to argue that.

I bet you're not. You must also think that study is completely ludicrous. Belief in "God" in children?! It's as "default" as belief in Santa Claus. I mean, really, why would you even bring this up? How about conducting that study in a society where no reference of "God" is ever made? See how that turns out...

You may also find this study interesting:

http://cogprints.org/2363/1/Knight_et_al._2004.pdf

I don't understand why you say "I'm not here to argue that". How does it not relate to the OP?

EDIT: Also, you seem to be misrepresenting the study.

http://www.upi.com/NewsTrack/Top_News/2 ... _god/8341/

[joer]

I can hear what you are saying Jmars and it makes a lot of sense.

Jmars wrote:

Most soft atheists or agnostics don't RAISE their kids as such, they raise them to make their own decision, which was what I was suggesting in the earlier post.

On this point I talked about the parents “influence” on their child. I’m not saying atheists or even Christians are indoctrinating their child. Although I agree with you many Christians try to teach their children about living spiritually and many more send them to religious indoctrination of the denomination they belong too. I believe it’s there in Organized religions indoctrination that people even kids being to have a falling out. Because they can see the hypocrisy inherent in various parts of the indoctrination.
But the “Influence” even if it’s only adopting the parents pattern of NOT going to church or denying God in discussion with friends. They are “Influenced” and I believe answers here bear it out, to follow somewhat in their parents or an influential member of the family’s footsteps. So I’m saying for children it’s more patterning after their parents or someone who has influence over them.

For example you say:

I was a very strong Christian.

But the things you mentioned seemed mostly like the outward things down by Christians While internally you had to wrestle with the inconsistencies between what your church and what True Faith should have been. The faith that questions hypocrisy not defend it. Like in these things you mention:

I was also pretty preachy and "holier than thou" and I thought of atheists as heathens because that was I was taught they were.
I was merely making excuses for God constantly and ignoring the bad while remembering the good or "answered prayers" That is called confirmation bias. I had presuppositions about the world and nature of God so I made everything in my life fit into those belief sets by tricking myself into finding a cause of everything.

I was talking about people who also may have had religious dogma crammed down their throats in their formative years. If my mother was less harsh with me and didn't TELL me what to believe so much when I was younger,

This is called Christianity but in reality there’s very little if any Christ-Like behavior in there. From my point of view, and I realize atheists hold a different POV, I’d say it’s no wonder you responded to the Logical, reasonable , and scientific truth of Material reality.

I remember my mother trying her darndest to make me reject God and the Church stating from when I was about 7 or 8. She told me Religion was just a trick used to manipulate the masses. She’d tell I was a cannibal or ask me if I was a cannibal because I ate the body and Blood of Christ. When ever I was with her on weekends or vacations we would never go to church and she said she refused to propagate a lie. So I have an idea of what you may have felt like when you say:

. If my mother was less harsh with me and didn't TELL me what to believe

Thank You jmars. Good Will be with you my friend. And Welcome to the site. I think you’ll find there quite a following of atheists here and they all exceptional and supportive people as you can tell.

[joer]

Beto wrote:

Obviously, it's not something that "begins". It's a gradual process of realizing there's absolutely no reason to assume gods exist in any way.

I was wondering what age you realized there's absolutely no reason to assume gods exist

Like I pointed out before, I gradually became aware that everything happens to everyone in basically the same proportion, regardless of religion or lack thereof.
I’m noticing this also. It seems to me like Atheism and Religion both are realized as a response to some urge to know the truth within us.

Good Will and Peace be with you Beto. Thank You.

[jmars]

Joer:

But the things you mentioned seemed mostly like the outward things down by Christians While internally you had to wrestle with the inconsistencies between what your church and what True Faith should have been. The faith that questions hypocrisy not defend it. Like in these things you mention: Quote:

I was also pretty preachy and "holier than thou" and I thought of atheists as heathens because that was I was taught they were.
I was merely making excuses for God constantly and ignoring the bad while remembering the good or "answered prayers" That is called confirmation bias. I had presuppositions about the world and nature of God so I made everything in my life fit into those belief sets by tricking myself into finding a cause of everything.
Quote:
I was talking about people who also may have had religious dogma crammed down their throats in their formative years. If my mother was less harsh with me and didn't TELL me what to believe so much when I was younger

I just want to point out that at the time, I didn't see it this way. This is my current self putting a spin on what transpired. I did not wrestle with the my indoctrination with the church and "True Faith"...I was non-denominational. That's, in my opinion the least dogmatic you can get. I truly believed everything my mother told me and the church told me and I believed that I had a real spiritual connection with Jesus Christ. I felt it in my very being (at least what I thought at the time was feeling it). When I participated in worship I felt a sense of euphoria and oneness with God. I was what most would call a "good Christian". I practiced abstinence, I did all the things I mentioned before, but not just as acts to look good to others, I truly felt I was making a difference and teaching others about the one and true God. If I said I was "holier than thou" it is only in retrospect as I thought that I was a good Christian and that I could bring something to others who were without God, of whom I pitied. Only now do I realize how I must have sounded to atheists and agnostics I tried to convert. There was no inner struggle or turmoil with my Faith as I remember and I don't believe my faith was any less "true" than yours is. I still feel that you are trying to rationalize why a Christian could become an Atheist and that it must be because their faith was "dubious".

The only thing I can honestly say that might make sense is that I was much more credulous in my younger years. I trusted anything and everything adults told me. It wasn't until I went to college that I learned to really think for myself. Even then, it was not an overnight transformation. It took me years to gradually let go of God. I didn't want to! It was hard, but I could no longer believe if I was to be honest with myself. I think most atheist would tell you that they would prefer that there was a God. That would make life and death a lot nicer, but wanting it does not make it true.

[joer]

I’d also like to ask McCulloch and Once Convinced if they think their original belief in the existence of God was immutable? Or if they ever felt it was?

Sorry, I missed this question. I think myself it was always a not-negotiable. I never questioned it. I had absolute faith in the existance of God. That's what I was engrained to believe since birth. I never even doubted it until around my mid 30s. Only then did I start to open my mind to other possibilities. 2-3 years ago I started to really doubt there was a God. When I came to this site last year, I still considered myself a Deist but then realised I couldn't even seriously consider myself that. It wasn't a choice. It was an inescapable conclusion.

Thanks for the reply Once Convinced. Your switch to Atheism appears to be the most recent, out of the ones who replied here. And your belief in Christianity into your thirties seems to be longest stretch of being a believer out of all the atheists here.

I’m glad you have found comfort, camaraderie and support here. Jmars and Zzz I really enjoy your supportive posts to each other and others who read this thread.
It’s good to see how much sense, how logical and reasonable your responses to your experiences and questions were. I’d like to comment on that latter. But right now I’m enjoying what I see as this privileged view into the supportiveness, candidness, reasons and conditions related to your initiation into Atheism and the ongoing Confirmation of your Perspective on reality.

I’m also glad about the sense of relief many of you have mentioned feeling, especially those of you who were Christians before, from the failure of the Religious Context of reality you were in to answer your questions on the causalities of Life on even worse hypocritically contradicting the religious precepts they preach with their inappropriate actions.

Good Will to you my friends. I’m thankful you found relief from those Religious Pressures.

[joer]

So my questions to atheists and/or non-believers are these:

1. At what age did your non-belief or denial of the existence of God begin.

It was early teens for me. I remember sitting in Church hearing a sermon about, "If one had faith the size of a mustard seed he could move mountains." I thought to msyelf, "But no one ever has. Not Jesus, not the Pope, no one. So that's probably crap." And from there I started really listening to what was being said and scrutinizing the sermons.

2. Do you remember any specific incident or causes that precipitated that non-belief? Just use generalized descriptions if the authentic trauma to your loss of faith (if there was one) is too graphic or insidious to share here.

As I described above, it was a course of scrutiny with regard to the teachings. My family is, still today, very conservative Catholic. When there was punishment in our home it was often done kneeling praying the rosary. There was no discussing. It was plenty clear that questioning was wrong. That lead to the real point of no return. One Sunday morning I was sitting reading a book waiting for everyone to be ready to leave and my father asked if I'd prepared my weekly offering. I told him no and he asked why not. I told him I didn't want to give my money to something I don't believe in. Instead of asking what I thought or trying to understand or acknowledging me in any fashion he simply yelled, "What the hell do you think you know!" and that was that. Right there he lost any chance to be an authority for me. He lost any chance to bring me back to the church. I was not only divided from the church, but from my father. That lasted nearly 20 more years. That, really, is what I regret about my beliefs. We still, to this day, have not talked about it. We're not separated any more and we're comfortable with one another, but it's not a topic that we bring up.

3. What was the course of development of your atheism?

I recognized early on that while I didn't believe in religion, there had to be something to it. It's too real, too much a factor in people's lives and the world. I still believe that. It's a genuine and valuable part of the human condition. That doesn't make religion true, however. My progression has been to find out what about religion is necessary. What does it do for hte individual and what does it do for society. That is waht is real. There's a real need that it fulfills better than the alternatives.

However, it's not something I can believe and live, so what do I need to do, as an atheist father, to satisfy that need for my children. That is where I am now. Spirituality is something we all experience and we need to have our spiritual needs met. I've got to develop that, without religion, for my children. It's a daunting task. They're 8 and 5 now, so the needs aren't sophisticated yet. It's going to be interesting in the next 5-10 years. My children don't pray. They don't have guardian angels. People die and turn into dirt, their life energy released to the cosmos. I've got to make them comfortable with that.

That idea, the fact that atheists still have to satisfy their spiritual needs and the needs of those dependent upon them, is what I'd have the believers recognize. Atheism isn't an emptiness, a void of morality and spirituality. It's an unstructured pursuit of a new understanding of those things.

At least it is for a mature atheist. Some are simply rebelliously avoiding those topics, and those are the knuckleheads who make atheism a bad word. They are the disgruntled, dissatisfied, angry atheists who don't realize what's missing in their lives. They spend their lives trying to not be something they don't understand or like instead of figuring out what they want to be as a viable alternative. In the end they're nothing.

I also think the participation in this discussion will help other Christians and believers better understand our atheist and non-believer brothers and sisters.

Peace and knowledge to all.

Real Thinker Thank you very much. This is an excellent post. For me. I think you right to think about what to offer those kids for answers to their personal growth questions.

I can't answer your questions with a religious answer because you don't belive in that. Although your comments on Spirituality, I'm pretty sure are not meant in the Spiritually Religious sense. BUT I've seen something here in these responses to the questions I posed. It seems like in the majority of Cases the Parent's or a significant person in the child’s life have an influence in what they believe. Also it's seems natural to me that both Atheists and Believers at a young age usually pretty solid by the time their fifteen, have a Natural tendency to form their opinions and beliefs.

I believe your Children will pick up on your example. If you are good and moral in your upbringing of your kids and use good parenting skills weather their Atheists or Believers they'll be good people. It doesn't seem to me that you'll make the same mistake of intolerance your Dad made with you and my Mom as an Atheist of that same era made with me, Trying very deliberately to steer me in an atheistic direction.

Bernee has a spirituality concept that is pretty unique that he may be willing to share with you. But I'm not sure you can present it to your kids in a way they understand it.

I have three children myself, all girls 18, 20, and 24. From my own experience, my mother was a dialectical materialist. And the dialectical part is what I liked best. because it gave her a framework in her personal philosophy to adapt to the constantly changing conceptual reality of what things are. Dialectics take into account what the thing REALLY IS now but also what it is becoming. That thing that you talk about that kids may need to know is a framework for understanding what is beyond this living natural reality in which we exists. Their minds want to grow. And they are perplexed when they face questions that don't have a firm finite answer. How big is the Universe? How many atoms in the sum? Is time travel possible? How many stars are there? is there a God? What is Love?

So they will search out whatever answers to what they are presented with that peeks their interest. When they are young they'll look to you for answers and compare them to their cognitive reality at the time. Later as they grow older and look for more sophisticated answers, They'll look beyond you. The answers the trusted you for will most likely stand until they find something better or lose faith (trust) in the answer you gave them. And from all of that searching and the responses they get or find they will formulate new answers that will stand until they find something better.

BUT I believe the more positive attention and time you can give them now the better their relationship will be with you later. Talk to them. Find out their interests and pursue them with them. Pretty soon they'll want to do it themselves without your help. Give them the positive direction now while they still want your attention in that way. Do stuff with them. Teach them and then praise them no matter how good or poorly they do. Encourage them. make it fun for them.

I'll see if we can discuss this further later if you don't mind.

Peace be to all on this site.

[joer]

Realthinker, How's it going? I hope your day is going well.

I ran across this today and was thinking about what your were saying about how to develop your children’s growth without pushing them.

A Chance to Grow

Give every developing child a chance to grow his own religious experience; do not force a ready-made adult experience upon him.

If you just drop the Religious connotation I think it makes a lot of sense. From this thread I believe there are natural urges to learn and define our beliefs for ourselves. So I would think if I was an Atheist I could say you could put your best understanding of reality forth BUT let them (the children) choose theirs as they discover it. I mean take every opportunity to show them the Truth of your reality But then let them find their Truth. I mean does that make sense to you as an atheist?

It seems like that idea (without "Religious" in there) would work both ways, wouldn't it?

In solidarity with my atheist friends, Good Will be with you.