Undeniable and Scientific Evidence of THE Creator.

[Zzyzx]

.
From another thread

I present undeniable and scientific evidence of THE Creator.

I await the evidence.

Question for debate: Is the evidence undeniable and scientific (and compelling / convincing) or is it just more of the same stuff that has been presented ad nausea?

[FarWanderer]

I have yet to see any reasonable explanation by any atheist for an alternative to an Intelligent Creator.

It makes no sense to speak of "alternatives" when there are no reasonable arguments for an Intelligent Creator in the first place.

[Zzyzx]

.

If you did encounter a reasonable alternative, what means would you use to recognize it and understand its significance?

What kind of question is that?

It is a reasonable question to ask of someone who seems to think there is only one possible explanation or alternative.

How would they recognize (and effectively evaluate) alternatives?

I truly appreciate this opportunity to compare attitudes and ideas presented in favor of Theism with those of Non-Theism.

I believe you and I applaud you for it. I take it you do not wear a Flying Spaghetti Monster necklace, and heckle ignorant, redneck Christians...

Heckling is not permitted in this Forum. Those who are capable actually debate ideas and issues without anger, hostility, bigotry and/or personal comments.

I trust that readers evaluate the merits of ideas presented and decide for themselves which are rational. Perhaps some are impressed by emotional rants. This thread has had over 17,000 views. Has "undeniable and scientific evidence of the creator" been presented?

[KenRU]

I take it you do not wear a Flying Spaghetti Monster necklace, and heckle ignorant, redneck Christians...

I'm actually wearing my FSM shirt right now, but that doesn't mean I'll be heckling anyone or being mean or cruel. You seem to forget that many atheists were once theists (I was a Catholic), which means that many have family members that are still believers. As such, I can appreciate the importance of civility.

Not everyone who sports the FMS paraphernalia or Darwin's Fish decal are mean spirited. For me, it's just my way of showing my support of science and reason.

-all the best

[Starman]

It makes no sense to speak of "alternatives" when there are no reasonable arguments for an Intelligent Creator in the first place.

You could not be more wrong.

The world-renowned historian, Jaroslav Pelikan makes this clear: Regardless of what anyone may personally think or believe about him, Jesus of Nazareth has been the dominant figure in the history of Western culture for almost twenty centuries. If it were possible, with some sort of super magnet, to pull up out of that history every scrap of metal bearing at least a trace of his name, how much would be left? It is from his birth that most of the human race dates its calendars, it is by his name that millions curse and in his name that millions pray.

D. James Kennedy and Jerry Newcombe examine what has happened in history that displays the influence of the (Christian) church. Here are a few highlights they cite (in their book What If Jesus Had Never Been Born?):

Hospitals, which essentially began during the Middle Ages.
Universities, which also began during the Middle Ages. In addition, most of the worlds greatest universities were started by Christians for Christian purposes.
Literacy and education of the masses.
Representative government, particularly as it has been seen in the American experiment.
The separation of political powers.
Civil liberties.
The abolition of slavery, both in antiquity and in modern times.
Modern science.
The discovery of the New World by Columbus.
Benevolence and charity; the Good Samaritan ethic.
Higher standards of justice.
The elevation of the common man.
The high regard for human life.
The civilizing of many barbarian and primitive cultures.
The codifying and setting to writing of many of the worlds languages.
The greater development of art and music. The inspiration for the greatest works of art.
The countless changed lives transformed from liabilities into assets to society because of the gospel.
The eternal salvation of countless souls.


I know of no one fact in the history of mankind which is proved by better and fuller evidence of every sort, to the understanding of a fair inquirer, than the great sign which God hath given us that Christ died and rose again from the dead. - Thomas Arnold, author of the famous three-volume History of Rome, appointed to the chair of modern history at Oxford

The great truths which the apostles declared, were, that Christ had risen from the dead, and that only through repentance from sin, and faith in Him, could men hope for salvation.
/
Propagating this new faith, even in the most inoffensive and peaceful manner, they could expect nothing but contempt, opposition, revilings, bitter persecutions, stripes, imprisonments, torments, and cruel deaths. Yet this faith they zealously did propagate; and all these miseries they endured undismayed, nay, rejoicing. As one after another was put to a miserable death, the survivors only prosecuted their work with increased vigor and resolution. The annals of military warfare afford scarcely an example of the like heroic constancy, patience, and unblenching courage. They had every possible motive to review carefully the grounds of their faith, and the evidences of the great facts and truths which they asserted; and these motives were pressed upon their attention with the most melancholy and terrific frequency.
It was therefore impossible that they could have persisted in affirming the truths they have narrated, had not Jesus actually risen from the dead, and had they not known this fact as certainly as they knew any other fact. - Simon Greenleaf, (1783 - 1853) Royal Professor of Law at Harvard University

: Indeed, taking all the evidence together, it is not too much to say that there is no historic incident better or more variously supported than the resurrection of Christ. - Brooke Foss Westcott (1825 - 1901) regius professor at Cambridge



We, as Christians, are asked to take a very great deal on trust; the teachings, for example, and the miracles of Jesus. If we had to take all on trust, I, for one, should be skeptical. The crux of the problem of whether Jesus was, or was not, what He proclaimed Himself to be, must surely depend upon the truth or otherwise of the resurrection. On that greatest point we are not merely asked to have faith. In its favour as living truth there exists such overwhelming evidence, positive and negative, factual and circumstantial, that no intelligent jury in the world could fail to bring in a verdict that the resurrection story is true. - Lord Darling, former Chief Justice of England

There remains, therefore, no supposition possible to explain the recorded phenomenon except the combination of the fructification and rupture of the heart. - Samuel Houghton, M.D., great physiologist from the University of Dublin

[Regens Küchl]

Uh, Starman the things you quote from your "christian experts" are the lowest basest outright lied propaganda I perhaps ever heard !

I wont even stress the point that in fact Jesus h a s never been born 'cause he never existed . . .

. . . But do you really not know that the 1500 years of christian dictaturship were a horrible dark age that put to death all the sciences, universitys and precious literature of the non christians high civilications that were drawn into the cauldron of christian mass murder, torture, destroyng of freedom?
After the middle ages when christianity slowly began to weaken humanity had a channce to find again the blessings and sciences of a free culture. Free from the plague of an enforced religion.

[Clownboat]

It makes no sense to speak of "alternatives" when there are no reasonable arguments for an Intelligent Creator in the first place.

You could not be more wrong.

The world-renowned historian, Jaroslav Pelikan makes this clear: Regardless of what anyone may personally think or believe about him, Jesus of Nazareth has been the dominant figure in the history of Western culture for almost twenty centuries. If it were possible, with some sort of super magnet, to pull up out of that history every scrap of metal bearing at least a trace of his name, how much would be left? It is from his birth that most of the human race dates its calendars, it is by his name that millions curse and in his name that millions pray.

D. James Kennedy and Jerry Newcombe examine what has happened in history that displays the influence of the (Christian) church. Here are a few highlights they cite (in their book What If Jesus Had Never Been Born?):

Hospitals, which essentially began during the Middle Ages.
Universities, which also began during the Middle Ages. In addition, most of the worlds greatest universities were started by Christians for Christian purposes.
Literacy and education of the masses.
Representative government, particularly as it has been seen in the American experiment.
The separation of political powers.
Civil liberties.
The abolition of slavery, both in antiquity and in modern times.
Modern science.
The discovery of the New World by Columbus.
Benevolence and charity; the Good Samaritan ethic.
Higher standards of justice.
The elevation of the common man.
The high regard for human life.
The civilizing of many barbarian and primitive cultures.
The codifying and setting to writing of many of the worlds languages.
The greater development of art and music. The inspiration for the greatest works of art.
The countless changed lives transformed from liabilities into assets to society because of the gospel.
The eternal salvation of countless souls.


I know of no one fact in the history of mankind which is proved by better and fuller evidence of every sort, to the understanding of a fair inquirer, than the great sign which God hath given us that Christ died and rose again from the dead. - Thomas Arnold, author of the famous three-volume History of Rome, appointed to the chair of modern history at Oxford

The great truths which the apostles declared, were, that Christ had risen from the dead, and that only through repentance from sin, and faith in Him, could men hope for salvation.
/
Propagating this new faith, even in the most inoffensive and peaceful manner, they could expect nothing but contempt, opposition, revilings, bitter persecutions, stripes, imprisonments, torments, and cruel deaths. Yet this faith they zealously did propagate; and all these miseries they endured undismayed, nay, rejoicing. As one after another was put to a miserable death, the survivors only prosecuted their work with increased vigor and resolution. The annals of military warfare afford scarcely an example of the like heroic constancy, patience, and unblenching courage. They had every possible motive to review carefully the grounds of their faith, and the evidences of the great facts and truths which they asserted; and these motives were pressed upon their attention with the most melancholy and terrific frequency.
It was therefore impossible that they could have persisted in affirming the truths they have narrated, had not Jesus actually risen from the dead, and had they not known this fact as certainly as they knew any other fact. - Simon Greenleaf, (1783 - 1853) Royal Professor of Law at Harvard University

: Indeed, taking all the evidence together, it is not too much to say that there is no historic incident better or more variously supported than the resurrection of Christ. - Brooke Foss Westcott (1825 - 1901) regius professor at Cambridge



We, as Christians, are asked to take a very great deal on trust; the teachings, for example, and the miracles of Jesus. If we had to take all on trust, I, for one, should be skeptical. The crux of the problem of whether Jesus was, or was not, what He proclaimed Himself to be, must surely depend upon the truth or otherwise of the resurrection. On that greatest point we are not merely asked to have faith. In its favour as living truth there exists such overwhelming evidence, positive and negative, factual and circumstantial, that no intelligent jury in the world could fail to bring in a verdict that the resurrection story is true. - Lord Darling, former Chief Justice of England

There remains, therefore, no supposition possible to explain the recorded phenomenon except the combination of the fructification and rupture of the heart. - Samuel Houghton, M.D., great physiologist from the University of Dublin

As a historian, I confess to a certain amusement when I hear the Judeo-Christian tradition praised as the source of our present-day concern for human rights... In fact, the great religious ages were notable for their indifference to human rights... not only for acquiescence in poverty, inequality, exploitation and oppression, but also for enthusiastic justifications for slavery, persecution, abandonment of small children, torture, and genocide. Religion during most of the history of the West saw the trials visited on mankind in this world as ordained by the Almighty to test and purify sinful mortals... Moreover, religion enshrined hierarchy, authority, and inequality; hated blasphemy; and feared heresy... it was the age of equality that brought about the disappearance of such religious appurtenances and the auto-da-fe and burning at the stake.

- Arther Schlesinger, Jr. Speech at the inauguration of Vartan Gregorian as president of Brown University, 1989

I must also confess, I find your claims amusing.

[Danmark]

....
Hospitals, which essentially began during the Middle Ages.
Universities, which also began during the Middle Ages....
[and so on....]

Your entire premise is faulty. It essentially is ad hominem and fallacious. Because a Christian, a Muslim, an atheist or a Buddhist did something helpful or intelligent does not make his belief system valid.

If a scientist makes a discovery in science, that does not validate his private belief system. For example, Darwin was a Christian when he made his first important discoveries, tho' the facts he discovered eventually made him doubt the accuracy of the Bible as history.*

His great discoveries and unifying theories neither validate Christianity, nor atheism, nor any other private belief system. Galileo's proof that the Earth moves, did not validate his Christianity and the church hardly appreciated his claim.

__________________
*Charles Darwin had a non-conformist background, but attended a Church of England school. With the aim of becoming a clergyman he went to the University of Cambridge for the required BA degree, which included studies of Anglican theology. He took great interest in natural history and became filled with zeal for science as defined by John Herschel, based on the natural theology of William Paley which presented the argument from divine design in nature to explain adaptation as God acting through laws of nature. On the voyage of the Beagle he remained orthodox and looked for "centres of creation" to explain distribution, but towards the end of the voyage began to doubt that species were fixed. By this time he was critical of the Bible as history, and wondered why all religions should not be equally valid.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_ ... les_Darwin
[footnotes redacted, but available on wikipedia

[FarWanderer]

It makes no sense to speak of "alternatives" when there are no reasonable arguments for an Intelligent Creator in the first place.

You could not be more wrong.

The world-renowned historian, Jaroslav Pelikan makes this clear: Regardless of what anyone may personally think or believe about him, Jesus of Nazareth has been the dominant figure in the history of Western culture for almost twenty centuries. If it were possible, with some sort of super magnet, to pull up out of that history every scrap of metal bearing at least a trace of his name, how much would be left? It is from his birth that most of the human race dates its calendars, it is by his name that millions curse and in his name that millions pray.

D. James Kennedy and Jerry Newcombe examine what has happened in history that displays the influence of the (Christian) church. Here are a few highlights they cite (in their book What If Jesus Had Never Been Born?):

Hospitals, which essentially began during the Middle Ages.
Universities, which also began during the Middle Ages. In addition, most of the worlds greatest universities were started by Christians for Christian purposes.
Literacy and education of the masses.
Representative government, particularly as it has been seen in the American experiment.
The separation of political powers.
Civil liberties.
The abolition of slavery, both in antiquity and in modern times.
Modern science.
The discovery of the New World by Columbus.
Benevolence and charity; the Good Samaritan ethic.
Higher standards of justice.
The elevation of the common man.
The high regard for human life.
The civilizing of many barbarian and primitive cultures.
The codifying and setting to writing of many of the worlds languages.
The greater development of art and music. The inspiration for the greatest works of art.
The countless changed lives transformed from liabilities into assets to society because of the gospel.
The eternal salvation of countless souls.


I know of no one fact in the history of mankind which is proved by better and fuller evidence of every sort, to the understanding of a fair inquirer, than the great sign which God hath given us that Christ died and rose again from the dead. - Thomas Arnold, author of the famous three-volume History of Rome, appointed to the chair of modern history at Oxford

The great truths which the apostles declared, were, that Christ had risen from the dead, and that only through repentance from sin, and faith in Him, could men hope for salvation.
/
Propagating this new faith, even in the most inoffensive and peaceful manner, they could expect nothing but contempt, opposition, revilings, bitter persecutions, stripes, imprisonments, torments, and cruel deaths. Yet this faith they zealously did propagate; and all these miseries they endured undismayed, nay, rejoicing. As one after another was put to a miserable death, the survivors only prosecuted their work with increased vigor and resolution. The annals of military warfare afford scarcely an example of the like heroic constancy, patience, and unblenching courage. They had every possible motive to review carefully the grounds of their faith, and the evidences of the great facts and truths which they asserted; and these motives were pressed upon their attention with the most melancholy and terrific frequency.
It was therefore impossible that they could have persisted in affirming the truths they have narrated, had not Jesus actually risen from the dead, and had they not known this fact as certainly as they knew any other fact. - Simon Greenleaf, (1783 - 1853) Royal Professor of Law at Harvard University

: Indeed, taking all the evidence together, it is not too much to say that there is no historic incident better or more variously supported than the resurrection of Christ. - Brooke Foss Westcott (1825 - 1901) regius professor at Cambridge



We, as Christians, are asked to take a very great deal on trust; the teachings, for example, and the miracles of Jesus. If we had to take all on trust, I, for one, should be skeptical. The crux of the problem of whether Jesus was, or was not, what He proclaimed Himself to be, must surely depend upon the truth or otherwise of the resurrection. On that greatest point we are not merely asked to have faith. In its favour as living truth there exists such overwhelming evidence, positive and negative, factual and circumstantial, that no intelligent jury in the world could fail to bring in a verdict that the resurrection story is true. - Lord Darling, former Chief Justice of England

There remains, therefore, no supposition possible to explain the recorded phenomenon except the combination of the fructification and rupture of the heart. - Samuel Houghton, M.D., great physiologist from the University of Dublin

You made a long post, but where's the argument for an Intelligent Creator?

Also most of your list would be best credited to the printing press. If Christianity were really such an awesome and progressive cultural force, you would expect the Renaissance to have happened in like, the 4th or 5th century.

[Starman]

Also most of your list would be best credited to the printing press. If Christianity were really such an awesome and progressive cultural force, you would expect the Renaissance to have happened in like, the 4th or 5th century.

Let me explain. These are a few of the countless such testimonies which constitute a portion of the "evidence" atheists so ardently and disingenuously request, indeed demand. No matter what evidence is offered, the response of atheists is always the same. It is unacceptable, for any of a hundred reasons. Nothing ever can satisfy atheist petulant demands.

But IF atheists are as moral as they claim, where is the evidence of that? Where are the atheist hospitals, orphanages, soup kitchens, not of the 4th or 5th century, but of the 21st century? Where are the atheist colleges, not of the 4th or 5th century, but of today? Atheists such as you dodge these legitimate questions and merely sit back proclaiming your own virtue, and declaiming "xtians".

Nothing could be more hollow, less persuasive than virtuous boasts without a shred of evidence even being presented.

[DanieltheDragon]

[Replying to post 408 by Starman]

Where are the atheist hospitals, orphanages, soup kitchens, not of the 4th or 5th century, but of the 21st century?

You mean like UNICEF, Doctors without borders, the Red Cross, KiVA, and Barnardos?

Virtually every secular government has hospitals orphanages and means to address poverty. Japan has one of the highest rates of atheism in the world and they have hospitals and universities and orphanages etc.

Are you suggesting only Christians do these things?