I am seriously questioning my atheism

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Haven

I am seriously questioning my atheism

Post #1

Post by Haven »

Disclaimer: This post may be out of place on the Christianity and Apologetics forum (even though it does have some relation to Christianity), if it is, I apologize and ask that it be moved to a more appropriate place on the forum. However, I do intend this thread to be a discussion, if not a debate, so I felt this was the best place for it.

As many of you know, I am an ex-evangelical Christian and a current atheist. By "atheist," I mean I lack belief in god(s) of any kind, although I do not assert that there are definitely no gods. Since departing from Christianity, everything has made so much more sense: an eternal Universe (defined as the totality of natural existence) explained existence, evolution explained the diversity of life on earth, the absence of god(s) explained the problems of evil, inconsistent revelation, and so on.

However, there is one thing that I have been unable to account for under atheism: morality. Atheists almost invariably state that moral values and duties are not objective facts, but are simply subjective statements of preference and have no ontological value. That is, of course, until we are presented with cases of true evil, such as the Holocaust, the atrocities of Pol Pot, or the horrible psychopathic serial killings of individuals like Jeffery Dahmer. Then we as atheists tacitly appeal to objective moral values and duties, saying that individuals who commit should be severely punished (even executed) for doing "evil," saying that they "knew right from wrong." But if right and wrong are simply statements of subjective opinion, then how can we say that others knew "right from wrong" and are accountable for their actions? If relativism is true, they simply had differing opinions from the majority of human beings. However, it seems obvious to me (and to the vast majority of others, theist and atheist alike) that this is absurd -- the monsters who carried out the aforementioned acts really, objectively did evil.

Given this, the only reasonable conclusion is that moral facts and imperatives exist.

However, atheism appears to offer no framework for moral facts. Because of this, a few weeks ago, I started up a discussion on Wielenbergian moral realism, which states that objective moral values are simply "brute facts" that exist without any explanation. However, others rightly pointed out that the existence of "brute facts" is ontologically problematic and that the best explanation (on atheism) is that morality is simply subjective. Additionally, even if atheistic moral facts existed, the Humeian problem of deriving an "ought" from an "is" would preclude them from acting as moral imperatives; commands which human beings are obligated to follow.

In light of these airtight logical objections to atheistic moral realism, I was forced to abandon my position on moral facts and tentatively adopt moral relativism. However, relativism still seems problematic. After all, if morality is subjective, no one person can accuse another of failing to recognize the difference between "right and wrong," however, it is obvious to me (and, I would suspect, to other atheists as well) that right or wrong really objectively (not subjectively) exist.

The only rational conclusion I can seem to come up with is that there is a (are) transcendent moral lawgiver(s) who both grounds moral facts and issues binding moral commands on all humanity; i.e., God(s). This echoes evangelical Christian philosopher William Lane Craig's moral argument, which syllogism reads:
WLC wrote:Premise 1: If God does not exist, then objective moral values and duties do not exist.
Premise 2: Objective moral values and duties do exist
Conclusion: Therefore, God exists
Premises 1 and 2 seem bulletproof -- (1) was demonstrated earlier in this post, leaving (2) as the only premise to attack. However, (2) seems to be as obvious as a hand in front of my face. The conclusion necessarily follows from (1) and (2), so is there any rational reason for me to reject the conclusion of the argument?

Remember, I am no believer of any kind. I am a staunch, educated, informed atheist, and I am well aware of the philosophical arguments against God(s), such as the problem of evil, the dysteleological argument, the problem of omniscience, etc. I'm also well aware of the plentiful empirical evidence against the existence of God(s), for instance, evolution, mind-body physicalism, etc. These are the reasons I reconverted from Christianity in the first place. However, I don't see way around this problem other than to accept either that our apparently obvious sense of moral facts is somehow mistaken, or that (a) theistic being(s) exist.

Debate question: Are my issues with atheism legitimate? Can atheism provide a coherent moral framework other than nihilism, relativism, or subjectivism? Do these problems really present evidence for theism? Is William Lane Craig right? Is this a real problem for atheism, or are my (our) emotions simply overriding my (our) rationality?

Feel free to present evidence for or against atheism, Christianity, or any religious or nonreligious perspective in this thread.

Artie
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Re: I am seriously questioning my atheism

Post #411

Post by Artie »

1robin wrote:I think the point is that there was no point. Even if it were known (and it isn't) that animals behave altruistic on occasion that doesn't mean that evolution is responsible. The obvious natural outworking of evolution is the success of the strong at the expense of the weak.
As I have pointed out before: In a social context when organisms cooperate it is not the survival of the fittest or physically strongest but of those who behave morally that ensures that the individual and the group survives! How many times must I quote the same passages?
It is obvious that it would be a benefit to the strong to remove the weak, because the weak take supply away from the strong and contribute little or nothing. Darwin's title On the Origin of Species by Means of Natural Selection, or the Preservation of Favoured Races in the Struggle for Life, illustrates this point perfectly. This title would also suggest that racism is perfectly consistent with evolution no matter how much sugar coating or selective spin the theory is given. It is so obvious that I don't know why evolutionists resist admitting it. It doesn't suggest that it is false just morally bankrupt.
Well, I thought there was hope and tried my best but must admit defeat. Please don't go on a holy war against evolutionists. Live long and prosper.

olavisjo
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Re: I am seriously questioning my atheism

Post #412

Post by olavisjo »

Haven wrote: I agree, however, I have rejected objective morality because of the lack of evidence for gods and the lack of evidence for objective morals themselves. I'm now a moral non-cognitivist, meaning that I view moral statements not as truth propositions but as statements of feeling, esthetic, and preference. That doesn't mean I have no sense of right or wrong (I certainly do), that just means that my moral senses are feelings, not facts.
Do I understand you? Would you agree that...

It is not a fact that "what Hitler did was wrong", it is only a feeling that many people share. And that feeling is no more valid than the feeling of the many people who feel that "what Hitler did was good".
"I believe in no religion. There is absolutely no proof for any of them, and from a philosophical standpoint Christianity is not even the best. All religions, that is, all mythologies to give them their proper name, are merely man’s own invention..."

C.S. Lewis

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Jax Agnesson
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Re: I am seriously questioning my atheism

Post #413

Post by Jax Agnesson »

olavisjo wrote: Would you agree that...

It is not a fact that "what Hitler did was wrong", it is only a feeling that many people share. And that feeling is no more valid than the feeling of the many people who feel that "what Hitler did was good".

I debated this matter with a self-described Strasserite about thirty years ago.
He was a National Socialist, and I was an Internationalist Socialist.
He claimed that the foundation for his morality was duty; first to family, then to nation, then to race. My basis for morality was a recognition of our our common humanity.
We discovered that, because of this foundational difference, it was impossible for either of us to prove the other wrong, or even to construct arguments the other could recognise as valid.. We were able to agree on just two things:
We agreed that we held each other's values in contempt, and would do whatever we could to oppose the other's political activities. And we agreed that either moral position, of tribalism or universalism, could be derived from Christian Scripture.
FWIW, he was a practising Catholic, and I was an atheist.
I've no idea what happened to that man since, but I have remained atheist, socialist, and passsionately opposed to racism and anti-Semitism. So no, I for one do not believe that my morals are 'no more valid' than his were at that time; I feel, with every fibre of my being, that the moral and political values he espoused are utterly repulsive and anti-human. It's just that I do not have any way to prove the validity of this position to a person whose conscious moral decision-making is based on a set of beliefs completely opposed to my own.

1robin
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Re: I am seriously questioning my atheism

Post #414

Post by 1robin »

Artie wrote:
1robin wrote:I think the point is that there was no point. Even if it were known (and it isn't) that animals behave altruistic on occasion that doesn't mean that evolution is responsible. The obvious natural outworking of evolution is the success of the strong at the expense of the weak.
As I have pointed out before: In a social context when organisms cooperate it is not the survival of the fittest or physically strongest but of those who behave morally that ensures that the individual and the group survives! How many times must I quote the same passages?
It is obvious that it would be a benefit to the strong to remove the weak, because the weak take supply away from the strong and contribute little or nothing. Darwin's title On the Origin of Species by Means of Natural Selection, or the Preservation of Favoured Races in the Struggle for Life, illustrates this point perfectly. This title would also suggest that racism is perfectly consistent with evolution no matter how much sugar coating or selective spin the theory is given. It is so obvious that I don't know why evolutionists resist admitting it. It doesn't suggest that it is false just morally bankrupt.
Well, I thought there was hope and tried my best but must admit defeat. Please don't go on a holy war against evolutionists. Live long and prosper.
I have nothing against evolutionists because of the implications of the theory. I heard what you have been stating I just don't agree. Does Preservation of Favoured Races in the Struggle for Life in some strange way suggest that all races are acting consistently moral. I can't imagine anything more obvious or natural than the conclusion that evolutions greatest driving force is competition which implies confrontation. Can you explain why allowing the sick or weak to compete with the strong would be beneficial to the strong. And don't worry I am too lazy to engage in a holy war.

PGA
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Re: I am seriously questioning my atheism

Post #415

Post by PGA »

Hi Artie,
I agree, there is a lack of evidence for gods. When I speak of God I have a specific deity in mind - the God revealed in the Jewish and Christian Scriptures. –Me
Hello PGA. There is also a lack of evidence for the Christian God as there is for every other god. –Artie
I disagree that there is lack of evidence for the Christian God. The evidence is everywhere. The reason people fail to see it is because their word-view – the foundation they see the world through – will not allow them to see the evidence. No one is neutral. We all come to the table with basic core beliefs. These core beliefs are the foundation on which your house is built upon. If you look at the world through a different set of core beliefs then you would no longer hold the same world-view you currently do. But to my mind the key is whether your core/foundation is true and solid. If it is not then your whole house is eventually going to tumble as the truth errors its shaky foundation.
Yet most people around the world have an innate sense that taking another persons wallet because they want it is wrong/bad. Most people around the world realize that murder is wrong, stealing is wrong, lying is wrong/bad. These seem to be universals, applicable in every culture. If all we are is a pile of biological chemical reactions why do we have these apparent universal values? How do morals come from inorganic matter without conscious? Where do you ever see this happening? –Me
We see it everywhere. Organisms started cooperating. Cooperating organisms survived better because they cooperated. Cooperation automatically developed a common code of behavior called morals. You can see this everywhere in the animal world. Mongooses support elderly, sick, or injured animals, bonobos have been observed aiding injured or handicapped bonobos, Vervet Monkeys give alarm calls to warn fellow monkeys of the presence of predators, even though in doing so they attract attention to themselves, increasing their personal chance of being attacked, African buffalo will rescue a member of the herd captured by predators and on and on and on. –Artie
The question is where does this intent come from in the first place? Without intent all that exists is chance. Intent requires mind. There is no uniformity in nature without meaning and purpose - mind. After all, here you are, an individual mind/person with intelligence, meaning and intent proposing that this all started by chance happenstance (without Person, Mind and intelligence) all the while using that mind, intent, meaning and purpose and intelligence to prove so. So I think it is reasonable to ask out of such suppositions why, from a chance, unintentional universe we have these ordered, logical, complex, information driven organisms and systems? Why is there something that exists rather than nothing and what made that something come into being? These are life’s ultimate questions and until they are addressed we are not getting to the heart of the issue, IMO.

How does life come from the non-living? How does consciousness come from the non-conscious? How does mind come from the mindless, how does logic come from the irrational, how do morals come from the amoral, how does personal being come from the impersonal? Please explain and prove that they do. You see, you just presuppose they do. You chose to believe there is no God. I have yet to see an atheistic world-view give solid proof that it does. In reality all we ever witness is mind, being, person, logic, intelligence, information coming from being.
When humans evolved we formulated these moral codes into words like the Ten Commandments or the Golden Rule and integrated them into religions or made them into laws and integrated them into justice systems. Of course an objective morality is logically impossible. Where would it come from? It obviously couldn't come from God because it would be His subjective morality. –Artie
That is one way to look at it. But is it correct? Another way is that we have an innate sense of right and wrong because we are made in God’s image and likeness, that as humans we can use reason and logic and God has revealed to us what is right and wrong. But because of the Fall of man something horrible has happened, each man is trying to establish his own relative sense of value judgments so that he can self-indulge and do what he wants to – be his own boss, so to speak. People do not want to retain the image of God in their lives for then they understand that they are morally accountable and there is perfect justice that they are going to fall short of. That is a biblical response to why at least. Have you ever thought the perhaps the reason we have so many world religions is that man wants to worship God on his own terms rather than on the terms that God has decreed and that he senses that there has to be a God in order to make sense of any of this? Man wants to be that 'authority' not God. Why are/were 99% of the people who have lived in this world religious? IMO atheism can’t answer the tough questions of life and it seems to borrow Christian ideas at the same time denying the Christian God.

There are various proofs that I can offer for the Christian God, some of which I have briefly touched on above.

1robin
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Re: I am seriously questioning my atheism

Post #416

Post by 1robin »

PGA wrote:Hi Artie,
I agree, there is a lack of evidence for gods. When I speak of God I have a specific deity in mind - the God revealed in the Jewish and Christian Scriptures. –Me
Hello PGA. There is also a lack of evidence for the Christian God as there is for every other god. –Artie
I disagree that there is lack of evidence for the Christian God. The evidence is everywhere. The reason people fail to see it is because their word-view – the foundation they see the world through – will not allow them to see the evidence. No one is neutral. We all come to the table with basic core beliefs. These core beliefs are the foundation on which your house is built upon. If you look at the world through a different set of core beliefs then you would no longer hold the same world-view you currently do. But to my mind the key is whether your core/foundation is true and solid. If it is not then your whole house is eventually going to tumble as the truth errors its shaky foundation.
Yet most people around the world have an innate sense that taking another persons wallet because they want it is wrong/bad. Most people around the world realize that murder is wrong, stealing is wrong, lying is wrong/bad. These seem to be universals, applicable in every culture. If all we are is a pile of biological chemical reactions why do we have these apparent universal values? How do morals come from inorganic matter without conscious? Where do you ever see this happening? –Me
We see it everywhere. Organisms started cooperating. Cooperating organisms survived better because they cooperated. Cooperation automatically developed a common code of behavior called morals. You can see this everywhere in the animal world. Mongooses support elderly, sick, or injured animals, bonobos have been observed aiding injured or handicapped bonobos, Vervet Monkeys give alarm calls to warn fellow monkeys of the presence of predators, even though in doing so they attract attention to themselves, increasing their personal chance of being attacked, African buffalo will rescue a member of the herd captured by predators and on and on and on. –Artie
The question is where does this intent come from in the first place? Without intent all that exists is chance. Intent requires mind. There is no uniformity in nature without meaning and purpose - mind. After all, here you are, an individual mind/person with intelligence, meaning and intent proposing that this all started by chance happenstance (without Person, Mind and intelligence) all the while using that mind, intent, meaning and purpose and intelligence to prove so. So I think it is reasonable to ask out of such suppositions why, from a chance, unintentional universe we have these ordered, logical, complex, information driven organisms and systems? Why is there something that exists rather than nothing and what made that something come into being? These are life’s ultimate questions and until they are addressed we are not getting to the heart of the issue, IMO.

How does life come from the non-living? How does consciousness come from the non-conscious? How does mind come from the mindless, how does logic come from the irrational, how do morals come from the amoral, how does personal being come from the impersonal? Please explain and prove that they do. You see, you just presuppose they do. You chose to believe there is no God. I have yet to see an atheistic world-view give solid proof that it does. In reality all we ever witness is mind, being, person, logic, intelligence, information coming from being.
When humans evolved we formulated these moral codes into words like the Ten Commandments or the Golden Rule and integrated them into religions or made them into laws and integrated them into justice systems. Of course an objective morality is logically impossible. Where would it come from? It obviously couldn't come from God because it would be His subjective morality. –Artie
That is one way to look at it. But is it correct? Another way is that we have an innate sense of right and wrong because we are made in God’s image and likeness, that as humans we can use reason and logic and God has revealed to us what is right and wrong. But because of the Fall of man something horrible has happened, each man is trying to establish his own relative sense of value judgments so that he can self-indulge and do what he wants to – be his own boss, so to speak. People do not want to retain the image of God in their lives for then they understand that they are morally accountable and there is perfect justice that they are going to fall short of. That is a biblical response to why at least. Have you ever thought the perhaps the reason we have so many world religions is that man wants to worship God on his own terms rather than on the terms that God has decreed and that he senses that there has to be a God in order to make sense of any of this? Man wants to be that 'authority' not God. Why are/were 99% of the people who have lived in this world religious? IMO atheism can’t answer the tough questions of life and it seems to borrow Christian ideas at the same time denying the Christian God.

There are various proofs that I can offer for the Christian God, some of which I have briefly touched on above.
Very well reasoned points. Dr Ravi Zacharias makes a good case for the fact that many societies seem to smuggle in Christian values while all the while trying to get rid of God. An example would be the Christian idea of the sanctity of life or the inherent value of human life. There is no justification for this idea in evolution.

Artie
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Re: I am seriously questioning my atheism

Post #417

Post by Artie »

PGA wrote:How does life come from the non-living? How does consciousness come from the non-conscious? How does mind come from the mindless, how does logic come from the irrational, how do morals come from the amoral, how does personal being come from the impersonal? Please explain and prove that they do. You see, you just presuppose they do. You chose to believe there is no God.
Nothing you have said is an argument for the Christian God. Why have you chosen to believe in the Christian God instead of Allah or Brahman or any other god? Or didn't you have any choice? Did you just happen to be born or raised in an environment where the main religion happens to be Christianity? Your arguments could as easily have been forwarded by a Muslim or a Hindu.
That is one way to look at it. But is it correct? Another way is that we have an innate sense of right and wrong because we are made in God’s image and likeness, that as humans we can use reason and logic and God has revealed to us what is right and wrong.
This very good argument for the Christian God is logically sound and I can't explain it. In a social context when organisms cooperate it is not the survival of the fittest or physically strongest but of those who behave morally that ensures that the individual and the group survives. According to evolution these are traits that should have become more and more pronounced as organisms developed. According to evolution we should have become more and more moral as we see in bonobos and mongoose. And yet we haven't. Something happened. According to the Bible we are different from the animals because we were made in the image of God. And that makes sense. If we are made in the image of the homicidal, genocidal God described in the Bible it is no wonder we are a homicidal, genocidal race capable of producing Hitlers and capable of atrocities not known in the animal kingdom. You have a good point.
Have you ever thought the perhaps the reason we have so many world religions is that man wants to worship God on his own terms rather than on the terms that God has decreed and that he senses that there has to be a God in order to make sense of any of this? Man wants to be that 'authority' not God. Why are/were 99% of the people who have lived in this world religious?
This has been known for decades and is studied in the field of neurotheology.

"Scientists say they have located the parts of the brain that control religious faith. And the research proves, they contend, that belief in a higher power is an evolutionary asset that helps human survival."

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/scien ... 41022.html

It is evolution that has given you the circuitry in the brain that encourages your belief in higher powers. The more the brain is wired for belief, the more fundamental and immovable the belief. Which explains all the different religions and belief systems and willingness to commit any number of immoral atrocities in the name of religion.

PGA
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Re: I am seriously questioning my atheism

Post #418

Post by PGA »

Hi Robin,
Very well reasoned points. Dr Ravi Zacharias makes a good case for the fact that many societies seem to smuggle in Christian values while all the while trying to get rid of God. An example would be the Christian idea of the sanctity of life or the inherent value of human life. There is no justification for this idea in evolution. –Robin
Yes, I think he is brilliant. I’ve heard the same point made by many great apologists and I think it sticks. Greg Bahnsen and Cornellius Van Til are the two I associate the idea from. Bahnsen’s Van Til’s Apologetics is a great, deep book on presuppositional apologetics that really set my mind thinking on these problems as well as the issues of epistemology, authority and truth among a host of other issues.

I like what Kenneth Samples Without a Doubt had to say about God that evolutionist’s can’t say about evolution. This is not a quote but a condensing of the headings that he addresses in ‘How we can know that God exists.’ (p. 22-32)
God accounts for the beginning of the physical universe, for order, design and complexity, for the abstract and non-physical realities, for objective moral values, for why there is meaning, value and purpose, for man’s sense of the divine, for the enigma of man, for the claims, character and credentials of Jesus Christ and for meaningful realities in life. You can add quite a good list to this I’m sure. One thing I am thinking of is the uniformity of nature; that is why things continue the way they do and why we can make predictions and have sure knowledge of how things work, which would also include natural laws. In a universe that comes about by chance or has no intent to it this is a complete mystery. How does random, chance, happenstances create natural laws?

These views can be expanded upon.

Haven

Re: I am seriously questioning my atheism

Post #419

Post by Haven »

olavisjo wrote: Do I understand you? Would you agree that...

It is not a fact that "what Hitler did was wrong", it is only a feeling that many people share. And that feeling is no more valid than the feeling of the many people who feel that "what Hitler did was good".
Somewhat -- the moral condemnations of such actions themselves are based on feelings. However, that doesn't mean there are no objective reasons to oppose genocide.

Haven

Re: I am seriously questioning my atheism

Post #420

Post by Haven »

Jax Agnesson wrote: . . . We discovered that, because of this foundational difference, it was impossible for either of us to prove the other wrong, or even to construct arguments the other could recognise as valid . . .
This is true. Individuals with widely differing beliefs often can't even argue on the same terms. For another example of this, see the fruitless discussions between empiricist or rationalist atheists and presuppositionalist evangelical Christians -- each point one makes goes right over the other's head.
. . . but I have remained atheist, socialist, and passsionately opposed to racism and anti-Semitism.
Me too. It's nice to meet another socialist! Sadly, most people see socialism as some sort of bogeyman when it is obviously not. Still, this is a discussion for another thread.
So no, I for one do not believe that my morals are 'no more valid' than his were at that time; I feel, with every fibre of my being, that the moral and political values he espoused are utterly repulsive and anti-human. It's just that I do not have any way to prove the validity of this position to a person whose conscious moral decision-making is based on a set of beliefs completely opposed to my own.
I'd agree with this fully. I'd like to think my moral values are superior to those of the Nazi, but as morality is not propositional, I can't do that on purely intellectual grounds.

Solidarity,

Haven :)

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