Moral objective values...

[whisperit]

[font=Verdana]In one of his papers, Dr. William Lane Craig (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Lane_Craig) argues moral objective values is to say something is right or wrong independently of whether anybody believes it to be so. If God does not exist, what is the foundation for moral objective values?[/font][/url]

[Artie]

Am not sure if you are in agreement here. I still see this as either:
some humans have a different version of the Golden rule, or
some humans are faulty and can not have a "global" Golden Rule, or
the Gulden rule is faulty, or
the Gulden rule is false, or
all of the above, or
some combination of the above.

Humans are not perfect clones, so how can there be a "global" Golden rule?

I haven't answered your post point by point because if you can actually state "And that does not tell me why Tomatoes do not have the same "Golden Rule" or a different one "built-in" I can't take anything you say seriously. Some of your questions have such obvious answers that just asking them should be unnecessary.

The Golden Rule says "One should treat others as one would like others to treat oneself" and is simply one of many moral codes that evolved as we started living together in groups. They apply to all the members of the group and ensure best possible cooperation and therefore best possible survival chances for the group.

[olavisjo]

WHAT is being discussed 'under university considerations?' What are these considerations?

Yes, the quality considerations! Not Donald Duck by Walt Disney! The valid academics...

Not the "if I'm allowed to write my own Bible with p*rn in it too?" and other verbiage.

Get it? Easy!

----
(Edit:) Plain: University = intelligence.

Sorry. That response adds nothing to the debate and fails to clarify what you are attempting to communicate.

[JohnA]

Am not sure if you are in agreement here. I still see this as either:
some humans have a different version of the Golden rule, or
some humans are faulty and can not have a "global" Golden Rule, or
the Gulden rule is faulty, or
the Gulden rule is false, or
all of the above, or
some combination of the above.

Humans are not perfect clones, so how can there be a "global" Golden rule?

I haven't answered your post point by point because if you can actually state "And that does not tell me why Tomatoes do not have the same "Golden Rule" or a different one "built-in" I can't take anything you say seriously. Some of your questions have such obvious answers that just asking them should be unnecessary.

The Golden Rule says "One should treat others as one would like others to treat oneself" and is simply one of many moral codes that evolved as we started living together in groups. They apply to all the members of the group and ensure best possible cooperation and therefore best possible survival chances for the group.

And I disagree that such a rule can be universal for humans.
We did get something from evolution, but I am not convinced that this golden rule is one of our part of it.
And and I think that science has no clear answer either.
The tomato example is relevant because all life are linked. The tomato has more genes than humans. People and tomatoes share as much as 60 percent of the same genes.
And I agree, debating point for point is pointless.

[Artie]

And I disagree that such a rule can be universal for humans. We did get something from evolution, but I am not convinced that this golden rule is one of our part of it.
And and I think that science has no clear answer either.
The tomato example is relevant because all life are linked. The tomato has more genes than humans. People and tomatoes share as much as 60 percent of the same genes.
And I agree, debating point for point is pointless.

Universal for humans living in communities where cooperation enhances chances of survival. Tomatoes haven't got brains.

[JohnA]

And I disagree that such a rule can be universal for humans. We did get something from evolution, but I am not convinced that this golden rule is one of our part of it.
And and I think that science has no clear answer either.
The tomato example is relevant because all life are linked. The tomato has more genes than humans. People and tomatoes share as much as 60 percent of the same genes.
And I agree, debating point for point is pointless.

Universal for humans living in communities where cooperation enhances chances of survival. Tomatoes haven't got brains.

But some humans do not adhere to this rule.
I never claimed tomatos had brains. But the fact that all life is linked via the last universal ancestor is undeniable. Does chimps and lions have brains?

[keithprosser3]

But some humans do not adhere to this rule.

I'd say no human adheres to the golden rule 100% of the time.

The golden rule isn't a description of how people actually behave (clearly it isn't that) - isn't it just a principle that that when one keeps the golden rule one is being 'moral' and when one breaks it one is being 'immoral'?

[Artie]

But some humans do not adhere to this rule.

So what? You see humans are different. Some humans are tall some are short, some are fat some are thin, some are black some are white, some don't adhere to this rule most do. Are you serious with these statements of yours or are you just playing?

I never claimed tomatos had brains. But the fact that all life is linked via the last universal ancestor is undeniable. Does chimps and lions have brains?

Now I know you can't be serious. Yes, chimps and lions have brains.

[Artie]

But some humans do not adhere to this rule.

I'd say no human adheres to the golden rule 100% of the time.

The golden rule isn't a description of how people actually behave (clearly it isn't that) - isn't it just a principle that that when one keeps the golden rule one is being 'moral' and when one breaks it one is being 'immoral'?

It is just a way to describe a behavior that has been selected for because it enhances chances of survival for the group where the individuals behave this way.

[JohnA]

But some humans do not adhere to this rule.

So what? You see humans are different. Some humans are tall some are short, some are fat some are thin, some are black some are white, some don't adhere to this rule most do. Are you serious with these statements of yours or are you just playing?

I never claimed tomatos had brains. But the fact that all life is linked via the last universal ancestor is undeniable. Does chimps and lions have brains?

Now I know you can't be serious. Yes, chimps and lions have brains.

I never claimed all humans looks the same. You claim that there is some universal rule built-in humans that not all humans adhere to. How is that coherent?
I can make it worse for you.
You claim that there is some universal rule built-in some (not all) animals that some of these animals do not adhere to.
I make no excuse for my lack of incoherency.

[Artie]

I never claimed all humans looks the same. You claim that there is some universal rule built-in humans that not all humans adhere to. How is that coherent?

We are born with brain structures hard wired for morality and the ability to differentiate between "right" and "wrong" but since we are all different the hard wiring is different too. Sometimes, like in most serial killers, we can actually see the physical deviation in the brain areas hard wired with morality which have led to the loss of their ability to differentiate between "right" and "wrong". When people are put in jail or even executed we are actually selecting out people who have defective moral hard wiring from the gene pool. It is a form of human evolution by our own selection.