Undeniable and Scientific Evidence of THE Creator.

[Zzyzx]

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From another thread

I present undeniable and scientific evidence of THE Creator.

I await the evidence.

Question for debate: Is the evidence undeniable and scientific (and compelling / convincing) or is it just more of the same stuff that has been presented ad nausea?

[Danmark]

Note to Moderators and our fellow readers:

Since it doesn't seem like my opponents on this topic desire to honestly and fairly debate, but belittle, alter, ignore and even mock my in-depth and clear analogies, and me pointing out the clear dictionary contradictions which came over the so called ....

This is a personal attack and rant: "it doesn't seem like my opponents on this topic desire to honestly.... I will face their puns, denial, cheap-shots the same way....
... oh you'll come around to it! Need some smelling salts?"
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[arian]

You don't like the idea that things can pop out of nothing. I feel for you.
But just because you don't like some idea, means NOTHING about any other idea. Sorry, kid. That doesn't add up. You are making a huge non sequitur leap of logic that cannot be followed. Would you LIKE to make a reasoned argument?

So you DO "like the idea that things pop out of nothing?" Please provide evidence of things on earth "popping out of nothing." Explain such events using scientific precepts and considerations. Don't just MOUTHE the word "science" and pretend that it makes you erudite. SHOW IT. For a change.

So, no. You don't understand the science you want to talk about.

Your ad hominem attack of course goes unchallenged by the moderators. The leftist hypocrisy is sickening. You spoke not a single word of science and then talk down on others, as is so common not only here, but nationwide. Stalin would have approved. He and Hitler loved Darwinian racism and the prospect of a superior breed, or ubermenschen. Today leftists consider themselves ubermenschen.... "understand(ing) the science" even when they don't mention a word of it.

Hello my friend Starman, I didn't say those things, Blastcat did, he's new. Just to let you know.

I like your answer though!

Thanks.

[arian]

Since it doesn't seem like my opponents on this topic desire to honestly and fairly debate, but belittle, alter, ignore and even mock my in-depth and clear analogies,"

I hope this wasn't directed at me, Arian. If so, please find a post of mine and show me where I didn't debate "honestly and fairly", "belittled" "altered" or "mocked" and I will promptly apologize.

In fairness, I have ignored some of your posts, but it was mostly as a result of a hopeless feeling of redundancy.

Our posts have gotten tediously and pointlessly long. So, for expediency's sake, I'm only responding to one passage that I feel important. If you feel that you would like to pursue a different one, please query it again, and I will be happy to respond

Yes it did get too long, I agree. And yes, as this last Warning proves, it's probably just me thinking I proved myself, .. chuckle, I get like that after showing what I mean from hundreds of angles, only to have it single-lined; "No, you did not prove anything arian". I'm learning though, .. maybe I need a different approach, something more politically correct, more scientific like the BB-Evolution theories instead of always sticking with I.D., .. it's so 'Bronze Age', right?

The problem is not that there is not enough evidence of our Creator, but that man refuses to humbly accept it.

I submit that god then isn't trying hard enough. As you say, if it is easy for him to make a donkey talk, it should be even easier for him to show me he exists. Why not a little nudge when I was still unsure about my faith? And yet .... nothing.

That's exactly how I used to think, until I realized that He was always 'nudging' me, and He is also nudging all of us. Only it's not to a point to interfere with our free will, that would be annoying. Even though God is not pushy, He gets blamed for it anyways, even from those that swear up and down that God does not exist.

Well, then. I submit that the picture you paint of god is one that is woefully incompetent. He could very easily show me (or many others) proof without impacting free will. Or is your god not that powerful?

He could stop all evil deeds, evil intentions, even us thinking about anything evil, .. but then you would just say: God is too powerful!

Actually, no I wouldn't. If an omnipotent being revealed himself to me (along with the knowledge of which religion were accurate), I would immediately head to the nearest Mosque, Temple, Church, or Sacred Grove.

Lol, .. 'Sacred Grove', I like that.

This is actually a good example why my posts get so long, I try to explain the surrounding .. ah what do you call that, .. surrounding context to my answers.

Like what you just said, "If an omnipotent being revealed himself to me (along with the knowledge of which religion were accurate) I would immediately head to the nearest Mosque, Temple, Church, or Sacred Grove", when I explained so many times that you will never find our Creator God in any religion, or organized church, or in theology, or in the supernatural realm, or that He is not a Deity but because you can only envision god/gods only through religion, the only acceptable answer for you would be if one from the tens of thousands of gods was to come up to you and tell you personally: "I am the real one!"

This is why "scientific evidence of The Creator" is totally senseless to you guys, and my explanations are immediately written off in your minds as "Rambling, or preaching's, or false claim of science." I understand you, but obviously I am not being understood.

I mean how would you interpret; "Being born again", .. or; "In the newness, .. or in the renewing of your mind" ?

But you dodged my question. He could easily reveal himself (like in many of the bible tales) without impacting free will. I could have easily remained a believer, with a little nudge in the right direction at the right time.

I explained that too, many times. God 'nudges us all the time, at the perfect time, during good times, and during bad. But when we are sitting in church staring up at a huge statue whom we believe is God, He will not make that idol talk for us.

Again; "It's a mind thing" and if we refuse to meet God on the Spiritual plain with our spiritual mind, .. well we will just never see Him then.
You need help understanding this 'spiritual' thing? Read the Bronze aged fairytale the Bible. See what I mean?

We want to have free will, we want to hide from this All-seeing All-knowing God!

Perhaps you do. But I'm not hiding from anything. In fact, most atheists I know search for knowledge, and would welcome new information. This is counter to what most major religions desire.

Yes, search for knowledge that fit their pre-programmed education, and Bronze-aged books on 'talking donkeys' could never be considered to 'educate'. And as I said, I say again, .. religions demand blind-faith, so no, you will never get the answer from there either.

Read your Bible, it explains all that in there.

I have read many parts (but not all) of the bible. And so far, no, the answers are not forthcoming.

Acts 8:27 So he arose and went. And behold, a man of Ethiopia, a eunuch of great authority under Candace the queen of the Ethiopians, who had charge of all her treasury, and had come to Jerusalem to worship, 28 was returning. And sitting in his chariot, he was reading Isaiah the prophet. 29 Then the Spirit said to Philip, “Go near and overtake this chariot.�

30 So Philip ran to him, and heard him reading the prophet Isaiah, and said, “Do you understand what you are reading?�

31 And he said, “How can I, unless someone guides me?� And he asked Philip to come up and sit with him.

That's why I used scientific evidence along with Biblical supporting evidence, you should be able to start seeing who God is.
But even with all the scientific study on the mind, you don't consider my finds scientific, and the Bible you consider a Bronze aged fairytale with an evil God that's presented in there who almost wiped out the whole world, and punishes people with eternal torture, so of course you cannot see/hear God. The picture that has been painted for you of Him is truly horrendous, .. why would you even want to 'know more' about this evil God, especially to become a child of this God, .. right?
I understand, I do. Satan won, his deceptions are far more accepted over absolute truths, .. oh yea, . what IS absolute truth in evolutionary terms anyways, right?

Take care.

[Zzyzx]

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Yes it did get too long, I agree. And yes, as this last Warning proves, it's probably just me thinking I proved myself, .. chuckle,

Careful reading of the warning indicates that it was issued for personal attack as well as ranting. Overly long posting is not in itself indicative of a rant – but lack of substance is.

I get like that after showing what I mean from hundreds of angles,

One angle missing is scientific (as claimed).

only to have it single-lined;

"Single-lined?" Many responses to your posts have been very detailed – often line-for-line taking apart of what you write.

"No, you did not prove anything arian".

That response is appropriate when one has not provided provide actual scientific evidence of a creator. Pontificating about one's thoughts, opinions and claimed personal experiences does NOT constitute science. Claiming special knowledge while failing to demonstrate even rudimentary knowledge of science is NOT convincing.

There are members who actually do have a scientific background and do recognize that personal testimonials and unsubstantiated rants do not qualify as scientific.

I'm learning though, ..

Oh?

maybe I need a different approach, something more politically correct, more scientific like the BB-Evolution theories

If one claims to have scientific evidence they should be able to PRODUCE that evidence to support their claims.

instead of always sticking with I.D., .. it's so 'Bronze Age', right?

Actually, biblical times in the Mediterranean area are classified as Iron Age rather than Bronze Age.

This is why "scientific evidence of The Creator" is totally senseless to you guys,

"Senseless" applies to presenting testimonials, pontifications, and opinions and calling them "science."

and my explanations are immediately written off in your minds as "Rambling, or preaching's, or false claim of science."

Try presenting actual scientific evidence of a creator and you might be taken seriously.

I understand you,

Many have presented sound, reasoned, rational responses that can be understood

but obviously I am not being understood.

Could that be because what has been presented to date as "Undeniable and Scientific Evidence of THE Creator" is neither scientific nor evidence – and certainly not undeniable?

Personal opinions really do not qualify as science.

[arian]

Yes it did get too long, I agree. And yes, as this last Warning proves, it's probably just me thinking I proved myself, .. chuckle,

Careful reading of the warning indicates that it was issued for personal attack as well as ranting. Overly long posting is not in itself indicative of a rant – but lack of substance is.

Yes sir! (Is that the desired substance you're looking for?)

I get like that after showing what I mean from hundreds of angles,

One angle missing is scientific (as claimed).

Yes sir, I guess I wrongly believed that describing the 'mind' separate from the brains neurological-impulses (brain waves) was somehow scientific.

I retract this from your OP or any such foolish idea like that there is anything other then the physical reality, that which we could see, touch, smell,

.. except for black holes and multiverses, or anything that NASA-approved scientists deem scientific, .. those are OK, oh yea and religion is ok, like Big-bangs, and bacteria turning into animals, chimp-like apes over billions of years even if they were never observed. So following new forum rules religious ideas are ok because according to evolutionists scientists that observe cave paintings say religion, gods, demons evolved over billions and billions of years by the physical brain, even though we cannot see, touch or hear the actual religious ideas, .. those too are OK, as long as I admit it is the result of evolution. Got it.

only to have it single-lined;

"Single-lined?" Many responses to your posts have been very detailed – often line-for-line taking apart of what you write.

That's true, there were those too, so I recant on the single-lined responses, the responses were in-depth scientific ones, while my responses are continuously preaching, using Bronze aged, .. sorry I mean Iron-aged Bible verses, ramblings, emotional outbreaks, observed science instead of the preferred un-observed scientific religious stories.

"No, you did not prove anything arian".

That response is appropriate when one has not provided provide actual scientific evidence of a creator. Pontificating about one's thoughts, opinions and claimed personal experiences does NOT constitute science. Claiming special knowledge while failing to demonstrate even rudimentary knowledge of science is NOT convincing.

What the hell is so hard in looking at something, dissecting it, finding a pumping muscle and call it "a heart!" Or breaking up a rock and start naming different minerals?? Even the Evolutionists cave ancestors could do it, anyone can. Science is to observe the world around us, not making up billion year old hocus-pocus ramblings of it that becomes so confusing even to the Sci-Fientists that they start using the word 'assume', beginning of every sentence.
But hey, yes sir, I will stick to the politically correct, and Agenda 21 approved-rudimentary science that has been accepted world-wide!
(does this mean I still have to go to the FEMA camps for reprogramming?)

There are members who actually do have a scientific background and do recognize that personal testimonials and unsubstantiated rants do not qualify as scientific.

Yes sir, .. unless the personal testimonials and unsubstantiated rants have been approved by NASA, or the Big-bang Evolution Sci-Fientists, .. got it.

I'm learning though, ..

Oh?

Oops, sorry, .. I meant "I am submitting, obeying, following proper indoctrinations, the New-World-Order mindset, I am recycling my foolish sub-human ideologies and following Agenda 21 protocols!" (better?)

maybe I need a different approach, something more politically correct, more scientific like the BB-Evolution theories

If one claims to have scientific evidence they should be able to PRODUCE that evidence to support their claims.

Yes sir, it's just hard for me to explain something I observe in the here and now through "once upon a time, long, long ago" billion year old stories, which is today considered real science. Well exscoouuse me for being old fashioned, like I said, I'm learning.

Oh, if you want to help me stop conflicting Big Bang with Evolution, can you have your buddies remove this 'proper NASA approved-religious depictions of the BB', .. or just remove the 'evolution' word from it!?:

https://www.google.com/search?q=big+ban ... 39&bih=601

Uneducated people like me may get the wrong ideas and conflict the two.

instead of always sticking with I.D., .. it's so 'Bronze Age', right?

Actually, biblical times in the Mediterranean area are classified as Iron Age rather than Bronze Age.

Aahh.. it changes so quick, I just can't keep up! Almost as fast as the age of our universe, and the ages in evolution-theory. I still can't figure out which came first, the chicken or the egg? It's like a race, .. sometimes the chicken came first, other times it's the egg, .. ?

This is why "scientific evidence of The Creator" is totally senseless to you guys,

"Senseless" applies to presenting testimonials, pontifications, and opinions and calling them "science."

Yes, like I said, I will have to learn to use more assumptions, wild hypothesis, science fiction, more outrageous testimonials, pontifications, and opinions from Evolutionists like Dawkins to describe my 'scientific evidence', maybe that will get the proof across in a way new-scientist could understand?
Something like: "For 13 billion years the mind evolved through brain waves which in turn created the brain which then over the millions of years mimicked a mind! So the brain creates ideas which it throws up in the air, comes back down to the brain which goes and acts on it." See, I'm sounding more and more sci-fientific, right? If it don't make sense and flies over peoples heads, .. it must be right. After all, they should know, no one gets their stories, this is so people would just throw their hands up in the air and say: "Oh, I give up, .. you guys must be right, .. the Bankers are behind you 100%"

and my explanations are immediately written off in your minds as "Rambling, or preaching's, or false claim of science."

Try presenting actual scientific evidence of a creator and you might be taken seriously.

Oh I'm being taken seriously alright, I am more watched and tracked then Osama Bin Laden ever has been. Even he could post a YouTube video occasionally, but me, they took all my video editing programs, .. even took my MS Word program down right after I registered it. Just like my PC Bible programs, all $600 + $$ worth. It's like being under house arrest.

I understand you,

Many have presented sound, reasoned, rational responses that can be understood

Yeah, understood with a science-fiction language converter which I doubt they would allow me to have one, .. lol.
Example: We assume the universe is expanding (converted = We know the universe is expanding
Evolution hypothetic assumed theory (converted = Evolution happens, even if we are wrong about the Big bang and the universe is not even here.
Something like that.

but obviously I am not being understood.

Could that be because what has been presented to date as "Undeniable and Scientific Evidence of THE Creator" is neither scientific nor evidence – and certainly not undeniable?

As I said many times: "Religion depends on blind-faith" so The scientific observable proof/evidence of our Creator would destroy every religion on the face of the earth, all 6,000 years worth of 10's and 10's of thousands of them. Every sci-fi assumption, billion$ of worth of investment and countless man hours in all the deception to keep people 'believing' because no one wants to be 'Left Behind', and this kind of magic costs money, big money! But the return is hundred and even thousand fold, just ask any big TV Minister, .. or just ask the Pope himself?

Personal opinions really do not qualify as science.

No, not unless it has been approved by NASA and the New World What We say Science Means Organization, or NWWWSMO-NASA division.

[Zzyzx]

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Oh I'm being taken seriously alright, I am more watched and tracked then Osama Bin Laden ever has been. Even he could post a YouTube video occasionally, but me, they took all my video editing programs, .. even took my MS Word program down right after I registered it. Just like my PC Bible programs, all $600 + $$ worth. It's like being under house arrest.

It must be terrible to have "them" watching your every move. Why do you suppose "they" are more interested in you than "they" were in Osama Bin Laden?

Has it occurred to you that I might be a secret agent for NSA or the FBI on an assignment to trick you into revealing the sources of your knowledge?

Also consider that I might be a representative of religion assigned to block your revelations that would destroy all religion. Or an agent from NASA, New World Order, Agenda 21, Big-bang Evolution Sci-Fientists, FEMA, etc.

Boggles the mind (separate from the brain) doesn't it?

[KenRU]

The problem is not that there is not enough evidence of our Creator, but that man refuses to humbly accept it.

I submit that god then isn't trying hard enough. As you say, if it is easy for him to make a donkey talk, it should be even easier for him to show me he exists. Why not a little nudge when I was still unsure about my faith? And yet .... nothing.

That's exactly how I used to think, until I realized that He was always 'nudging' me, and He is also nudging all of us. Only it's not to a point to interfere with our free will, that would be annoying. Even though God is not pushy, He gets blamed for it anyways, even from those that swear up and down that God does not exist.

Well, then. I submit that the picture you paint of god is one that is woefully incompetent. He could very easily show me (or many others) proof without impacting free will. Or is your god not that powerful?

He could stop all evil deeds, evil intentions, even us thinking about anything evil, .. but then you would just say: God is too powerful!

Actually, no I wouldn't. If an omnipotent being revealed himself to me (along with the knowledge of which religion were accurate), I would immediately head to the nearest Mosque, Temple, Church, or Sacred Grove.

Lol, .. 'Sacred Grove', I like that.

This is actually a good example why my posts get so long, I try to explain the surrounding .. ah what do you call that, .. surrounding context to my answers.

Like what you just said, "If an omnipotent being revealed himself to me (along with the knowledge of which religion were accurate) I would immediately head to the nearest Mosque, Temple, Church, or Sacred Grove", when I explained so many times that you will never find our Creator God in any religion, or organized church, or in theology, or in the supernatural realm, or that He is not a Deity but because you can only envision god/gods only through religion, the only acceptable answer for you would be if one from the tens of thousands of gods was to come up to you and tell you personally: "I am the real one!"

You seem to be ignoring what my point was. If the big G came down or paid me a visit and told me a specific religion was the one he wanted me following, you can bet your keester I’m going to believe him and not you. So, yes, I would, and I would strongly recommend you do as well, head off to which ever holy ground god pointed out.

This is why "scientific evidence of The Creator" is totally senseless to you guys, and my explanations are immediately written off in your minds as "Rambling, or preaching's, or false claim of science."

So, if god pays you a visit, and says “Arian, my son� (in James Earl Jones like booming voice), Hinduism is my path to salvation that I have chosen for you. Heed my words and get thee to the nearest Hindu temple.�

You wouldn’t?

I understand you, but obviously I am not being understood.

You’re understood, Arian. The problem is that you can’t wrap your head around the idea that people do not believe the conclusions you are drawing.

I mean how would you interpret; "Being born again", .. or; "In the newness, .. or in the renewing of your mind" ?

Depends on context of the document being read.

But, as a general rule, how about “fresh start� or “from a new point of view, unclouded by history�? That work for you?

But you dodged my question. He could easily reveal himself (like in many of the bible tales) without impacting free will. I could have easily remained a believer, with a little nudge in the right direction at the right time.

I explained that too, many times. God 'nudges us all the time, at the perfect time, during good times, and during bad. But when we are sitting in church staring up at a huge statue whom we believe is God, He will not make that idol talk for us.

Never thought he would, though he could. However, the perfect time for me would have been in my late teens, early twenties when my belief system was in flux – being assailed by logic and mounds of facts contradictory to nearly everything Christianity was trying to foist upon me.

So, are you saying god dropped the ball with me? Unless you are willing to argue that when I was looking for answers (anything to explain away the doubts and uncertainties created by a curious mind) I missed a sign from god, you’d have to admit that the big man upstairs missed a golden opportunity to keep one more soul in his stable.

Again; "It's a mind thing" and if we refuse to meet God on the Spiritual plain with our spiritual mind, .. well we will just never see Him then.

And when I was ready and willing to do this, in fact, when I (supposedly) needed it the most (and was absolutely not refusing anything), what happened? God was on a lunch break?

We want to have free will, we want to hide from this All-seeing All-knowing God!

Perhaps you do. But I'm not hiding from anything. In fact, most atheists I know search for knowledge, and would welcome new information. This is counter to what most major religions desire.

Yes, search for knowledge that fit their pre-programmed education, and Bronze-aged books on 'talking donkeys' could never be considered to 'educate'. And as I said, I say again, .. religions demand blind-faith, so no, you will never get the answer from there either.

Arian, I can say with complete sincerity, and I challenge you to say the same thing, if what I believe to be true about the world (age, evolution, genetics, etc) were suddenly disproved by new science or religion, I would be fine with it. And I would adapt to whatever new truth was shown to be true.

Can you say the same? Would you be willing to forgo what you think you know (the bible and god and Christianity) if proven not true?

If not, then your accusation about blind faith applies to you and not me.

Read your Bible, it explains all that in there.

I have read many parts (but not all) of the bible. And so far, no, the answers are not forthcoming.

Acts 8:27 So he arose and went. And behold, a man of Ethiopia, a eunuch of great authority under Candace the queen of the Ethiopians, who had charge of all her treasury, and had come to Jerusalem to worship, 28 was returning. And sitting in his chariot, he was reading Isaiah the prophet. 29 Then the Spirit said to Philip, “Go near and overtake this chariot.�

30 So Philip ran to him, and heard him reading the prophet Isaiah, and said, “Do you understand what you are reading?�

31 And he said, “How can I, unless someone guides me?� And he asked Philip to come up and sit with him.

That's why I used scientific evidence along with Biblical supporting evidence, you should be able to start seeing who God is.
But even with all the scientific study on the mind, you don't consider my finds scientific, and the Bible you consider a Bronze aged fairytale with an evil God that's presented in there who almost wiped out the whole world, and punishes people with eternal torture, so of course you cannot see/hear God. The picture that has been painted for you of Him is truly horrendous, .. why would you even want to 'know more' about this evil God, especially to become a child of this God, .. right?
I understand, I do. Satan won, his deceptions are far more accepted over absolute truths, .. oh yea, . what IS absolute truth in evolutionary terms anyways, right?

So, (according to your belief system) when god flooded the world, did he allow innocent people to suffer or not?

If yes, then that is the work of a fairy tale villain.

[Clownboat]

Oh, if you want to help me stop conflicting Big Bang with Evolution...

Uneducated people like me may get the wrong ideas and conflict the two.

I am more watched and tracked then Osama Bin Laden ever has been

but me, they took all my video editing programs, .. even took my MS Word program down right after I registered it.

[Danmark]

Something like: "For 13 billion years the mind evolved through brain waves which in turn created the brain which then over the millions of years mimicked a mind! So the brain creates ideas which it throws up in the air, comes back down to the brain which goes and acts on it." See, I'm sounding more and more sci-fientific, right?

No. That sounds like lunacy or fantasy.
What is your definition of "scientific?"

[arian]

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Oh I'm being taken seriously alright, I am more watched and tracked then Osama Bin Laden ever has been. Even he could post a YouTube video occasionally, but me, they took all my video editing programs, .. even took my MS Word program down right after I registered it. Just like my PC Bible programs, all $600 + $$ worth. It's like being under house arrest.

It must be terrible to have "them" watching your every move. Why do you suppose "they" are more interested in you than "they" were in Osama Bin Laden?

Because Osama Bin Laden, like ISIS work for "them". They knew what Osama, just as they know what ISIS will do 'next' because "they" give them the orders and the instructions as to what to do next. But me, I don't get my orders or the instructions from "them", this makes me very dangerous to "them", so they have to keep a close 'EYE' on me.

Has it occurred to you that I might be a secret agent for NSA or the FBI on an assignment to trick you into revealing the sources of your knowledge?

May very well be, but I see you more of a 'Jade Helm' guy, keeping an 'EYE' and an EAR out over the Wall Mart closings and morphing into Military suppliers. I mean I don't know, I just have a strong feeling like that about you. Maybe I'm wrong?

Also consider that I might be a representative of religion assigned to block your revelations that would destroy all religion.

YES! Yes that is more like it. I mean just imagine 'religion' with all their gods all of a sudden vanish off the face of the earth if you would allow, and even support the undeniable scientific evidence for the Creator? All them T-shirts with all them symbolisms, music videos, .. I mean what would poor Miley Cyrus, Lady Gaga and the thousands of others do for a living? What would you debate on a religious forum? All this endless debate against a God you say you don't believe even exists, the Bronze Aged Book that you desperately try to convince people that it is nothing but fairytales of talking donkeys? What other 'non-existent' things will you rail against then?

Or an agent from NASA, New World Order, Agenda 21, Big-bang Evolution Sci-Fientists, FEMA, etc.

If you are not against such things, then you are for them. Let's not leave out; Jade Helm and ISIS, .. I mean here is a no brainer, ISIS are beheading Catholics, when half of them are Catholics, or Catholic Muslims, .. or 'Islam', which is a Catholic created religion that was supposed to wipe out the Jews from Israel so the Pope could claim Jerusalem as his holy-city. What ISIS is doing used to be a Jesuit job, but now that the Jesuits moved up on the Pyramid ladder as 'God on earth' they had to organize a new army, which they named another of the Churches gods; ISIS.

Boggles the mind (separate from the brain) doesn't it?

.. especially for the poor animal-apes who go through life by instinct. That's why they don't even want to talk about these things, it hurts their brain to even think about it.