Why Christianity Must Change or Die

[kayky]

This is the title of one of John Shelby Spong's most well-known books. Spong refers to himself as "a believer in exile" because he can no longer relate to "orthodox" Christianity. Many thinking Christians identify with this position completely.

Consider the following passage from this book:

Creedal language comes out of another time. It reflects assumptions that this generation can no longer make. It thus employs a language that is not native to us. If we could just cease being believers, these problems would disappear. But some of us cannot cease believing. God is too real for us. We also cannot resign from our modern world or close our minds to its insights. We cannot pretend that we live in the first century. We cannot park our brains at the door of our places of worship in order to accept as real the words that were used to interpret God in years past but can no longer today illumine our understanding of God.

Is it time for forward-thinking denominations to rewrite the Nicene Creed in order to reflect a modern understanding of Christianity?

[JoeyKnothead]

Yes, this has been on the news. I have long been suspicious of the benefits of overt evangelism in foreign cultures. It has obviously, in this case, caused a dangerous mix with the superstition endemic to the native culture.

Is that the native culture of Christianity, or of Nigeria? Or both?

[Cathar1950]

This is the title of one of John Shelby Spong's most well-known books. Spong refers to himself as "a believer in exile" because he can no longer relate to "orthodox" Christianity. Many thinking Christians identify with this position completely.

Consider the following passage from this book:

Creedal language comes out of another time. It reflects assumptions that this generation can no longer make. It thus employs a language that is not native to us. If we could just cease being believers, these problems would disappear. But some of us cannot cease believing. God is too real for us. We also cannot resign from our modern world or close our minds to its insights. We cannot pretend that we live in the first century. We cannot park our brains at the door of our places of worship in order to accept as real the words that were used to interpret God in years past but can no longer today illumine our understanding of God.

Is it time for forward-thinking denominations to rewrite the Nicene Creed in order to reflect a modern understanding of Christianity?

Considering that Spong's diocese dramatically shrunk during his tenure, he's the last person to advise on how to promote Christianity. In contrast, Bible-believing, orthodox parts of the Anglican Communion are growing tremendously. Nigeria, for example, has more Anglicans in church on Sundays than the US, UK, and Canada combined.

If they are leaving you the Bible Believer says the Bible says they would but if it is someone that disagrees with them then it is a sign that they are wrong.
How does a group of believers claiming rejection by the world see growth as a good thing?

[bernee51]

And where christianity goes - mindless intolerance and superstitious or criminal manipulation soon follows...

and hospitals and schools and feeding programs and orphanages and...

And, in my personal experience, in India of the disruption of whole communites with children literally turned against their parents and sisters against brotherss, and husbands against wives.

Where the tribal village structure is disrupted by the introduction of christianity to the point where the community collapses.

Feeding programs coming with bibles and 'strings' are not humanist - they are manipulative.

Desmond Tutu noted:

When the missionaries came to Africa they had the Bible and we had the land. They said, 'Let us pray.' We closed our eyes. When we opened them we had the Bible and they had the land.

Yes, this has been on the news. I have long been suspicious of the benefits of overt evangelism in foreign cultures. It has obviously, in this case, caused a dangerous mix with the superstition endemic to the native culture.

Like introducing 'democracy' at the point of a gun.

[kayky]

Schools teaching the children that contraception is evil and subsequently said hospitals filled with HIV infected civilians.

This seems to be a criticism of Roman Catholicism, something I do not feel qualified to discuss in detail except to say that I strongly disagree with the Pope's position on this matter.

[East of Eden]

This is the title of one of John Shelby Spong's most well-known books. Spong refers to himself as "a believer in exile" because he can no longer relate to "orthodox" Christianity. Many thinking Christians identify with this position completely.

Consider the following passage from this book:

Creedal language comes out of another time. It reflects assumptions that this generation can no longer make. It thus employs a language that is not native to us. If we could just cease being believers, these problems would disappear. But some of us cannot cease believing. God is too real for us. We also cannot resign from our modern world or close our minds to its insights. We cannot pretend that we live in the first century. We cannot park our brains at the door of our places of worship in order to accept as real the words that were used to interpret God in years past but can no longer today illumine our understanding of God.

Is it time for forward-thinking denominations to rewrite the Nicene Creed in order to reflect a modern understanding of Christianity?

Considering that Spong's diocese dramatically shrunk during his tenure, he's the last person to advise on how to promote Christianity. In contrast, Bible-believing, orthodox parts of the Anglican Communion are growing tremendously. Nigeria, for example, has more Anglicans in church on Sundays than the US, UK, and Canada combined.

And where christianity goes - mindless intolerance and superstitious or criminal manipulation soon follows...

Bigotry on parade here.

I'm sure you have heard of the witch children of Nigeria.

Which teachings of Jesus are they following?

[kayky]

Is that the native culture of Christianity, or of Nigeria? Or both?

I don't know all the details of the groups involved; but I strongly suspect that, in this case, both.

[kayky]

And, in my personal experience, in India of the disruption of whole communites with children literally turned against their parents and sisters against brotherss, and husbands against wives.

Where the tribal village structure is disrupted by the introduction of christianity to the point where the community collapses.

Feeding programs coming with bibles and 'strings' are not humanist - they are manipulative.

Desmond Tutu noted:

When the missionaries came to Africa they had the Bible and we had the land. They said, 'Let us pray.' We closed our eyes. When we opened them we had the Bible and they had the land.

Unfortunately that is often the case. I think it is good to offer humanitarian aid, but I feel strongly that cultures be left to develop at their own pace and in their own way. I often wonder, when I consider the history of my ancestors, if I might not be a druid right now had not St. Gregory the Great interfered! Minus the human sacrifices in peat bogs, it does speak to something primevil in my blood...

By the way, I had the great priviledge of hearing Reverend Tutu speak in person when I was in college. It was during the days of Apartheid, and the loving gentleness of this man, living in the face of oppression, was palpable in the auditorium.

Yes, this has been on the news. I have long been suspicious of the benefits of overt evangelism in foreign cultures. It has obviously, in this case, caused a dangerous mix with the superstition endemic to the native culture.

Like introducing 'democracy' at the point of a gun.

Exactly. It is arrogant to assume that we know what is best for foreign cultures. It's a tricky business when human rights are involved (I think especially of the plight of women in some Muslim cultures); but we often make things worse when we go blundering in, assuming our superiority and lacking respect for the wisdom of history.

[bernee51]

This is the title of one of John Shelby Spong's most well-known books. Spong refers to himself as "a believer in exile" because he can no longer relate to "orthodox" Christianity. Many thinking Christians identify with this position completely.

Consider the following passage from this book:

Creedal language comes out of another time. It reflects assumptions that this generation can no longer make. It thus employs a language that is not native to us. If we could just cease being believers, these problems would disappear. But some of us cannot cease believing. God is too real for us. We also cannot resign from our modern world or close our minds to its insights. We cannot pretend that we live in the first century. We cannot park our brains at the door of our places of worship in order to accept as real the words that were used to interpret God in years past but can no longer today illumine our understanding of God.

Is it time for forward-thinking denominations to rewrite the Nicene Creed in order to reflect a modern understanding of Christianity?

Considering that Spong's diocese dramatically shrunk during his tenure, he's the last person to advise on how to promote Christianity. In contrast, Bible-believing, orthodox parts of the Anglican Communion are growing tremendously. Nigeria, for example, has more Anglicans in church on Sundays than the US, UK, and Canada combined.

And where christianity goes - mindless intolerance and superstitious or criminal manipulation soon follows...

Bigotry on parade here.

An unsubstanitated claim on your part - please point out the bigotry in my comment.

What my comment reflects is the history of religious evangelism and the intolerance of the beliefs of others it generated.

(Oh THAT Spanish Inquisition)

I'm sure you have heard of the witch children of Nigeria.

Which teachings of Jesus are they following?

Yep - unlike you they are not 'true christians'(tm)

Do YOU accept that the beliefs of others are as valid as yours?

[JoeyKnothead]

Is that the native culture of Christianity, or of Nigeria? Or both?

I don't know all the details of the groups involved; but I strongly suspect that, in this case, both.

I like you. I do 'preciate seeing someone I consider a "defender" of the faith who is able to see through the "dogma", and who presents a religious belief I consider quite rational and logical. Anytime I see a person speak against the wrongs or errors in their "own" belief, I am compelled to give such person's words greater weight when considering their, or my own position.

For those keeping score at home, this is twice now I've tried to "strike" at kayky, and I've got the two bloody stumps for my efforts.

[bernee51]

For those keeping score at home, this is twice now I've tried to "strike" at kayky, and I've got the two bloody stumps for my efforts.

"Just a flesh wound...."