What is atheism?

Argue for and against Christianity

Moderator: Moderators

Locked
De Maria
Sage
Posts: 729
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2005 9:05 pm
Contact:

What is atheism?

Post #1

Post by De Maria »

Definitions of atheist on the Web:

someone who denies the existence of god
related to or characterized by or given to atheism; "atheist leanings"
wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn]

atheism - the doctrine or belief that there is no God
wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

atheistic - rejecting any belief in gods
wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

One who rejects or is ignorant of theism.
www.jabcreations.com/philosophy/philoso ... itions.php

As used by most self-claimed atheists in means lack of belief in an organized religion. In the dictionary, an atheist is someone who do not believe in a God. ...
stobie.home.sprynet.com/work/oxymorons.htm

An individual who rejects the notion of a supreme being that exists outside of the abilities of modern science to either prove or disprove.
jewishscientist.wordpress.com/definitions/

atheism - A belief that there are no gods. Greek "a-theos": without-god. [see the 'Atheism' page for complete information]
www.reasoned.org/glossary.htm


In a debate with FT, the exchange went as follows:
Filthy Tugboat wrote:


What beliefs are you referring to?
De Maria wrote: You call yourself an atheist.
Definitions of atheist on the Web:

someone who denies the existence of god
related to or characterized by or given to atheism; "atheist leanings"
wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

Atheist is defined as someone who denies the existence of God.
Filthy Tugboat wrote:That is an anti-theist, not an atheist. An atheist is someone who says that there is insufficient evidence for a god.
Apparently atheists have become aware that there is no way they can prove their belief with objective evidence, so they have decided to blur the line between atheism and agnosticism:

Agnosticism is the view that the truth value of certain claims—especially claims about the existence of any deity, but also other religious and metaphysical claims—is unknown or unknowable. ...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnostic

What say you?

Sincerely,

De Maria

De Maria
Sage
Posts: 729
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2005 9:05 pm
Contact:

Post #51

Post by De Maria »

AkiThePirate wrote:
[color=red]WinePusher[/color] wrote:I don't see that. We're talking about what atheism is, and if an atheist is the converse of a theist (one who believes in God) then its definition should be one who does not believe in God.
I see it as clearly visible implicitly, especially in the dichotomies presented.
Questions like "Do you believe that God exists or not?" when coupled with the definitions given and the inferences made imply that atheism, theism and agnosticism are the only options which exist.
Nope. The point is that atheism and agnosticism are not the same thing. Atheism has a meaning. Agnosticism has another meaning.
[color=green]WinePusher[/color] wrote:This one is right. Like I said, there is a distinction between atheism and agnosticism for a reason. If they both meant the same thing then why do we still need the term agnostic?
Well, if we're being pedantic about it then do we really need both 'Theist' and 'Deist'? They're both similar.
Definition of DEISM

: a movement or system of thought advocating natural religion, emphasizing morality, and in the 18th century denying the interference of the Creator with the laws of the universe

Definition of THEISM

: belief in the existence of a god or gods; specifically : belief in the existence of one God viewed as the creative source of the human race and the world who transcends yet is immanent in the world

Sounds like two different meanings to me.
The reason we have both is that they convey levels of this belief as well as possible subtle differences. For example, an agnostic might believe that such matters are unknowable, or an atheist may well be a strong-atheist.
Might being the key word here. However, agnosticism and atheism remain distinct words with distinct meanings.

User avatar
scourge99
Guru
Posts: 2060
Joined: Wed Jul 01, 2009 3:07 am
Location: The Wild West

Post #52

Post by scourge99 »

De Maria wrote:
scourge99 wrote: "Atheist/atheism" is an almost entirely useless word. Its as useless as non-astrologer or a-fairyist. It tells nothing about the beliefs of another.
Its only addressing one belief. The belief that God does not exist. In that respect, it is perfect.
Are you unaware there are many philosophical theories and definitions for "belief"?
Are you unaware there are many philosophical theories and definitions for "existence"?
If you are aware then how can you say its “perfect�?

here is a link from someone else listing some different theories about “belief�: http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 253#351253

Its clear from this that a discussion on belief or disbelief in a gods existence is ANYTHING but clear except to those who share similar assumptions. Nonetheless, I partially agree that in general, the definition of "atheist" is someone who does not believe in the existence of God. But you need to be very careful of ASSUMING to know more of others beliefs than you are told simply because they self-define as atheist. It just makes you look petty and dishonest when you try to tell others what they believe.

De Maria wrote:
Furthermore, things become even more hectic and confusing because there are so many different lines of thought regarding what it means to "believe" or "know" (in a god or anything else). Philosophy on this matter runs the gamut from intuition, to justification, to affirmation, to absolute certainty... to name a few.

I propose that instead of trying to pigeonhole others with such a dysfunctional word, you simply ask them about their beliefs, knowledge, intuition, etc. You'll find yourself in a far more productive conversation/debate if you do.
You're joking right?

The only atheists I've met on this forum like to sit back and snipe at the beliefs of Christians and other believers. They hide behind the "I don't have any beliefs" line and shoot down any attempt at intelligent conversation.
De Maria wrote:That is why I set up this thread. To put us on equal footing. I can be just as skeptical about atheism as atheists are about Christianity.
It is 100% EXPECTED and REASONABLE that if a Christian makes a claim about Christian beliefs then an atheist or Muslim or another Christian can question those beliefs and the questioner is NOT required to present their own. This is known as the burden of proof. Do you understand the burden of proof? It is CRITICAL you comprehend such a thing on this forum (or in any debate for that matter). Moderators will be more than willing to explain it.

If someone makes a positive claim and another challenges that claim then the claimant should defend that claim or retract it. But if a person is challenged, the challenger isn't required to present an alternative. Do you understand that? That means an atheist/buddhist/muslim/etc is under no obligation to present their own personal views when challenging the claims of Christians or others. Many people new to debate are unaware of this or do not understand why.
De Maria wrote:Thanks be to God that I was once an atheist.
:roll:

So many Christians feel inclined to tell others they were once an atheist. No one cares. It’s as though you think it earns you brownie points or special insight into other atheist beliefs. IT DOESN'T because there is NOTHING in common among atheists besides a disbelief in gods. And I've already explained how there is even disagreement regarding that.
De Maria wrote:I recognized the strategy which I once used immediately.
And that doesn't mean anyone here employs that "strategy". Once again you attempt to lump all atheists together as though all or most atheists think similar or alike. Even worse, you assume atheists here think like you because you used to be an atheist.


De Maria wrote:And also, because I was once an atheist, I recognize that all that atheists have is SUBJECTIVE. They can prove nothing with objective evidence. Because they have no objective evidence.
This sounds like a sloppy rehash of long since debunked Sunday morning pastor preaching. You should stick to commenting on your own views rather then discrediting yourself by making baldfaced assertions you can't even bother yourself to substantiate.

De Maria wrote:
Atheists are not a cohesive group.
Don't I know it.
They share nothing in common but a lack of belief in god(s) (assuming they even agree on what a lack of belief is). And that lack of belief entails NOTHING else in common. Thus, your attempt to chastise atheists as having some type of collective purpose or agenda is in error.
They may not be a cohesive group. But they are a group. And they congregate and form clubs and other memberships which have agendas and missions to spread their "religion". Here's an example of organized atheism:
http://www.atheists.org/

Sincerely,

De Maria

So what? SOME atheists do group up, congregate and form clubs. Some atheists do have similar or identical beliefs. MOST don't. You need to let go of this obsession of trying to pigeon-hole "atheism". Instead focus on the individual beliefs and claims of others.

Do we need to get some Christians in here to tell you the same thing for you to consider it seriously?

d.thomas
Sage
Posts: 713
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2007 12:31 am
Location: British Columbia

Post #53

Post by d.thomas »

.




Atheism is a lack of belief.


Agnosticism is a lack of knowledge.



So they're different. So what? What's your point?



.

TheParticlePerson
Scholar
Posts: 251
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2010 11:46 pm

Post #54

Post by TheParticlePerson »

Everyone is an agnostic, whether they know it or not.

User avatar
JoeyKnothead
Banned
Banned
Posts: 20879
Joined: Fri Jun 06, 2008 10:59 am
Location: Here
Has thanked: 4093 times
Been thanked: 2573 times

Post #55

Post by JoeyKnothead »

From Post 23:
De Maria wrote: There is no evidence that God does not exist...
Nor is there evidence that one actually does exist. Given the dearth of evidence in favor, and the understanding that humans are quite creative, and quite prone to projecting human traits onto other objects, it is my contention atheism is the more reasonable conclusion.
De Maria wrote: By your own logic, the only conclusion available is that God exists.
Only if one fails to understand my argument.
De Maria wrote:
JoeyKnothead wrote: Yes, I deny the existence of gods.
Then prove that gods do not exist.
Part of the proving of the negative is in the inability to show the positive. While not a direct piece of evidence, when combined with other evidence regarding religious belief as a human construct, we can say with a high degree of certainty that gods, as commonly understood, do not exist.

We see anthropomorphic projection related to most to all of the gods I'm aware of, and here I contend we have another piece of the puzzle pointing to human origins for god belief. A compelling example, imo, is that where there's a "peaceful, loving" theist, they present a twin of a god, and where there's a "surly cuss" of a person, there's a "surly cuss" of a god.

This, I contend, is compelling, to conclusive evidence that god belief is borne of the human psyche, the human condition.
De Maria wrote: If god belief is a human endeavor and you don't believe in god, what does that mean?
It means I don't buy unevidenced claims simply because they're made.

I refer folks to the OP I presented that lays my evidence out in just a little bit more detail...

Ain't No Gods.

I'm willing to defend such here if it aligns with the OP, or there if that's the best way to go about this line of argument.

User avatar
JoeyKnothead
Banned
Banned
Posts: 20879
Joined: Fri Jun 06, 2008 10:59 am
Location: Here
Has thanked: 4093 times
Been thanked: 2573 times

Post #56

Post by JoeyKnothead »

TheParticlePerson wrote:Everyone is an agnostic, whether they know it or not.
We may well extend that out to being ignostic.

De Maria
Sage
Posts: 729
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2005 9:05 pm
Contact:

Post #57

Post by De Maria »

scourge99 wrote:
De Maria wrote:
scourge99 wrote:....
So what? SOME atheists do group up, congregate and form clubs. Some atheists do have similar or identical beliefs. MOST don't. You need to let go of this obsession of trying to pigeon-hole "atheism". Instead focus on the individual beliefs and claims of others.

Do we need to get some Christians in here to tell you the same thing for you to consider it seriously?
The question being discussed is very simple. What is atheism? Do you have an answer to that question?

TheParticlePerson
Scholar
Posts: 251
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2010 11:46 pm

Post #58

Post by TheParticlePerson »

De Maria wrote:
scourge99 wrote:
De Maria wrote:
scourge99 wrote:....
So what? SOME atheists do group up, congregate and form clubs. Some atheists do have similar or identical beliefs. MOST don't. You need to let go of this obsession of trying to pigeon-hole "atheism". Instead focus on the individual beliefs and claims of others.

Do we need to get some Christians in here to tell you the same thing for you to consider it seriously?
The question being discussed is very simple. What is atheism? Do you have an answer to that question?
Atheism is either believing there is no god or simply lacking a belief in one; to this I think everyone will agree.

User avatar
Slopeshoulder
Banned
Banned
Posts: 3367
Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2010 1:46 pm
Location: San Francisco

Post #59

Post by Slopeshoulder »

TheParticlePerson wrote:Everyone is an agnostic, whether they know it or not.
Post of the year!
And using "know" makes it sublime. Whether intentionally or not.

I agree.
And then we come down in our various places based on emotion, preference, prioritizing, hunches, guesses, judgment, etc.
Which is all good.
I just like when people admit it.

Murad
Guru
Posts: 1216
Joined: Wed Jun 02, 2010 3:32 am
Location: Australia - Sydney

Re: What is atheism?

Post #60

Post by Murad »

Formal Warning
De Maria wrote: You're joking right?

The only atheists I've met on this forum like to sit back and snipe at the beliefs of Christians and other believers. They hide behind the "I don't have any beliefs" line and shoot down any attempt at intelligent conversation.
De Maria wrote: And also, because I was once an atheist, I recognize that all that atheists have is SUBJECTIVE. They can prove nothing with objective evidence. Because they have no objective evidence.
De Maria wrote: So, you can't provide any evidence for your beliefs. So you get upset.

C'est la vie.

*Pending discussion with mods on further action.

*Locking thread for obvious reasons, if theres a good reason to have it unlocked pm me.


.
Do the people think that they will be left to say, "We believe" without being put to the test?
We have tested those before them, for GOD must distinguish those who are truthful, and He must expose the liars.

(Quran 29:2-3)

----
Why Jesus is NOT God
---

Locked