Why do Atheists have a significantly higher rate of Suicide?

[Shermana]

http://www.adherents.com/misc/religion_suicide.html

http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/article ... urnalID=13

According to the American Journal of Psychiatry, those who are religiously affiliated have a "significantly lower" rate of taking their own life.

Why do Atheists and those not religiously affiliated thus have a significantly higher rate? Is Society so overwhelmingly oppressive and religious that it causes the non-believers to want the fast way out? Do Atheists in general have a weaker will to live? Are religious people bullying them so they can't take it anymore? If so, why do countries like South Korea which are nearly 50% Atheist have one of the worst suicide rates? Is it just "part of their culture"?

Unaffiliated subjects were younger, less often married, less often had children, and had less contact with family members.

Now I know from personal experience at least, that Atheists having less contact with family members is not always (or usually) the result of being "shunned" by the religious members, but the result of the Atheist not wanting to be around the religious members. As for being "younger", it's the older folks have by far the highest suicide rate, so there's an anomaly in this variable. Does marriage prevent suicide? (You'd think from the anti-marriage rhetoric it's the opposite). If so, is there a corrolation with the tendency for Atheists to not get married?

[spayne]

You didn't actually answer the questions I asked, but rather wrote around them. I will ask again. Who else but YOU does YOU asking for salvation/forgiveness, "save"?

Another question. If you "chose" bible jesus".. for what reason DID you "choose"?

Also, one thing, I for one did not CHOOSE to be an atheist and I can near guarantee you that if you were to ask any other atheist, on this forum (or elsewhere), they would let you know it was not a choice for them either. (I cannot speak for any agnostic...as to choice vs no choice)

It's interesting to realise that the important things in life, whether good or bad, don't come down to CHOICE. (no not a self serving viewpoint btw, just reality..one that cannot be denied...ie NO CHOICE).

So is someone pointing a gun at your head making you be an atheist? Obviously not. You have chosen to be an atheist, just as I am choosing to be a Christian. I would love to hear you explain why it somehow is not a choice to be an atheist. I would wholeheartedly disagree with you that the important things in life don't come down to choice. To state that there is no choice in life comes a from a victim mentality. Everything people do in life comes down to the choices they make, whether good or bad. And in fact, the Bible has A LOT to say about making good choices. I think perhaps that's why some people don't like to read the Bible. Because it holds us accountable for the choices we make, and states that there will always be consequences to those choices. I also might add that this is a universal concept. It's not just in the Bible.

I would agree with you about the salvation question. My initial choice to accept salvation/forgiveness of course only saves me. Everyone has to make this choice on their own. And if I only left it at that and never grew any more in my faith, then I suppose you could argue that my choice is self serving. However, true believers in Christ are always growing in love, patience, humility, kindness, self control, temperance, and forgiveness. And when those things start to occur, one's salvation definitely does have an influence on other people. For example, if you were to ask my Dad, my sister, my coworkers, and friends who knew me before I converted from Christianity to atheism, they would bear witness to the change that salvation has brought to my life.

Another example might be this conversation we are having. You have said some incredibly rude and presumptuous things to me. I don't feel that I have responded to you in the same way; therefore, my responses are coming from a belief of treating others in the same way that I would like to be treated: with dignity and respect. I attribute my commitment to this as a product of my relationship with Christ.

With regard to your many comments about the homeless ministry, the nature of nonprofits and the gifts to the farmers in Africa: I would like to point out that you are making a lot of incorrect assumptions about these activities. The fact of the matter is that you don't know what we do, and you don't even seem inclined to believe what I have already told you. As an example, when I said that we don't give sermons, I meant that we don't, in fact, give sermons. And with regard to your comment that we are somehow not doing enough because we don't care enough: again, an assumption on your part. The real story is that we have helped many people in countless ways, but we are also limited by how much help people want. For example, we have helped several people get into drug rehab programs; however, we can't make them stay in those programs if they don't want to. And that has, in fact, been the case with a number of people. Sometimes the help we offer them is rejected. Until you are down on the streets, and you actually see this and witness it, with respect, you are making at best a cursory evaluation of what is going on and how effective we are.

And finally, to your comments about the Bible. I have read the entire Bible and I have been a commited Christian for many years. One of the foundations of the Bible is the revelation of who God is, and he makes his character quite evident in many different passages. These passages state over and over that he is a God who is abounding in love, mercy and kindness. Where I think people go wrong is that they don't seem to understand or acknowledge that God allows there to be consequences for the evil/immoral/irreverant behavior of people. Hence, he is criticized for the manner in which he responds not to his evil deeds, but the evil deeds of humanity. This is one of the important themes of the Bible.

So I would say to you again: the message of the Bible is that God has this amazing love for people...including you catalyst. The entire Bible is a love story written by the God who is hopelessly in love with his creation, and wants them to love him in return. Once you encounter this love in a real way, your life is never the same again. You can criticize or reject that for yourself if you would like. But to say that all Christians who have found this kind of love are self-serving is just an incorrect assumption on your part.

[bernee51]

You didn't actually answer the questions I asked, but rather wrote around them. I will ask again. Who else but YOU does YOU asking for salvation/forgiveness, "save"?

Another question. If you "chose" bible jesus".. for what reason DID you "choose"?

Also, one thing, I for one did not CHOOSE to be an atheist and I can near guarantee you that if you were to ask any other atheist, on this forum (or elsewhere), they would let you know it was not a choice for them either. (I cannot speak for any agnostic...as to choice vs no choice)

It's interesting to realise that the important things in life, whether good or bad, don't come down to CHOICE. (no not a self serving viewpoint btw, just reality..one that cannot be denied...ie NO CHOICE).

So is someone pointing a gun at your head making you be an atheist? Obviously not. You have chosen to be an atheist,....

To assume 'choice' assumes an alternative - and there is, for me, no alternative. Being an atheist (for me) is not a choice, it is a conclusion I have come to. I did not sit their and choose between theism and atheism...that is a nonsensical idea.

just as I am choosing to be a Christian.

Did you? Is their any alternative for you? Can you imagine, giving what you believe and beleive you know, NOT being a christian? Where is the choice in that?

I would love to hear you explain why it somehow is not a choice to be an atheist. I would wholeheartedly disagree with you that the important things in life don't come down to choice.

Unless you have a practice to overcome them, all we do in life comes down, not tochoice, but to vasana, i.e past impressions; the impression of anything in the mind, the present consciousness formed from past perceptions, knowledge derived from memory; thinking of, longing for, expectations, desires, inclinations.

To state that there is no choice in life comes a from a victim mentality.

Unless there is a realization of the alternative we are all victims to the illusion of individual self-hood

Everything people do in life comes down to the choices they make, whether good or bad.

Wrong...for very much the the most part people REACT they do not ACT.

And in fact, the Bible has A LOT to say about making good choices. I think perhaps that's why some people don't like to read the Bible. Because it holds us accountable for the choices we make, and states that there will always be consequences to those choices. I also might add that this is a universal concept. It's not just in the Bible.

Many of the worlds wisdom traditions beleive they have recognised the cause of suffering.

I would agree with you about the salvation question. My initial choice to accept salvation/forgiveness of course only saves me.

Saves you from what?

However, true believers in Christ are always growing in love, patience, humility, kindness, self control, temperance, and forgiveness.

This also applies to those who act out of compassion, no special beleif in Christ required.

And when those things start to occur, one's salvation definitely does have an influence on other people. For example, if you were to ask my Dad, my sister, my coworkers, and friends who knew me before I converted from Christianity to atheism, they would bear witness to the change that salvation has brought to my life.

You might like to rephrase that...

I attribute my commitment to this as a product of my relationship with Christ.

And I would attribute MY commitment to the same thing as a product of my relationship with the sacredness of all existence -

So I would say to you again: the message of the Bible is that God has this amazing love for people...including you catalyst. The entire Bible is a love story written by the God who is hopelessly in love with his creation, and wants them to love him in return.

Why?

Once you encounter this love in a real way, your life is never the same again.

And once the true nature of being is realized (made real) life is never the same again.

Tat twam asi

may you be happy, kind, loving and peaceful.

[thatHIPyoungster]

If the statistics only correspond to those that were mentally ill, I don't see how the data can then be used as a blanket statement for all atheists.

[Flail]

bernee51 wrote:

Also, one thing, I for one did not CHOOSE to be an atheist and I can near guarantee you that if you were to ask any other atheist, on this forum (or elsewhere), they would let you know it was not a choice for them either. (I cannot speak for any agnostic...as to choice vs no choice)

I am Ignostic, not atheist, but as a non-believer, I did not in any way choose to 'not believe'. Given the available information and the source material for Christianity, I can't imagine ever being able to make a choice to believe in any of it.

[TheJackelantern]

The fact is, Christianity is not a doctrine of hate, and the God of the Bible is not a volcanic deity. By reading the WHOLE Bible, if one is willing, you see that God is not hateful, but loving.

You obviously have not read the whole bible.. Yeah, everything I posted on the subject is about love! /sarcasm.. Seriously, this must really take some mental gymnastics not seen before to ignore the actual immorality in the bible and then proclaim it's about "love".. :/ The GOD itself proclaims itself as a Jealous deity, and promotes the killing of anything not bowing before it, and loving it.. Clearly you do not comprehend what being "hateful" means.

True love is unconditional first of all.. Secondly, drowning your children in a giant bath tub because you are sorry from having made them, and see them as abominations is hardly demonstrating "love". Nothing like infanticide and genocide right? It's love under the label of righteous! ... That's the kind of mental gymnastics you are trying play here. And it's because you can't actually deal with the reality of the bible being a doctrine that does indeed teach hate and intolerance..

So I am curious, how is the following teaching "Love"? Because I really fail to see where that is teaching "Love"..:

ref:Why%20do%20Atheists%20have%20a%20significantly%20higher%20rate%20of%20Suicide?

It's like watching a CEO of a company that makes flawed propane tanks blame the propane tanks for blowing up in his face, or blowing up and killing some poor child. Anyone ever read the Island of Dr Monroe? Because that is exactly how the bible reads.. Blaming the beasts of your creations for the wrongs they commit, and from a position of utter pure hypocrisy. It's where we can say, Thanks for being such a great role model dad! Hitler just wanted to be just like you when he grew up!. :/

[spayne]

The fact is, Christianity is not a doctrine of hate, and the God of the Bible is not a volcanic deity. By reading the WHOLE Bible, if one is willing, you see that God is not hateful, but loving.

You obviously have not read the whole bible.. Yeah, everything I posted on the subject is about love! /sarcasm.. Seriously, this must really take some mental gymnastics not seen before to ignore the actual immorality in the bible and then proclaim it's about "love".. :/ The GOD itself proclaims itself as a Jealous deity, and promotes the killing of anything not bowing before it, and loving it.. Clearly you do not comprehend what being "hateful" means.

True love is unconditional first of all.. Secondly, drowning your children in a giant bath tub because you are sorry from having made them, and see them as abominations is hardly demonstrating "love". Nothing like infanticide and genocide right? It's love under the label of righteous! ... That's the kind of mental gymnastics you are trying play here. And it's because you can't actually deal with the reality of the bible being a doctrine that does indeed teach hate and intolerance..

So I am curious, how is the following teaching "Love"? Because I really fail to see where that is teaching "Love"..:

ref:Why%20do%20Atheists%20have%20a%20significantly%20higher%20rate%20of%20Suicide?

It's like watching a CEO of a company that makes flawed propane tanks blame the propane tanks for blowing up in his face, or blowing up and killing some poor child. Anyone ever read the Island of Dr Monroe? Because that is exactly how the bible reads.. Blaming the beasts of your creations for the wrongs they commit, and from a position of utter pure hypocrisy. It's where we can say, Thanks for being such a great role model dad! Hitler just wanted to be just like you when he grew up!. :/

You don't actually have an accurate understanding of what the Bible says. I know you think you do, but your ideas are off base and pretty twisted. Case in point: where is infanticide condoned in the Bible? The Bible actually condemns acts of infanticide, which were commonly held as ritualistic ceremonies performed by the Pagan Caananite cultures of the time. Get your facts straight dude and stop spreading all of this hyperbolic nonsense on this board.

[Filthy Tugboat]

The fact is, Christianity is not a doctrine of hate, and the God of the Bible is not a volcanic deity. By reading the WHOLE Bible, if one is willing, you see that God is not hateful, but loving.

You obviously have not read the whole bible.. Yeah, everything I posted on the subject is about love! /sarcasm.. Seriously, this must really take some mental gymnastics not seen before to ignore the actual immorality in the bible and then proclaim it's about "love".. :/ The GOD itself proclaims itself as a Jealous deity, and promotes the killing of anything not bowing before it, and loving it.. Clearly you do not comprehend what being "hateful" means.

True love is unconditional first of all.. Secondly, drowning your children in a giant bath tub because you are sorry from having made them, and see them as abominations is hardly demonstrating "love". Nothing like infanticide and genocide right? It's love under the label of righteous! ... That's the kind of mental gymnastics you are trying play here. And it's because you can't actually deal with the reality of the bible being a doctrine that does indeed teach hate and intolerance..

So I am curious, how is the following teaching "Love"? Because I really fail to see where that is teaching "Love"..:

ref:Why%20do%20Atheists%20have%20a%20significantly%20higher%20rate%20of%20Suicide?

It's like watching a CEO of a company that makes flawed propane tanks blame the propane tanks for blowing up in his face, or blowing up and killing some poor child. Anyone ever read the Island of Dr Monroe? Because that is exactly how the bible reads.. Blaming the beasts of your creations for the wrongs they commit, and from a position of utter pure hypocrisy. It's where we can say, Thanks for being such a great role model dad! Hitler just wanted to be just like you when he grew up!. :/

You don't actually have an accurate understanding of what the Bible says. I know you think you do, but your ideas are off base and pretty twisted. Case in point: where is infanticide condoned in the Bible? The Bible actually condemns acts of infanticide, which were commonly held as ritualistic ceremonies performed by the Pagan Caananite cultures of the time. Get your facts straight dude and stop spreading all of this hyperbolic nonsense on this board.

3 So the LORD our God also gave into our hands Og king of Bashan and all his army. We struck them down, leaving no survivors. 4 At that time we took all his cities. There was not one of the sixty cities that we did not take from them—the whole region of Argob, Og’s kingdom in Bashan. 5 All these cities were fortified with high walls and with gates and bars, and there were also a great many unwalled villages. 6 We completely destroyed[a] them, as we had done with Sihon king of Heshbon, destroying every city—men, women and children. 7 But all the livestock and the plunder from their cities we carried off for ourselves.

Infanticide.

[spayne]

The fact is, Christianity is not a doctrine of hate, and the God of the Bible is not a volcanic deity. By reading the WHOLE Bible, if one is willing, you see that God is not hateful, but loving.

You obviously have not read the whole bible.. Yeah, everything I posted on the subject is about love! /sarcasm.. Seriously, this must really take some mental gymnastics not seen before to ignore the actual immorality in the bible and then proclaim it's about "love".. :/ The GOD itself proclaims itself as a Jealous deity, and promotes the killing of anything not bowing before it, and loving it.. Clearly you do not comprehend what being "hateful" means.

True love is unconditional first of all.. Secondly, drowning your children in a giant bath tub because you are sorry from having made them, and see them as abominations is hardly demonstrating "love". Nothing like infanticide and genocide right? It's love under the label of righteous! ... That's the kind of mental gymnastics you are trying play here. And it's because you can't actually deal with the reality of the bible being a doctrine that does indeed teach hate and intolerance..

So I am curious, how is the following teaching "Love"? Because I really fail to see where that is teaching "Love"..:

ref:Why%20do%20Atheists%20have%20a%20significantly%20higher%20rate%20of%20Suicide?

It's like watching a CEO of a company that makes flawed propane tanks blame the propane tanks for blowing up in his face, or blowing up and killing some poor child. Anyone ever read the Island of Dr Monroe? Because that is exactly how the bible reads.. Blaming the beasts of your creations for the wrongs they commit, and from a position of utter pure hypocrisy. It's where we can say, Thanks for being such a great role model dad! Hitler just wanted to be just like you when he grew up!. :/

You don't actually have an accurate understanding of what the Bible says. I know you think you do, but your ideas are off base and pretty twisted. Case in point: where is infanticide condoned in the Bible? The Bible actually condemns acts of infanticide, which were commonly held as ritualistic ceremonies performed by the Pagan Caananite cultures of the time. Get your facts straight dude and stop spreading all of this hyperbolic nonsense on this board.

3 So the LORD our God also gave into our hands Og king of Bashan and all his army. We struck them down, leaving no survivors. 4 At that time we took all his cities. There was not one of the sixty cities that we did not take from them—the whole region of Argob, Og’s kingdom in Bashan. 5 All these cities were fortified with high walls and with gates and bars, and there were also a great many unwalled villages. 6 We completely destroyed[a] them, as we had done with Sihon king of Heshbon, destroying every city—men, women and children. 7 But all the livestock and the plunder from their cities we carried off for ourselves.

Infanticide.

This is a reference to a wartime situation that would have been extremely violent for both the Israelites and the Amorite/Canaanite kingdom (ie. Og and Bashan). It's easy to vilify the Israelites here, and sympathize with the Amorites. But that fails to take into account that these kingdoms, as defined in the Bible and confirmed by extrabiblical sources, were evil and violent and would have gladly annihilated the Israelites in the same fashion that they were defeated...ie. by completely destroying everyone. That was the cultural and wartime practice of the time. I think it is furthermore beneficial to point out that these kingdoms had cultural practices that most people today would consider irreverant, immoral, unacceptable and evil. This includes familial incestual sexual relationships and marriages, beastiality, and ceremonial sacrifice of children to various types of Pagan gods (which by the way is the real reference to infanticide in the Bible..something that is abhorred and prohibited). Furthermore, and this is most important, the passage doesn't even describe the actions of God. It simply says that God secured the defeat of the Israelites from Og and Bashan. It says nothing about what God did or did not command the Israelites to do, nor what he did or did not approve of.

I think that if you are going to try and argue that the God of the Bible is a god who advocates the killing of children, then you have to find passages that speak to his character, rather than using the actions and behaviours of the Israelites to determine or define what the character of God is. The Bible is replete with references of the Israelites doing things that didn't also please God, and didn't reflect his character. Therefore, it doesn't make sense to judge God based on the bad or even good actions of his people.

And what is the character of God? Abounding in love in love, faithfulness and forgiveness. In the book of Jeremiah (31:3) he says, I have loved you, my people, with an everlasting love. With unfailing love I have drawn you to myself. There are so many more references to his love. God has this amazing love for his creation...and that includes you Filthy Tugboat.

[Filthy Tugboat]

The fact is, Christianity is not a doctrine of hate, and the God of the Bible is not a volcanic deity. By reading the WHOLE Bible, if one is willing, you see that God is not hateful, but loving.

You obviously have not read the whole bible.. Yeah, everything I posted on the subject is about love! /sarcasm.. Seriously, this must really take some mental gymnastics not seen before to ignore the actual immorality in the bible and then proclaim it's about "love".. :/ The GOD itself proclaims itself as a Jealous deity, and promotes the killing of anything not bowing before it, and loving it.. Clearly you do not comprehend what being "hateful" means.

True love is unconditional first of all.. Secondly, drowning your children in a giant bath tub because you are sorry from having made them, and see them as abominations is hardly demonstrating "love". Nothing like infanticide and genocide right? It's love under the label of righteous! ... That's the kind of mental gymnastics you are trying play here. And it's because you can't actually deal with the reality of the bible being a doctrine that does indeed teach hate and intolerance..

So I am curious, how is the following teaching "Love"? Because I really fail to see where that is teaching "Love"..:

ref:Why%20do%20Atheists%20have%20a%20significantly%20higher%20rate%20of%20Suicide?

It's like watching a CEO of a company that makes flawed propane tanks blame the propane tanks for blowing up in his face, or blowing up and killing some poor child. Anyone ever read the Island of Dr Monroe? Because that is exactly how the bible reads.. Blaming the beasts of your creations for the wrongs they commit, and from a position of utter pure hypocrisy. It's where we can say, Thanks for being such a great role model dad! Hitler just wanted to be just like you when he grew up!. :/

You don't actually have an accurate understanding of what the Bible says. I know you think you do, but your ideas are off base and pretty twisted. Case in point: where is infanticide condoned in the Bible? The Bible actually condemns acts of infanticide, which were commonly held as ritualistic ceremonies performed by the Pagan Caananite cultures of the time. Get your facts straight dude and stop spreading all of this hyperbolic nonsense on this board.

3 So the LORD our God also gave into our hands Og king of Bashan and all his army. We struck them down, leaving no survivors. 4 At that time we took all his cities. There was not one of the sixty cities that we did not take from them—the whole region of Argob, Og’s kingdom in Bashan. 5 All these cities were fortified with high walls and with gates and bars, and there were also a great many unwalled villages. 6 We completely destroyed[a] them, as we had done with Sihon king of Heshbon, destroying every city—men, women and children. 7 But all the livestock and the plunder from their cities we carried off for ourselves.

Infanticide.

This is a reference to a wartime situation that would have been extremely violent for both the Israelites and the Amorite/Canaanite kingdom (ie. Og and Bashan).

A wartime situation that resulted in Genocide and infanticide.

It's easy to vilify the Israelites here, and sympathize with the Amorites.

You're damn right it is, they are that much worse than Hitler himself. Seriously, the Israelite behavior in this instance is unforgivable and under any of the rules of war these days, they would be considered war criminals.

But that fails to take into account that these kingdoms, as defined in the Bible and confirmed by extrabiblical sources, were evil and violent and would have gladly annihilated the Israelites in the same fashion that they were defeated...ie. by completely destroying everyone.

Care to support this claim with those extra-Biblical sources?

That was the cultural and wartime practice of the time. I think it is furthermore beneficial to point out that these kingdoms had cultural practices that most people today would consider irreverant, immoral, unacceptable and evil. This includes familial incestual sexual relationships and marriages, beastiality, and ceremonial sacrifice of children to various types of Pagan gods (which by the way is the real reference to infanticide in the Bible..something that is abhorred and prohibited).

I suppose the extra-Biblical support for the other bit should probably cover all of this as well.

Furthermore, and this is most important, the passage doesn't even describe the actions of God. It simply says that God secured the defeat of the Israelites from Og and Bashan. It says nothing about what God did or did not command the Israelites to do, nor what he did or did not approve of.

Fair enough, I'll get another one for you, one that is supposedly a direct quote from God. I'm assuming we are in agreement about what, "completely destroy them," means, yes? If I can find God telling his people to completely destroy them, that will suffice for the whole God condoning it thing?

I think that if you are going to try and argue that the God of the Bible is a god who advocates the killing of children, then you have to find passages that speak to his character, rather than using the actions and behaviours of the Israelites to determine or define what the character of God is. The Bible is replete with references of the Israelites doing things that didn't also please God, and didn't reflect his character. Therefore, it doesn't make sense to judge God based on the bad or even good actions of his people.

Alrighty then, here we go;

1 When the LORD your God brings you into the land you are entering to possess and drives out before you many nations—the Hittites, Girgashites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites, seven nations larger and stronger than you— 2 and when the LORD your God has delivered them over to you and you have defeated them, then you must destroy them totally.[a] Make no treaty with them, and show them no mercy. 3

1 Then the LORD said to Joshua, “Do not be afraid; do not be discouraged. Take the whole army with you, and go up and attack Ai. For I have delivered into your hands the king of Ai, his people, his city and his land. 2 You shall do to Ai and its king as you did to Jericho and its king, except that you may carry off their plunder and livestock for yourselves. Set an ambush behind the city.�

40 So Joshua subdued the whole region, including the hill country, the Negev, the western foothills and the mountain slopes, together with all their kings. He left no survivors. He totally destroyed all who breathed, just as the LORD, the God of Israel, had commanded.

I'm sure there are more but I think this sufficiently makes the point.

And what is the character of God? Abounding in love in love, faithfulness and forgiveness. In the book of Jeremiah (31:3) he says, I have loved you, my people, with an everlasting love. With unfailing love I have drawn you to myself. There are so many more references to his love.

Ones actions are far more telling of their character than what they say and what is said of them.

God has this amazing love for his creation...and that includes you Filthy Tugboat.

Can you blame him? ':joker:'

[TheJackelantern]

This is a reference to a wartime situation that would have been extremely violent for both the Israelites and the Amorite/Canaanite kingdom (ie. Og and Bashan).

To which your GOD condoned... You might want to read the entire Deut,

It's easy to vilify the Israelites here, and sympathize with the Amorites. But that fails to take into account that these kingdoms, as defined in the Bible and confirmed by extrabiblical sources, were evil and violent and would have gladly annihilated the Israelites in the same fashion that they were defeated..

Yes, those little children and all them women were evil!.. So easy to just say they are without providing any tangible or coherent evidence for such an argument. Much less justify it. And I do believe it goes beyond proclaiming them evil since anything not of the religion was considered evil... Worshiping other GOD's was justification for their genocide, and infanticide of others. And by your supposed GOD's blessing.

.ie. by completely destroying everyone. That was the cultural and wartime practice of the time.

makes sense since the religion teaches just that.. Or have you not read genesis, or the bible in its entirety. ??? It's a fire/volcano cult, and their GOD was a war god.. So of course they used war, killing, and burning people alive to spread their religion.

I think it is furthermore beneficial to point out that these kingdoms had cultural practices that most people today would consider irreverant, immoral, unacceptable and evil.

Yeah, it's called their religion... Just like the Christian religion.. Go figure!

This includes familial incestual sexual relationships

News flash... For you to believe in Adam and Eve, you must accept incest.

and marriages, beastiality, and ceremonial sacrifice of children to various types of Pagan gods (which by the way is the real reference to infanticide in the Bible.

News flash, they have this in the bible too!.. Fun stuff. And i do recall that it's not the sacrificing that was the issue in the bible, it was the sacrificing to other GOD's other than theirs. It's clearly stated as such in the bible. Hence the jealous GOD of Yahweh.

Furthermore, and this is most important, the passage doesn't even describe the actions of God.

Eh? I do recall the GOD supposedly speaking in the Deut advocating just that.. Please try again.

It simply says that God secured the defeat of the Israelites from Og and Bashan. It says nothing about what God did or did not command the Israelites to do, nor what he did or did not approve of.

You obviously haven't read it have you?

I think that if you are going to try and argue that the God of the Bible is a god who advocates the killing of children, then you have to find passages that speak to his character, rather than using the actions and behaviours of the Israelites to determine or define what the character of God is.

Is it me, or did you actually ignore half the scripture I posted? Or did you not read Genesis?.. You know, the whole flood thing.. Nah, nobody died in that little drown the children story. "/

The Bible is replete with references of the Israelites doing things that didn't also please God, and didn't reflect his character. Therefore, it doesn't make sense to judge God based on the bad or even good actions of his people.

Again, complete incoherence with what's actually in the bible.

And what is the character of God? Abounding in love in love, faithfulness and forgiveness.

I don't recall a jealous war god that kills everything it thinks is an abomination is exactly "love", or even forgiveness.


In the book of Jeremiah (31:3) he says, I have loved you, my people, with an everlasting love. With unfailing love I have drawn you to myself. There are so many more references to his love. God has this amazing love for his creation...and that includes you Filthy Tugboat.