God and Sin

[JoeyKnothead]

From Post 18 here:

...
I suspect that comment stems from ignorance of the concept of sin against God and its consequences.
...

For debate:

Please show a god considers anything to be a "sin".

Are those who claim to possess such knowledge, but are incapable of showing such to be anything more than their own personal beliefs, guilty of any "ignorance" in this regard?

[Rkrause]

From Post 42:

Facts of eye witness accounts can be different but the events occured none the less.

Then surely you can present an "eyewitness account" that confirms the veracity of the statement laid out in the OP.

Leviticus 20
New International Version (NIV)

Punishments for Sin
20 The Lord said to Moses, 2 “Say to the Israelites: ‘Any Israelite or any foreigner residing in Israel who sacrifices any of his children to Molek is to be put to death. The members of the community are to stone him. 3 I myself will set my face against him and will cut him off from his people; for by sacrificing his children to Molek, he has defiled my sanctuary and profaned my holy name. 4 If the members of the community close their eyes when that man sacrifices one of his children to Molek and if they fail to put him to death, 5 I myself will set my face against him and his family and will cut them off from their people together with all who follow him in prostituting themselves to Molek.

6 “‘I will set my face against anyone who turns to mediums and spiritists to prostitute themselves by following them, and I will cut them off from their people.
7 “‘Consecrate yourselves and be holy, because I am the Lord your God. 8 Keep my decrees and follow them. I am the Lord, who makes you holy.
9 “‘Anyone who curses their father or mother is to be put to death. Because they have cursed their father or mother, their blood will be on their own head.
10 “‘If a man commits adultery with another man’s wife —with the wife of his neighbor—both the adulterer and the adulteress are to be put to death.
11 “‘If a man has sexual relations with his father’s wife, he has dishonored his father. Both the man and the woman are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.
12 “‘If a man has sexual relations with his daughter-in-law, both of them are to be put to death. What they have done is a perversion; their blood will be on their own heads.

13 “‘If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.

14 “‘If a man marries both a woman and her mother, it is wicked. Both he and they must be burned in the fire, so that no wickedness will be among you.
15 “‘If a man has sexual relations with an animal, he is to be put to death, and you must kill the animal.

16 “‘If a woman approaches an animal to have sexual relations with it, kill both the woman and the animal. They are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.

17 “‘If a man marries his sister , the daughter of either his father or his mother, and they have sexual relations, it is a disgrace. They are to be publicly removed from their people. He has dishonored his sister and will be held responsible.
18 “‘If a man has sexual relations with a woman during her monthly period, he has exposed the source of her flow, and she has also uncovered it. Both of them are to be cut off from their people.
19 “‘Do not have sexual relations with the sister of either your mother or your father, for that would dishonor a close relative; both of you would be held responsible.

20 “‘If a man has sexual relations with his aunt, he has dishonored his uncle. They will be held responsible; they will die childless.
21 “‘If a man marries his brother’s wife, it is an act of impurity; he has dishonored his brother. They will be childless.
22 “‘Keep all my decrees and laws and follow them, so that the land where I am bringing you to live may not vomit you out. 23 You must not live according to the customs of the nations I am going to drive out before you. Because they did all these things, I abhorred them. 24 But I said to you, “You will possess their land; I will give it to you as an inheritance, a land flowing with milk and honey.� I am the Lord your God, who has set you apart from the nations.
25 “‘You must therefore make a distinction between clean and unclean animals and between unclean and clean birds. Do not defile yourselves by any animal or bird or anything that moves along the ground—those that I have set apart as unclean for you. 26 You are to be holy to me because I, the Lord, am holy, and I have set you apart from the nations to be my own.

27 “‘A man or woman who is a medium or spiritist among you must be put to death. You are to stone them; their blood will be on their own heads.’�

Who wrote the Book of Leviticus and when? How were these quotes preserved and maintained for accuracy over thousands of years? Was the author trustworthy, accurate, deluded, bias, indoctrinated, mistaken, misquoted, misunderstood? Was the author reporting what he was told by word of mouth, legend or what?. Was he writing down these incidents as reports of what he witnessed himself or merely reporting what he had heard? Was he making things up or sticking to the facts? How do you know these things?

Moses 1446 to 1406 Jewish tradition archaeological and literary research etc...

[JoeyKnothead]

From Post 49:

Then surely you can present an "eyewitness account" that confirms the veracity of the statement laid out in the OP.

Leviticus 20
New International Version (NIV)

I 'preciate that Rkrause'd present what he considers to be eye-witness testimony. I'm at a complete loss as to how we may confirm the passages to be eyewitness testimony.

But let's have us some fun...

20 The Lord said to Moses...

Why should we believe Moses?

If I said God told me to tell you to send me a million dollars, adjusted for inflation, why ain't I getting rich?

Notice, none of these passages allow us to verify their veracity, all they do is set out the typical bigotry of the day.

When's the last time Rkrause did him some stoning of some of these folks these passages say need them some stoning? If Rkrause has participated in such, one of y'all call the authorities. If he hasn't done him some of this stoning, I contend he's in contradiction of the very "proofs" he presents, and should be disregarded as just another preacher - a preacher who doesn't practice what he preaches, and don't that beat all.

[Goat]

Moses 1446 to 1406 Jewish tradition archaeological and literary research etc...

While legend has it that Moses wrote the Pentateuch, an analysis of the writing show that 4 different people wrote it (at least). Since this is written in third person, it seem rather obvious that you can not show that Moses wrote the claim, so it is not an eye witness report. It's hearsay.

[Clownboat]

Does that mean that you are arguing from a position that the Bible is just as true as the rest of these works? If so, you are being consistent. If not, I would love to know why the Bible is true and the above are not.

Since I have never studied the above I can't make a judgemnet on the truth of them or not. So I would study them as truth until I discover otherwise.

Thank you for your honesty. "I" consider your approach a bit odd, and "I" would suggest a little skepticism in life lest you fall pray to all sorts of things.

Obviously you need to live your life how you see fit and "I" have zero say in the matter of course (having a say in your matter is not my intent, and I'm going to trust that you knew that).

[Rkrause]

From Post 49:

Then surely you can present an "eyewitness account" that confirms the veracity of the statement laid out in the OP.

Leviticus 20
New International Version (NIV)

I 'preciate that Rkrause'd present what he considers to be eye-witness testimony. I'm at a complete loss as to how we may confirm the passages to be eyewitness testimony.

But let's have us some fun...

20 The Lord said to Moses...

Why should we believe Moses?

If I said God told me to tell you to send me a million dollars, adjusted for inflation, why ain't I getting rich?

Notice, none of these passages allow us to verify their veracity, all they do is set out the typical bigotry of the day.

When's the last time Rkrause did him some stoning of some of these folks these passages say need them some stoning? If Rkrause has participated in such, one of y'all call the authorities. If he hasn't done him some of this stoning, I contend he's in contradiction of the very "proofs" he presents, and should be disregarded as just another preacher - a preacher who doesn't practice what he preaches, and don't that beat all.

I am under the New Covenant not the OC also I am not a Jew.

You asked for eye witness proof written in the Bible not what I personal do. Stay on topic please.

[JoeyKnothead]

From Post 55:

I am under the New Covenant not the OC also I am not a Jew.

I'm uncertain about what this has to do with the topic at hand.

You asked for eye witness proof written in the Bible not what I personal do. Stay on topic please.

When you become a moderator, perhaps I'll heed your calls to stay on topic when I challenge the claims you present. As it stands, I asked you why we should believe your source when it attributes stuff to Moses.

So, why should we believe the Bible has accurately recorded Moses' words, and why should we believe Moses in the first place?

Who is this Moses? Do we have his actual writings, or do we have stories passed down through untold generations?

[Goat]

From Post 49:

Then surely you can present an "eyewitness account" that confirms the veracity of the statement laid out in the OP.

Leviticus 20
New International Version (NIV)

I 'preciate that Rkrause'd present what he considers to be eye-witness testimony. I'm at a complete loss as to how we may confirm the passages to be eyewitness testimony.

But let's have us some fun...

20 The Lord said to Moses...

Why should we believe Moses?

If I said God told me to tell you to send me a million dollars, adjusted for inflation, why ain't I getting rich?

Notice, none of these passages allow us to verify their veracity, all they do is set out the typical bigotry of the day.

When's the last time Rkrause did him some stoning of some of these folks these passages say need them some stoning? If Rkrause has participated in such, one of y'all call the authorities. If he hasn't done him some of this stoning, I contend he's in contradiction of the very "proofs" he presents, and should be disregarded as just another preacher - a preacher who doesn't practice what he preaches, and don't that beat all.

I am under the New Covenant not the OC also I am not a Jew.

You asked for eye witness proof written in the Bible not what I personal do. Stay on topic please.

Uh.. you didn't present any eye witnesses.. you presented the claim for an eye witness..

Now, if the story was 'I saw god'.. then, that would allegedly be an eyewitness account. But someone writing 'Moses saw god'. that is hearsay.

[catalyst]

From Post 49:

Then surely you can present an "eyewitness account" that confirms the veracity of the statement laid out in the OP.

Leviticus 20
New International Version (NIV)

I 'preciate that Rkrause'd present what he considers to be eye-witness testimony. I'm at a complete loss as to how we may confirm the passages to be eyewitness testimony.

But let's have us some fun...

20 The Lord said to Moses...

Why should we believe Moses?

If I said God told me to tell you to send me a million dollars, adjusted for inflation, why ain't I getting rich?

Notice, none of these passages allow us to verify their veracity, all they do is set out the typical bigotry of the day.

When's the last time Rkrause did him some stoning of some of these folks these passages say need them some stoning? If Rkrause has participated in such, one of y'all call the authorities. If he hasn't done him some of this stoning, I contend he's in contradiction of the very "proofs" he presents, and should be disregarded as just another preacher - a preacher who doesn't practice what he preaches, and don't that beat all.

I am under the New Covenant not the OC also I am not a Jew.

You asked for eye witness proof written in the Bible not what I personal do. Stay on topic please.

Uh.. you didn't present any eye witnesses.. you presented the claim for an eye witness..

Now, if the story was 'I saw god'.. then, that would allegedly be an eyewitness account. But someone writing 'Moses saw god'. that is hearsay.

If it is even here say. Didn't Ezra RE-write, what Moses had "allegedly" penned some several HUNDREDS of years after the (assumed) "fact", even though what it is Moses allegedly wrote, was burned in a fire so Ezra didn't even get to see it?


If that is the case, then Ezra wrote what he "thought" Moses went through and did and then(supposedly) wrote about it, through oral tradition and not much else.

How far removed from EYE-WITNESS account is THAT!!




Catalyst.