Can the Bible's divine authorship be demonstrated by logic?

McCulloch · Post by **McCulloch** » Sun Aug 12, 2012 5:00 pm

jimvansage wrote: I believe that the following facets of my faith can be demonstrated by logical deduction

2. The Bible is God's Word*

Can the Bible's divine authorship be demonstrated by logical deduction?

jimvansage · Post by **jimvansage** » Mon Aug 27, 2012 8:21 pm

@Nickman - I think that the word I was looking for was dokimazo ("prove" in prove all things) "to recognise as genuine after examination, to approve, deem worthy" Thayer

One quality is foreknowledge, but I'll need to ask you a question first:
When were the Hebrew Scriptures (along with other books) translated in Greek language (the particular translation known as the Septuagint)?

Let's address one quality at a time. (foreknowledge, or more accurately, predictive prophecy) Dating the Septuagint translation may effect our discussion of the other qualities as well.

Nickman · Post by **Nickman** » Mon Aug 27, 2012 9:07 pm

jimvansage wrote: @Nickman - I think that the word I was looking for was dokimazo ("prove" in prove all things) "to recognise as genuine after examination, to approve, deem worthy" Thayer

One quality is foreknowledge, but I'll need to ask you a question first:
When were the Hebrew Scriptures (along with other books) translated in Greek language (the particular translation known as the Septuagint)?

Let's address one quality at a time. (foreknowledge, or more accurately, predictive prophecy) Dating the Septuagint translation may effect our discussion of the other qualities as well.

Shortly after the greeks took over. So what are you claiming as foreknowledge?

jimvansage · Post by **jimvansage** » Mon Aug 27, 2012 9:18 pm

What century was that, at the very least?

Nickman · Post by **Nickman** » Mon Aug 27, 2012 9:25 pm

3rd -1st BCE

jimvansage · Post by **jimvansage** » Mon Aug 27, 2012 9:41 pm

Most agree it was completed before 132 BC...

I'm not denying that the Davidic Psalms were written ca. 1000 B.C. or that Isaiah was written ca. 800 B.C., but it suffices for the sake of proving predictive prophecy that the Septuagint was completed 162 years before the "alleged" crucifixion of Jesus of Nazareth.

After all, if there was a document found to be from 1841 which dated and described the September 11, 2001 attack in NY; one would have to admit that somehow supernaturally foreknowledge was conferred to the author.

So:
If the Old Testament (and other works) were completely translated into Koine greek in 132 BC, then the Old Testament (or Hebrew scriptures) must have been completed before 132 BC.

If the Hebrew Scriptures (OT) contain precise predictive prophecies concerning the crucifixion of Jesus of Nazareth ca. AD 30, then the Hebrew Scriptures owe their origin to some supernatural source (i. e. God).

Voltaire said that if He could be convinced that Isaiah 53 was authentic, he would no longer be an infidel. It was written before 132 B.C.
I'll add Psalm 22 to the list, but that still ignores over 300 "alleged" Messianic prophecies.

As you have already admitted the date of the Septuagint and that the Hebrew Scriptures were written before the LXX's completion, you would either have to deny that Jesus of Nazareth was crucified ca. AD 30 or adequately demonstrate that those prophecies do not refer to Jesus of Nazareth.

Nickman · Post by **Nickman** » Mon Aug 27, 2012 10:04 pm

jimvansage wrote: Most agree it was completed before 132 BC...

I'm not denying that the Davidic Psalms were written ca. 1000 B.C. or that Isaiah was written ca. 800 B.C., but it suffices for the sake of proving predictive prophecy that the Septuagint was completed 162 years before the "alleged" crucifixion of Jesus of Nazareth.

After all, if there was a document found to be from 1841 which dated and described the September 11, 2001 attack in NY; one would have to admit that somehow supernaturally foreknowledge was conferred to the author.

So:
If the Old Testament (and other works) were completely translated into Koine greek in 132 BC, then the Old Testament (or Hebrew scriptures) must have been completed before 132 BC.

If the Hebrew Scriptures (OT) contain precise predictive prophecies concerning the crucifixion of Jesus of Nazareth ca. AD 30, then the Hebrew Scriptures owe their origin to some supernatural source (i. e. God).

Voltaire said that if He could be convinced that Isaiah 53 was authentic, he would no longer be an infidel. It was written before 132 B.C.
I'll add Psalm 22 to the list, but that still ignores over 300 "alleged" Messianic prophecies.

As you have already admitted the date of the Septuagint and that the Hebrew Scriptures were written before the LXX's completion, you would either have to deny that Jesus of Nazareth was crucified ca. AD 30 or adequately demonstrate that those prophecies do not refer to Jesus of Nazareth.

There are two things you will have to do. First you will have to provide a prophecy, and show that theprophecy speaks of the messiah, and second you will have to show that jesus was actually real and on top that he actually did what you say he did i.e. prove that the gospels are factual and writtenby credible witnesses. And this cannot be done in any way.

Nickman · Post by **Nickman** » Mon Aug 27, 2012 10:07 pm

To add, I don't have to prove anything. Im not the one claiming that the bible is divinely inspired or the like.

Furrowed Brow · Post by **Furrowed Brow** » Tue Aug 28, 2012 7:25 am

jimvansage wrote: Weigh them? - what if one box contained a deed to a large stretch of land in the Bahamas?

If the difference in weight is negligible then it is possible to rule out many things like for instance we can drawn the conclusion no box contains a bar of gold bullion. But sure lets say a box contains a molecule of a deadly virus. We will only know if we can open the box.

Or suppose the "boxes" are like storage lockers or PO Boxes which cannot be measured. They are lead boxes, so no known method of science thus far can examine what is inside.

Well the box could always be melted. If the melting process gave off too much hyrdrogen and oxygen for instance we might conclude the box contained water. If the box contained a piece of paper and it was not the paper but what was written on it that was important then we find a way to open the box that does not destroy the contents.

If the box is impossible to open, or any way of opening the box destroys the contents, talk of what is in the box is meaningless. For instance the virus stops being deadly because no one will ever be infected. Likewise the deeds to the land in the Bahamas will have zero legal significance if they can never be produced in court. Under such circumtances talk of what was in the box becomes meaningless.

Is it safe to assume they are empty, that they contain contents, or it is impossible to know one way or the other?

If we cannot get access then it is safe to assume the boxes are empty in equal degree to which the boxes cannot be opened and we are safe from finding out.

kayky · Post by **kayky** » Tue Aug 28, 2012 2:14 pm

The trouble with Jim's argument is that it doesn't matter when the messiah prophesies were written. The Gospels were written long after the death of Jesus, and the authors deliberately tied Jesus to these prophecies in the Old Testament. Not to tell a lie. But to present the central character of their narratives as one annointed by God.

jimvansage · Post by **jimvansage** » Tue Aug 28, 2012 3:53 pm

But even the timing of the Gospel accounts' depiction of Jesus is astonishing given the "seventy weeks" prophecy of Daniel (Daniel 9:24 - 70 weeks being equal to 490 years)
If Jesus was crucified on the Passover eve of AD 30, that's 487.5 years after Israel's return from Babylon (in the "midst of the final week" 9:27, leaving 3.5 years to fulfill the 490 year period).

When the Gospels were written is subject to debate (most say they were written after AD 70 because Mark and Matthew mention the destruction of Jerusalem, but the underlying assumption is that there is no such thing as supernatural foreknowledge/predictive prophecy), but some of the events recorded in history (Gospel or otherwise) corroborate some claims.