Can the Laws of Nature be temporarily altered or suspended

[ytrewq]

Modern science is based on the assumption that the so-called Laws of Nature are fixed, and that temporary and/or localized variations or suspensions do not occur.

A supernatural event may be defined as one that could only occur if the Laws of Nature were temporarily altered or suspended, so the question being asked is essentially the same as whether supernatural events can occur.

Here are some examples of supernatural events under this definition.

(a) You are holding a heavy (10kg) stone. Suddenly you feel the stone become lighter, then weightless, then it starts pulling upwards. In surprise, you let go, and the stone falls upwards, away from the earth rather than towards it, and accelerates upwards into the sky and out of sight. In scientific terms, the Law of Gravitational Attraction has been temporarily altered (reversed) for this stone. Is this possible?

(b) A massive (3000kg, or 3 ton) tree branch has fallen on your child. Although the main weight has been taken on the ground, your child is nonetheless pinned between the branch and the ground, and screaming out that they cannot breath. You attempt to lift the branch, but it weighs 3000kg, so you cannot lift it, but of course you try anyway. Only a supernatural event can help you and save the life of your child. The Law of Gravity could be temporarily altered, so just for a few seconds, the branch weighed only 50kg. Is this possible? Alternatively, you could temporarily acquire superhuman strength, and for a few seconds be able to lift the 3000kg, which would normally snap your tendons or bones. Is this possible?

(c) Your mobile phone stops working, but there is nothing whatsoever physically wrong with it. Instead, one of the Laws of Physics that make computers work become temporarily altered or suspended such that your computer stops working. Is this possible?

All of the $100 notes in your wallet sponaneously change into $10 notes, or your gold ingot spontaneously changes into a steel ingot, etc. Is this possible?

In my opinion, the answer to all these questions must surely be NO. As far as science is concerend the answer most certainly is NO, for all of the scientific knowledge gained over the past 200 years depends on fundamental Laws of nature being stable and reproducible, at different times and in different locations. It would be either a brave or foolish person that would dismiss the past 200 years of scientific knowledge with a wave of the hand.

However, regardless of what science says, through human experience, the very society in which we live has de-facto already answered answered NO to questions of this type. For example, our legal system will not (and could not possibly) allow or dispute evidence on the basis of a supernatural event having occured. Society would simply disintegrate into chaos if we had to seriously entertain the possibility of all potential supernatural events. Futhermore, almost every modern machine from cars to phones to computers simply could not work unless the underlying physical Laws were totally rock solid and reliable. Imagine taking your brand new malfunctioning computer back to the store, only to be told 'I'm terribly sorry sir, but there is nothing physically wrong with your computer. Unfortunately for you, the Laws of Nature upon which it relies for it's operation are unstable. Although unusual, this can happen.' Of course, nobody believes this. Do you?

There is, of course, a temptation to make 'exceptions' for the suspension or alteration of the Laws of Nature, when doing so makes possible an event that you wish to believe is possible. This is really just hypocrisy and wishful thinking. If your pet beliefs are entitled to such an exception, then of course so are mine, and so are everone else's, including the pet beliefs of every crackpot under the sun. Logical debate ceases altogether. Unless we can find evidence to the contrary, and none has ever been found, then (perhaps unfortunately) we need to accept that the Laws of Nature cannot be suspended or altered just because we would like it to be so, and get on with life.

[ytrewq]

Hi Mithrae,

Firstly, thanks for your thoughtful reply in your Post #40. Later I would like to discuss some of the points you raised there, yet I wonder if you could directly and unambiguously answer the specific question in bold that I asked in the original posting. Here it is again, slightly re-worded, and I invite others to answer these same questions:

Modern science is based on the assumption that the so-called Laws of Nature are fixed, and that temporary and/or localized variations or suspensions do not occur.

Here are some examples of events that would require extremely-well-established Laws of Nature or properties of matter to be temporarily suspended or altered.

(a) You are holding a heavy (10kg) stone. Suddenly you feel the stone become lighter, then weightless, then it starts pulling upwards. In surprise, you let go, and the stone falls upwards, away from the earth rather than towards it, and accelerates upwards into the sky and out of sight. In scientific terms, the Law of Gravitational Attraction has been temporarily altered (reversed) for this stone. Is this possible?

(b) A massive (3000kg, or 3 ton) tree branch has fallen on your child. Although the main weight has been taken on the ground, your child is nonetheless pinned between the branch and the ground, and screaming out that they cannot breath. You attempt to lift the branch, but it weighs 3000kg, so you cannot lift it, but of course you try anyway. Only a supernatural event can help you and save the life of your child. The Law of Gravity could be temporarily altered, so just for a few seconds, the branch weighed only 50kg. Is this possible? Alternatively, you could temporarily acquire superhuman strength, and for a few seconds be able to lift the 3000kg, which would normally snap your tendons or bones. Is this possible?

(c) Your computer phone stops working, but there is nothing whatsoever physically wrong with it. Instead, one of the Laws of Physics that make computers work become temporarily altered or suspended such that your computer stops working. Is this possible?

(d) All of the $10 notes in your wallet sponaneously change into $100 notes, or your gold ingot spontaneously changes into a steel ingot, etc. Is this possible?

(e) Joes down the road claims that (pure) water on his stove boils at 150 DegC, in an open pot at normal atmospheric pressure. Is this possible?

(f) You return home one day, after leaving that morning, to find your house has inexplicably disappeared, and has been replaced with another. Is this possible?

Correct me if I am wrong, but these are not 'trick' questions in any way. Either you believe that these specific examples of fundamental Laws of nature being bent are posssible, or you don't. Scientists unanbiguously believe that these particular examples are impossible, with a certainty equal to the certainty that we can ever have in anything at all. I am not interested in philosophical BS arguments of the type 'Well actually, NOTHING is certain ...', and I'm sure you are smarter than to engage is meaningless 'debate' of that type.

Note that these question have nothing whatsoever to do with religion per se. Nowhere have I mentioned Gods or religion in this posting.

If you answer YES to any of these specific questions (and they were carefully chosen), then you must accept that you have discarded all modern scientific method and knowledge.

PS. Thanks to Sailing Cyclops, who did answer these questions.

[Mithrae]

Correct me if I am wrong, but these are not 'trick' querstions in any way. Either you believe that these specific examples of fundamental Laws of nature being bent are posssible, or you don't. Scientists unanbiguously believe that these particular examples are impossible, with a certainty equal to the certainty that we can ever have in anything at all.

Could you provide a credible source for this claim?

I notice that in A, B and C you have carefully specified that the Laws of Nature must have been temporarily altered. Carefully ruling out any alternative explanations (most obviously in the case of a computer not working), you assume that the Laws of Nature constrain how things behave, and that in these examples they must have been temporarily suspended.

Even so, I am extremely dubious that any scientist would say "with a certainty equal to the certainty that we can ever have in anything at all" that a house cannot be replaced in a 12-hour period (example F).

Please provide a credible source for this claim, or for any of the others.


Edit: "Is this possible?" I don't know. Probably.

[ytrewq]

Correct me if I am wrong, but these are not 'trick' querstions in any way. Either you believe that these specific examples of fundamental Laws of nature being bent are posssible, or you don't. Scientists unanbiguously believe that these particular examples are impossible, with a certainty equal to the certainty that we can ever have in anything at all.

Could you provide a credible source for this claim?

I notice that in A, B and C you have carefully specified that the Laws of Nature must have been temporarily altered. Carefully ruling out any alternative explanations (most obviously in the case of a computer not working), you assume that the Laws of Nature constrain how things behave, and that in these examples they must have been temporarily suspended.

Even so, I am extremely dubious that any scientist would say "with a certainty equal to the certainty that we can ever have in anything at all" that a house cannot be replaced in a 12-hour period (example F).

Please provide a credible source for this claim, or for any of the others.

I believe you when you say you are "not interested in philosophical BS arguments."
I'm not interested BS.

An yet, still you have not answered my questions.

I apologize for not making it clear in example F that I was referring to the case where it was not humans that had not knocked down your house and replaced it with another, for that would not be 'inexplicable', now would it? Of course, I am talking in this example of a miracle of the most miraculous and inexplicable kind, completely contrary to all experience, common sense and scientific knowledge, where your house spontaneously and by unknown means turns into a different house when you were not looking. Of course, you know perfectly well (or at least I hope you do) that that is impossible, so why not simply say so?

Please answer my questions.

If you think that scientists believe (for example) that the Law of gravitation can temporarily become reversed in sign for a particular 10kg object, then you are ultimately welcome to that opinion, of course, but I did not ask for your opinion re what scientists think, I asked you what YOU think.

This is a debate forum. I asked simple, straightforward Yes/No questions, and you have so far declined to answer them. Please do so. As the OP, or even if I wasn't, am I being unreasonable?

[Mithrae]

If you think that scientists believe (for example) that the Law of gravitation can temporarily become reversed in sign for a particular 10kg object, then you are ultimately welcome to that opinion, of course, but I did not ask for your opinion re what scientists think, I asked you what YOU think.

I can only make vaguely-educated guesses what scientists believe. You are the one who made a claim about what scientists "unanbiguously believe," and now choose not to substantiate.

This is a debate forum. I asked simple, straightforward Yes/No questions, and you have so far declined to answer them. Please do so. As the OP, or even if I wasn't, am I being unreasonable?

This is a debate forum, and you are making unsubstantiated claims upon which you are attempting to build a false dichotomy of either "discarding all modern scientific method and knowledge" or affirming constraints on possibility which I couldn't possibly know.

Do you know the answer? How do you know it?

[ytrewq]

If you think that scientists believe (for example) that the Law of gravitation can temporarily become reversed in sign for a particular 10kg object, then you are ultimately welcome to that opinion, of course, but I did not ask for your opinion re what scientists think, I asked you what YOU think.

I can only make vaguely-educated guesses what scientists believe. You are the one who made a claim about what scientists "unanbiguously believe," and now choose not to substantiate.

This is a debate forum. I asked simple, straightforward Yes/No questions, and you have so far declined to answer them. Please do so. As the OP, or even if I wasn't, am I being unreasonable?

This is a debate forum, and you are making unsubstantiated claims upon which you are attempting to build a false dichotomy of either "discarding all modern scientific method and knowledge" or affirming constraints on possibility which I couldn't possibly know.

Do you know the answer? How do you know it?

I detect an extreme reluctance to answer my original questions.

Let's keep things really simple then, with the single, simple question below :-

You are holding a heavy (10kg) stone. Suddenly you feel the stone become lighter, then weightless, then it starts pulling upwards. In surprise, you let go, and the stone falls upwards, away from the earth rather than towards it, and accelerates upwards into the sky and out of sight. There is no 'strong upwards wind' or 'piece of string attached to the stone', or anything of that nature in this example, as I think you understand.
Do you believe this is possible?

There is no reference here to science or scientists at all. I happen to know a respectable amount about science and scientists, and am happy to talk further about that aspect with you later, but for now I simply ask for an answer to the above question.

In your opinion, can an object temporarily fall upwards (away from the Earth), in contradiction to the universal observation that objects fall 'downwards', towards the earth. In scientific terms that means that gravity has become reversed (repulsive rather than attractive), but you don't need to know that to answer the question.

[Mithrae]

I detect an extreme reluctance to answer my original questions.

Let's keep things really simple then, with the single, simple question below :-

You are holding a heavy (10kg) stone. Suddenly you feel the stone become lighter, then weightless, then it starts pulling upwards. In surprise, you let go, and the stone falls upwards, away from the earth rather than towards it, and accelerates upwards into the sky and out of sight. There is no 'strong upwards wind' or 'piece of string attached to the stone', or anything of that nature in this example, as I think you understand.
Do you believe this is possible?

I answered your question in post 52. Half an hour later, you quoted text which I estimate was there no more than 5-10 minutes after the initial posting. I've been known to spend over an hour on a short post myself. But I'm surprised that you still think I haven't answered your question.

I explicitly stated in my most recent post that I cannot know any such constraints on what is possible, and in my original post of the thread I clearly explained my reasoning for supposing that extremely unusual (ie 'supernatural') events are a possibility.

"Is this possible?" I don't know. Probably.

What part of that are you having trouble understanding?

Now could you please answer my questions:
> Do you know the answer? How do you know it?
> Could you provide a credible source for this claim [that "Scientists unanbiguously believe that these particular examples are impossible, with a certainty equal to the certainty that we can ever have in anything at all"]?

Even though I'm not the OP, I'm not being unreasonable here am I?

[ytrewq]

I detect an extreme reluctance to answer my original questions.

Let's keep things really simple then, with the single, simple question below :-

You are holding a heavy (10kg) stone. Suddenly you feel the stone become lighter, then weightless, then it starts pulling upwards. In surprise, you let go, and the stone falls upwards, away from the earth rather than towards it, and accelerates upwards into the sky and out of sight. There is no 'strong upwards wind' or 'piece of string attached to the stone', or anything of that nature in this example, as I think you understand.
Do you believe this is possible?

I answered your question in post 52. Half an hour later, you quoted text which I estimate was there no more than 5-10 minutes after the initial posting. I've been known to spend over an hour on a short post myself. But I'm surprised that you still think I haven't answered your question.

I explicitly stated in my most recent post that I cannot know any such constraints on what is possible, and in my original post of the thread I clearly explained my reasoning for supposing that extremely unusual (ie 'supernatural') events are a possibility.

"Is this possible?" I don't know. Probably.

What part of that are you having trouble understanding?

Here is what you actually said in your post #52

Even so, I am extremely dubious that any scientist would say "with a certainty equal to the certainty that we can ever have in anything at all" that a house cannot be replaced in a 12-hour period (example F).

Please provide a credible source for this claim, or for any of the others.

Edit: "Is this possible?" I don't know. Probably.

I (not unreasonably) thought that that your statement I don't know. Probably was referring to the possibility that a house could be demolished and rebuilt as a different house in a 12 hour period.

However, in fact you had apparently used the word this (singular) to answer all of the seven specific questions that I asked. That was sloppy on your part, but I thank you for now making your position clear.

My next posting will summarize your present position, because I do not think it fair to misrepresent you.

[GADARENE]

Modern science is based on the assumption that the so-called Laws of Nature are fixed, and that temporary and/or localized variations or suspensions do not occur.

A supernatural event may be defined as one that could only occur if the Laws of Nature were temporarily altered or suspended, so the question being asked is essentially the same as whether supernatural events can occur.

Here are some examples of supernatural events under this definition.

(a) You are holding a heavy (10kg) stone. Suddenly you feel the stone become lighter, then weightless, then it starts pulling upwards. In surprise, you let go, and the stone falls upwards, away from the earth rather than towards it, and accelerates upwards into the sky and out of sight. In scientific terms, the Law of Gravitational Attraction has been temporarily altered (reversed) for this stone. Is this possible?

(b) A massive (3000kg, or 3 ton) tree branch has fallen on your child. Although the main weight has been taken on the ground, your child is nonetheless pinned between the branch and the ground, and screaming out that they cannot breath. You attempt to lift the branch, but it weighs 3000kg, so you cannot lift it, but of course you try anyway. Only a supernatural event can help you and save the life of your child. The Law of Gravity could be temporarily altered, so just for a few seconds, the branch weighed only 50kg. Is this possible? Alternatively, you could temporarily acquire superhuman strength, and for a few seconds be able to lift the 3000kg, which would normally snap your tendons or bones. Is this possible?

(c) Your mobile phone stops working, but there is nothing whatsoever physically wrong with it. Instead, one of the Laws of Physics that make computers work become temporarily altered or suspended such that your computer stops working. Is this possible?

All of the $100 notes in your wallet sponaneously change into $10 notes, or your gold ingot spontaneously changes into a steel ingot, etc. Is this possible?

In my opinion, the answer to all these questions must surely be NO. As far as science is concerend the answer most certainly is NO, for all of the scientific knowledge gained over the past 200 years depends on fundamental Laws of nature being stable and reproducible, at different times and in different locations. It would be either a brave or foolish person that would dismiss the past 200 years of scientific knowledge with a wave of the hand.

However, regardless of what science says, through human experience, the very society in which we live has de-facto already answered answered NO to questions of this type. For example, our legal system will not (and could not possibly) allow or dispute evidence on the basis of a supernatural event having occured. Society would simply disintegrate into chaos if we had to seriously entertain the possibility of all potential supernatural events. Futhermore, almost every modern machine from cars to phones to computers simply could not work unless the underlying physical Laws were totally rock solid and reliable. Imagine taking your brand new malfunctioning computer back to the store, only to be told 'I'm terribly sorry sir, but there is nothing physically wrong with your computer. Unfortunately for you, the Laws of Nature upon which it relies for it's operation are unstable. Although unusual, this can happen.' Of course, nobody believes this. Do you?

There is, of course, a temptation to make 'exceptions' for the suspension or alteration of the Laws of Nature, when doing so makes possible an event that you wish to believe is possible. This is really just hypocrisy and wishful thinking. If your pet beliefs are entitled to such an exception, then of course so are mine, and so are everone else's, including the pet beliefs of every crackpot under the sun. Logical debate ceases altogether. Unless we can find evidence to the contrary, and none has ever been found, then (perhaps unfortunately) we need to accept that the Laws of Nature cannot be suspended or altered just because we would like it to be so, and get on with life.

honey, your argument is old, worn out and so easily disputed you must be embarrassed for trying this hokey nonsense on such an elite forum with so many talented scientists participating. for every brilliant scientist will gladly tell you that if there is a god, god could yawn and suspend/alter his own god made laws.

[ytrewq]

(a) You are holding a heavy (10kg) stone. Suddenly you feel the stone become lighter, then weightless, then it starts pulling upwards. In surprise, you let go, and the stone falls upwards, away from the earth rather than towards it, and accelerates upwards into the sky and out of sight. In scientific terms, the Law of Gravitational Attraction has been temporarily altered (reversed) for this stone. Is this possible?

(b) A massive (3000kg, or 3 ton) tree branch has fallen on your child. Although the main weight has been taken on the ground, your child is nonetheless pinned between the branch and the ground, and screaming out that they cannot breath. You attempt to lift the branch, but it weighs 3000kg, so you cannot lift it, but of course you try anyway. Only a supernatural event can help you and save the life of your child. The Law of Gravity could be temporarily altered, so just for a few seconds, the branch weighed only 50kg. Is this possible? Alternatively, you could temporarily acquire superhuman strength, and for a few seconds be able to lift the 3000kg, which would normally snap your tendons or bones. Is this possible?

(c) Is it possible for a computer to stop working, not because there is anything physically wrong with it, but because the Laws of nature that make a computer work have become temporarily altered or suspended?

(d) Is it possible for all of the $10 notes in your wallet sponaneously change into $100 notes, or your gold ingot spontaneously changes into a steel ingot, etc?

(e) Is it possible for pure water to boil at 150 DegC, in an open pot at normal atmospheric pressure.

(f) Is it possible that your your house spontaneously and by unknown means turns into a different house when you are not looking.

When asked if these events are possible, Mithrae's answer is :

I don't know. Probably.

In other words, Mithrae is unsure as to whether these events are possible, but he thinks they probably are possible.

'Probably' means 'more likely than not', so Mithrae thinks that it is more likely than not that the above events are possible.

More than that, Mithrae disputes my claim that the above events are in contradiction with very-well-established scientific principles and Laws, and/or with very-well-established properties of matter. For myself, I would be quite comfortable leaving the debate at that and leaving others to judge for themselves. However, in fairness to Mithrae's request, I will address the (very basic) science in a subsequent posting.

[ytrewq]

Modern science is based on the assumption that the so-called Laws of Nature are fixed, and that temporary and/or localized variations or suspensions do not occur.

A supernatural event may be defined as one that could only occur if the Laws of Nature were temporarily altered or suspended, so the question being asked is essentially the same as whether supernatural events can occur.

Here are some examples of supernatural events under this definition.

(a) You are holding a heavy (10kg) stone. Suddenly you feel the stone become lighter, then weightless, then it starts pulling upwards. In surprise, you let go, and the stone falls upwards, away from the earth rather than towards it, and accelerates upwards into the sky and out of sight. In scientific terms, the Law of Gravitational Attraction has been temporarily altered (reversed) for this stone. Is this possible?

(b) A massive (3000kg, or 3 ton) tree branch has fallen on your child. Although the main weight has been taken on the ground, your child is nonetheless pinned between the branch and the ground, and screaming out that they cannot breath. You attempt to lift the branch, but it weighs 3000kg, so you cannot lift it, but of course you try anyway. Only a supernatural event can help you and save the life of your child. The Law of Gravity could be temporarily altered, so just for a few seconds, the branch weighed only 50kg. Is this possible? Alternatively, you could temporarily acquire superhuman strength, and for a few seconds be able to lift the 3000kg, which would normally snap your tendons or bones. Is this possible?

(c) Your mobile phone stops working, but there is nothing whatsoever physically wrong with it. Instead, one of the Laws of Physics that make computers work become temporarily altered or suspended such that your computer stops working. Is this possible?

All of the $100 notes in your wallet sponaneously change into $10 notes, or your gold ingot spontaneously changes into a steel ingot, etc. Is this possible?

In my opinion, the answer to all these questions must surely be NO. As far as science is concerend the answer most certainly is NO, for all of the scientific knowledge gained over the past 200 years depends on fundamental Laws of nature being stable and reproducible, at different times and in different locations. It would be either a brave or foolish person that would dismiss the past 200 years of scientific knowledge with a wave of the hand.

However, regardless of what science says, through human experience, the very society in which we live has de-facto already answered answered NO to questions of this type. For example, our legal system will not (and could not possibly) allow or dispute evidence on the basis of a supernatural event having occured. Society would simply disintegrate into chaos if we had to seriously entertain the possibility of all potential supernatural events. Futhermore, almost every modern machine from cars to phones to computers simply could not work unless the underlying physical Laws were totally rock solid and reliable. Imagine taking your brand new malfunctioning computer back to the store, only to be told 'I'm terribly sorry sir, but there is nothing physically wrong with your computer. Unfortunately for you, the Laws of Nature upon which it relies for it's operation are unstable. Although unusual, this can happen.' Of course, nobody believes this. Do you?

There is, of course, a temptation to make 'exceptions' for the suspension or alteration of the Laws of Nature, when doing so makes possible an event that you wish to believe is possible. This is really just hypocrisy and wishful thinking. If your pet beliefs are entitled to such an exception, then of course so are mine, and so are everone else's, including the pet beliefs of every crackpot under the sun. Logical debate ceases altogether. Unless we can find evidence to the contrary, and none has ever been found, then (perhaps unfortunately) we need to accept that the Laws of Nature cannot be suspended or altered just because we would like it to be so, and get on with life.

honey, your argument is old, worn out and so easily disputed you must be embarrassed for trying this hokey nonsense on such an elite forum with so many talented scientists participating. for every brilliant scientist will gladly tell you that if there is a god, god could yawn and suspend/alter his own god made laws.

Presumably you answer a resounding YES to all these questions. Thank you.

By the way, scientists specifically do NOT believe it is possible for water to boil at 150 DegC at standard atmospheric pressure, or for the Law of Gravitation to become reversed, or that objects such as money, gold bars, or houses can spontaneously transmutate, which is why none of the scientists on this forum have chimed in to agree with you.

However, you have made it clear that you personally believe the events I described are possible. That is your right. Again, thank you. At least you have the courage to tell us what you believe, whereas a good many theists simply refuse to contemplate or answer questions of this type.