The foundations of Christianity

[Elijah John]

It seems to me that the whole foundation of what we know as Trinitarian Christianity
is built on a literal reading of the "fall of man" as told in the Genesis tale of the Garden of Eden and Adam and Eve eating a "forbidden fruit".

And also on the supposed "vision" of self-appointed "apostle" Paul.

And the theological speculations of the poet and mystic evangelist "John", and folks who take John's speculations and poetry literally.

Seems the whole of what we know as "Christianity" today is derived mainly from these three things, and very little from (what little we know of) the actual teachings of Jesus ie the Golden Rule and the Lord's prayer.

Evidence of this assertion? The Creeds, the Apostle's Creed and the Nicean Creed. They have been called "hollow creeds" by some scholars, meaning they have no center. They begin with Jesus supposed miraculous birth, and end with the supposed meaning of his crucifixion and resurrection.

NOTHING in Creeds about Jesus life or teachings.

Is it any WONDER that literalists will make such statements as "Christianity is not about morality?"

Anyway, the question for debate is this, do you think the myth of Eden, Paul's vision and John's theological speculations are a solid or a shaky foundation for one of the worlds major religions?

[nothead]

Not all my "tirades" are as long as the one's that I have posted to Realworldjack. I can keep them short as well. I don;t think that empirical data is the means to my salvation however, since I have nothing to be saved FROM. Except possibly your imagination. Please save me from that.

How about annhilation? My agnostic father and many others I knew just FIGURED this would happen...what about you?

P.S. it doesn't have to. Just donate to nothead's permanent dividend fund. You COULD be saved never can tell...

You are nowhere and have nothing to offer the purveyors of Truth in religion or philosophy. You are only where the naysayer can end up. Nay to God and nay to a Superior Creator or Intelligence. YOUR intelligence is sufficient for you.

It's true that I don't talk to invisible friends, if that is what you are getting at.

See I know the proud worship the grey matter in their own head. Your best friend, all shades of grey too in thine own grey matter....

Fry it up, make country fried steaks. Might taste good too, never can tell....

What is the scrupulosity of a plethora of data which goes nowhere but your posts? You are so meticulous we know you to be obsessive about this. Thus the propensity for words strung along with more words. All meaning what, to doubt the supernatural in our lives? Whoo hoo.

Banality and anality. Obsessive compulsion, yes.

Ummm... what?

Obsessive Compulsive Disorder, originally called 'anal retentiveness...'

Like holding in your poo. Early psychologists made a connection. I remember doing it, in Scout Camp. Afraid irrationally of the latrine there, and the associative bugs and oddball entities of my own imagination....

Scientists know nothing of the workings of God. This is an altogether different field of study. What else can you offer us?

Well, how about I offer to you that computer you are sitting at. When you choose to personally shun the use of the fruits of scientific investigation, the science that you disparage, then we can talk. Of course you won't be able to talk to us on this forum any longer. Or on your cell phone. They do seem to work don't they? How do those stupid know nothing scientists manage to pull that off anyway. Must be God's Will. Because you know He works in mysterious ways.

Oooo. My salvation, my computer. I KNEW she could save me...and that she was a she too. Breasts succulent, lips like a rose....em sorry, Knothead Joey must be a bad influence...

Religious obsessions are bad, yeah hum. I worship my own rational constructions, em. They are the buildings of the new regime, yes.

Viva la revolucion! May the mental paradigms of all scientists rule!
Atom bombs unite!

WHAT?

Oh BE that way dear, I know you know what I know you think you know is that know one knows how a flower grows...you flower you.

So I believe the testimonies of those who loved him. Sue me. For being obsessive, worshiper of thine own mind...

Apparently none of the individuals who knew him thought enough of him to write about him. All we have are stories written many years later by unknown authors.

Maybe they propogated an oral tradition. Never can tell, but it is possible.

Morality is about treating others they way you would want others to treat you. No religion is required to understand and practice this obvious truth.

I doubt you got this from your mind. Since it was in Leviticus before you were born

Neither the Christians or the Jews own exclusive rights to "The Golden Rule." It is a concept that is as old as civilized society.

All you are saying is that some reason as in REASON is universal. The REASON or logos of YHWH Elohim.

****
Golden Rule
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Rushworth Kidder notes that the Golden Rule can be found in the early contributions of Confucianism (551–479 BC). Kidder notes that this concept's framework appears prominently in many religions, including "Hinduism, Buddhism, Taoism, Zoroastrianism, and the rest of the world's major religions".[7] According to Greg M. Epstein, " 'do unto others' ... is a concept that essentially no religion misses entirely."[8] Simon Blackburn also states that the Golden Rule can be "found in some form in almost every ethical tradition".[9] All versions and forms of the proverbial Golden Rule have one aspect in common: they all demand that people treat others in a manner in which they themselves would like to be treated.

Ancient Egypt
An early example of the Golden Rule that reflects the Ancient Egyptian concept of Maat appears in the story of The Eloquent Peasant, which dates to the Middle Kingdom (c. 2040–1650 BC): "Now this is the command: Do to the doer to cause that he do thus to you."[16][discuss] An example from a Late Period (c. 664 BC – 323 BC) papyrus: "That which you hate to be done to you, do not do to another."[17]

The Golden Rule in its prohibitive form was a common principle in ancient Greek philosophy. Examples of the general concept include:
"Do not do to your neighbor what you would take ill from him." – Pittacus[18] (c. 640 – 568 BC)
"Avoid doing what you would blame others for doing." – Thales[19] (c. 624 BC – c. 546 BC)
"What you do not want to happen to you, do not do it yourself either. " – Sextus the Pythagorean.[20] The oldest extant reference to Sextus is by Origen in the third century of the common era.[21]
"Do not do to others that which angers you when they do it to you." – Isocrates[22](436–338 BC)
"What thou avoidest suffering thyself seek not to impose on others." – Epictetus[23]
"It is impossible to live a pleasant life without living wisely and well and justly (agreeing 'neither to harm nor be harmed'), and it is impossible to live wisely and well and justly without living a pleasant life." – Epicurus[25]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Rule
****

So you mention OTHER religions which you ALSO don't believe in, yep. Makes sense. All I said is that it could not have been invented by you. I don't claim my knowledge is only known by me. You on the other hand think your thinking don't stink.

You and the boat it came in on. All is dross. My boat contains all good from all religion, especially the Abrahamic ones which come closer to Truth.

[Tired of the Nonsense]

[Replying to nothead]

How about annhilation? My agnostic father and many others I knew just FIGURED this would happen...what about you?

P.S. it doesn't have to. Just donate to nothead's permanent dividend fund. You COULD be saved never can tell...

If by "annhilation" you are talking about death, I hope I won't be ruining your whole day by breaking this bad news to you...EVERYONE DIES! Make believe and your imaginary invisible friends can't alter the fact that everyone dies. Sorry.

See I know the proud worship the grey matter in their own head. Your best friend, all shades of grey too in thine own grey matter....

Fry it up, make country fried steaks. Might taste good too, never can tell....

I am an atheist, and we don't worship much of anything.

Obsessive Compulsive Disorder, originally called 'anal retentiveness...'

Like holding in your poo. Early psychologists made a connection. I remember doing it, in Scout Camp. Afraid irrationally of the latrine there, and the associative bugs and oddball entities of my own imagination....

I'm just a regular guy whose mother taught him at an early age to carefully use the tp. I'm sorry if your own training was a little bit irregular and, ummm... holding stuff was involved. Remind me never to shake hands with you should I meet you.

Oooo. My salvation, my computer. I KNEW she could save me...and that she was a she too. Breasts succulent, lips like a rose....em sorry, Knothead Joey must be a bad influence...

Joey is a rapscallion, that is true.

Oh BE that way dear, I know you know what I know you think you know is that know one knows how a flower grows...you flower you.

WHAT!

Maybe they propogated an oral tradition. Never can tell, but it is possible.

You said oral. But this is usually exactly how baseless rumors are spread, isn't it. What do I mean by "baseless?" Well, stories of hoards of dead people coming up out of their graves and wandering the streets, and a corpse that comes back to life and flies away for example. You know, tall tales and make believe. Your basic encounter-it-everyday bull snot.

So you mention OTHER religions which you ALSO don't believe in, yep. Makes sense. All I said is that it could not have been invented by you. I don't claim my knowledge is only known by me. You on the other hand think your thinking don't stink.

If humans are going to live together in cooperative societies then following the Golden Rule is the obvious way to make that work and it doesn't really take a genius or a divine Being to figure that out.

[nothead]

If by "annhilation" you are talking about death, I hope I won't be ruining your whole day by breaking this bad news to you...EVERYONE DIES! Make believe and your imaginary invisible friends can't alter the fact that everyone dies. Sorry.

Hey that was previously what I said to YOU, dear. What I was getting at, science can't stop it, religion MAYBE can. You say not, I say why not?

See I know the proud worship the grey matter in their own head. Your best friend, all shades of grey too in thine own grey matter....

Fry it up, make country fried steaks. Might taste good too, never can tell....

I am an atheist, and we don't worship much of anything.

Bob Dylan says everybody serves some one. He was at one time smarter than you.

Obsessive Compulsive Disorder, originally called 'anal retentiveness...'

Like holding in your poo. Early psychologists made a connection. I remember doing it, in Scout Camp. Afraid irrationally of the latrine there, and the associative bugs and oddball entities of my own imagination....

I'm just a regular guy whose mother taught him at an early age to carefully use the tp. I'm sorry if your own training was a little bit irregular and, ummm... holding stuff was involved. Remind me never to shake hands with you should I meet you.

Well, I got over it. Us old guys do appreciate a good bowel movement which comes once in a while...which site am I on however...

Oooo. My salvation, my computer. I KNEW she could save me...and that she was a she too. Breasts succulent, lips like a rose....em sorry, Knothead Joey must be a bad influence...

Joey is a rapscallion, that is true.

And nuts oriented.

Maybe they propogated an oral tradition. Never can tell, but it is possible.

You said oral. But this is usually exactly how baseless rumors are spread, isn't it. What do I mean by "baseless?" Well, stories of hoards of dead people coming up out of their graves and wandering the streets, and a corpse that comes back to life and flies away for example. You know, tall tales and make believe. Your basic encounter-it-everyday bull snot.

They were trained not to lie, just saying...people who FEAR God lie less in my experience, maybe that's just me...

So you mention OTHER religions which you ALSO don't believe in, yep. Makes sense. All I said is that it could not have been invented by you. I don't claim my knowledge is only known by me. You on the other hand think your thinking don't stink.

If humans are going to live together in cooperative societies then following the Golden Rule is the obvious way to make that work and it doesn't really take a genius or a divine Being to figure that out.

[/quote]

Jesus one-upped the Golden Rule by treating us BETTER'n himself in light of his love for God.

Who in turn doesn't treat us BETTERN Himself since he is God, neither does He love us with ALL of Himself since he is God or love HIMSELF with ALL of Himself since He is God.

Go figure. No frog on no dissection table can tell you THAT one, but nothead can. Whoo Hoo! Time for a donation, think?

Nothead's Lesson on the Golden Rule no. 281

[Zzyzx]

.

How is that different from children loving their preferred superheroes ecstatically (with a feeling of ecstasy)? Of course their superheroes are imaginary. Can "gods" be shown to be anything more than imaginary? If so, how?

My Baptism in the Holy Ghost was the common pentecostal experience. You too can have it if you pray with at least hope if not faith.

Thanks anyway but I prefer the real world.

Notice, as I trust readers do, that you ignored the issue of "gods" not being shown to be anything more than imaginary – similar to children's superheros.

It is supernaturally manifest.

It is not uncommon for people to claim "supernatural" experiences. Some become religious or cult leaders, others are institutionalized.

And the answer to your question. No man can describe this experience adequately...it is as intense as a tab of LSD, but not artificially induced.

Heavy "trip?"

My 'baptism' came alone in bed when I awakened from a sleep. I don't believe it was hypnotism either. How can you hypnotize the asleep? Or self-hypnotize?

I do not doubt that you had a psychological / emotional / mental episode and that you are entitled to ascribe it to a supernatural entity. However, your personal experience is not evidence in debate. Statements which may be highly regarded in church are not so in debate.

This testimony you will not believe, but it serves as my best answer to you.

Your "best answer" (personal testimonial / opinion) is meaningless in debate. One is expected (and required by Forum Rules) to substantiate their claims. Making a claim is not substantiating that claim.

Then no testimony in Bible is valid either, or claim by men either, or spiritual guru or acolyte either.

I do not disagree. "Take my word for it" may convince some people – but has no significance in debate.

Notice that in this sub-forum, Christianity and Apologetics, bible is not regarded as any more authoritative than any other book. That seems to be difficult for those who are accustomed to "preaching to the choir" where opposition ideas are not tolerated. When confronting reasoned and sound opposition, many become emotional and irrational. Many are banned for repeatedly ignoring Forum Rules and Sub-forum Guidelines.

We are reduced to speaking only of frogs on the dissection table. Is this really the case here?

Those whose "evidence" consists of testimonials, opinions and conjectures are at a disadvantage in reasoned and honorable debate since those are the weakest forms of "evidence." Anyone can claim anything and ask others to accept it as truthful and accurate. The less gullible are not inclined to accept unverifiable testimonials.

Of course, believers of religious testimonials often refuse to accept testimonials favoring competing religions or "gods" – and often don't believe used car salesmen either.

You on the other hand have NO answers to men, unless it might be to smoke more weed, eat more muchies and get more fat. Amen.

It is not uncommon for those who find "ecstasy" loving their favorite "god" (even if imaginary) to feel superior to those who do not worship that "god." They often fail to observe that people can live just as well without "loving" or worshiping one of the proposed "gods."

I got a sort of ecstacy when I smoked weed...now this hydro stuff is supposed to be better...the various MDA synthetics more nicer, etc.

Perhaps a religious "high" is similar to a chemical high. "Religious experiences" or ecstatic highs can also be induced by electrical stimulation of the human brain. Does that not suggest that religious experiences are mental episodes?

But again this is not an answer to sincere spiritual questions.

To what sincere spiritual questions do you refer?

Non-religion is increasing among the US population (as it already has in Europe) while religion is decreasing. Perhaps the public is learning that one can live a full, interesting, fulfilling, honorable life without recourse to (or baggage of) religion.

Good luck with it...this is all you want then bully for you.

Those are legitimate national trends known to (and of concern to) promoters of religion.

My personal "want" is increase in education, particularly critical / analytical thinking and decision-making.

I got more, and this ain't Jesus per se, only a certain access to the spirit of God in his name...

If religion is comforting to some who need to feel reassurance from "gods", I do not object – for them personally. However, if / when they make claims of knowledge of such things in public debate I often challenge their claims.

...and this what I will promote as I do the Shema, Great Command of the Judeo-Christian faith.

Promotion of religion is most successful in undeveloped areas of Africa, Asia and South America.


Edited to correct format error.

[Tired of the Nonsense]

[Replying to nothead]

Hey that was previously what I said to YOU, dear. What I was getting at, science can't stop it, religion MAYBE can. You say not, I say why not?

And maybe science will some day produce warp drives and transporter technology. At least those things are within the realm of what physics allows is possible. They are pure fiction at the moment however. Greatly increasing the human lifespan is also currently fiction but also a real possibility. Life AFTER death is a good deal more then just fiction however; it's pure imagination driven make believe. Not to mention a contradiction in terms. "The after life" is the world's foremost oxymoron.

Bob Dylan says everybody serves some one. He was at one time smarter than you.

Bob Dylan openly brags of having been a heroin addict. Bob Dylan introduced drugs to the Beatles. I on the other hand have been clean and sober my entire life. So which of us is really the smarter?

Well, I got over it. Us old guys do appreciate a good bowel movement which comes once in a while...which site am I on however...

If this is a contest to see which of us can produce the longest stream, I am turning 66 this year. If I am older then you does that make me the winner, or the loser?

They were trained not to lie, just saying...people who FEAR God lie less in my experience, maybe that's just me...

They were trained NOT to lie about hoards of dead people coming up out of their graves and wandering the streets, and a corpse that comes back to life and flies away? Make me wonder what their REAL whoppers sounded like?

Jesus one-upped the Golden Rule by treating us BETTER'n himself in light of his love for God.

Jesus died almost 2,000 years before I was born, and despite all of the hoopla and 2,000 years worth of urgent promises concerning Jesus' impending almost-any-second-now return, in actual undeniable fact he like everyone else who lived 2,000 years ago is still most reliably and undeniably DEAD. Jesus hasn't "treated" me at all. Because he's DEAD. And that's how dead really works. As opposed to make believe, which is anything you have the ability to imagine.