books of the bible

Argue for and against Christianity

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hanes
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books of the bible

Post #1

Post by hanes »

why did christianity leave some books out of the bible? and on that who picks the books that get to be in the bible?

i just find it rather hypocritical to put some books in and some books out. it seems like they just put the books that made the religion sound all good.
The Gospel of Mary: This Gnostic Text reveals that Mary Magdalene may
have been an apostle, perhaps even a leading apostle, not a prostitute.
While some texts in the Bible seem to deny women a voice in the
Christian community, this texts helps spark the debate about the role
of women in the church.


i was just wondering why books like this werent added? a religion based on the bible should have all the points not just the ones that are fitting.

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Post #51

Post by Scrotum »

People are deluded into thinking all Christans are bloodthristy and oppressive. What about all the ones you meet on the street? That little old lady who goes to church? What about anabaptists? What about jehovah's witnesses, who refused to do so much as bear arms? They are obviously not going to hurt anyone. And if you're going to go on about how Chritians bully other or oppress people, well, I have seen less of that and more people doing such things to religious people, enough to make me sick
We are not talking about what people think about Christians, or how Christians even act in public areas, its their concern.

You may ofcourse talk about whatever you like, but this is not the topic, so i´ll try to direct you to what we where talking about.

But we are on the other hand speaking of the fact that the Christian religion demands ignorance from its followers. As well as condeming everyone that does not follow it (this is your own religion). Open the bible one of these days, you might be surprised.

There is no "wrong idea". And, BTW, if you think wrong ideas should be stopped, well I can see how athiesm could be a wrong idea. I guess that means I should stop you from being an atheist. Lol. But I can't, because unlike you, I try my best not to go around saying "atheists are bad" although evidence keeps on staring me in the face to contradict it. There's probably nicer atheists somewhere. i have tried to be open minded. Pity people like you can't be. I guess I shouldn't be either, if the way you act is so right.
How atheism could be a "wrong idéa", you mean how lack of belief in a deity is "wrong idéa". Interesting, how so, if i may ask.

And what is this evidence of which you speak of. I did not know I was bad, and i never met anyone whom is atheist i would classify as "bad". Adolf Hitler was Christian for example, was he bad? Just curious. What about Abraham Lincoln?


And regarding "stopping people having bad idéas", you are a clear hypocrite when saying this. Obviously, you do not know it. Are you for killing? I mean, MURDER?

No, your not, if you are, you go against your Gods laws. But, and here´s the lovely cookie; If you are against it, you oppress the people wanting to kill. OPPS!!!, Yes, we have set a law for it, as we have other laws, but you just said "There is no "wrong idea"", clearly you think Murder is a bad idéa... It does not even matter which side your own, either you go against your Gods will (hypocrite), or you go against the will of a man wanting to murder (hypocrite).

HAHA, To bad, life is HARD sometimes... Man, i´m good.

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Post #52

Post by scorpia »

As well as condeming everyone that does not follow it (this is your own religion). Open the bible one of these days, you might be surprised.
Whoop de doo. People like you condemn others for following it. At least all a Christian may say is "you will burn in hell for this and that.", and not even many of them do that. You, on the other hand go around insulting them as if you know everything, and treating them like cr@p. I'd rather put up with people telling me I will burn in hell.
How atheism could be a "wrong idéa", you mean how lack of belief in a deity is "wrong idéa". Interesting, how so, if i may ask.
I might ask the same of you. You say religion is the wrong idea. All the usuall arguments involve events others might list. Yet those peopleturn around and act just as bad.
And what is this evidence of which you speak of. I did not know I was bad, and i never met anyone whom is atheist i would classify as "bad".
How nice. You never had to spend your time going to school afraid of others chasing you around, teasing you, and throwing rocks at you for what you believed in. You never got bashed. You have never had to put up with people telling others are perverts and gay or worse just because of what they believe in, despite the lack of evidence. then said people turn around and call THOSE people bigots and homophobic and whatnot. You never have to worry about other people who believe what you do, living in another country, and be detained for their beliefs. And best of all, you don't have to put up with people who can't even consider that people have reasons for their actions and consider those who think differently to them are ignorant.
Adolf Hitler was Christian for example, was he bad?
So, because a person who was a christian was bad, it means the whole of Christianity is bad, eh? Well, considering how atheits have their own black marks, it must mean they are equally as evil. It doesn't matter if it's a minority, oh no. So long as even one is bad, it mus they all are. And since I have seen more than one......... well.......

You should know better to judge people by their worst.
What about Abraham Lincoln?
Abraham lincoln was evil? Well since I don't know as much about American history I'd like to know why. All I know about him is that he wore some big hat and got assassinated
And regarding "stopping people having bad idéas", you are a clear hypocrite when saying this. Obviously, you do not know it. Are you for killing? I mean, MURDER?
Technically, 'stopping people having bad ideas" was what you said first. However, I am presuming you meant the death penalty example. No, it is not hypocritical. The Nguyen (sp?) trial in Singapore, for example. Sure, it seemed rather harsh. But then, sentencing thousands of people to death by selling drugs to them is worse. People could have given him a lighter sentence, like life in prison. But knowing that, it would involve spending 24 years in jail then getting bail eventually and going out selling drugs all over again.

If it the death penalty you were reffering to, I can see how it may be harsh. But such governments have their reasons. And even if I opposed it...... Well, the Singapore governemnt paid no heed to those who did.

Anything else I can think of what I said involved giving an exaple of being treated the way you suggest other should be treated.
No, your not, if you are, you go against your Gods laws
Why? Because I think it might be better for one person to get the death penalty than thousands of others getting killed if he didn't? I don't see how that involves going for murder. A compromise, maybe. And if you are so against murder yourself, you would see that too.

BTW, if you think Christainty is all about being evil and murderous, then why don't you go ahead and stop them yourself, like you keep on going on about? But....... Oh dear, you CAN'T. Not by doing anything short of murder or torture in any case. Just like the death sentence, which you say is so hypocritical. Although the difference with that is that people who die via death sentencing are certainly killers, and have been judged so, while people who follow some religion aren't automatically killers. If you want to convince others through other means such as debating, then debate. Don't spend your time throwing around insults and things like "Religions are stupid cause I say so.", because your attitude is convincing me of the opposite.
Last edited by scorpia on Fri Dec 09, 2005 11:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post #53

Post by queen annie »

McCulloch wrote: Logic, reason and evidence simply cannot lead to these truths.
I beg to differ...if logic, reason, and evidence cannot lead to such 'truths' then
there is no logical reason to consider them evidence of any truth.

If someone claims they are driven by the 'spirit of truth' yet what they say contradicts what any one of us can observe in nature with our eyes, or deduct with our God-given common sense, then surely there is a problem somewhere--perhaps a case of mistaken spiritual identity?

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Post #54

Post by Scrotum »

Whoop de doo. People like you condemn others for following it. At least all a Christian may say is "you will burn in hell for this and that.", and not even many of them do that. You, on the other hand go around insulting them as if you know everything, and treating them like cr@p. I'd rather put up with people telling me I will burn in hell.
So you prefer a fantasy then reality? Sure, its up to you, as long as you dont force this belief on others, which Christians do to their Children.
I might ask the same of you. You say religion is the wrong idea. All the usuall arguments involve events others might list. Yet those peopleturn around and act just as bad.
Ehm, no, you may not. You could ANSWER my question. It was a simple question. And if you want to ask me after replying, feel free to, and I will try to do so.
How nice. You never had to spend your time going to school afraid of others chasing you around, teasing you, and throwing rocks at you for what you believed in. You never got bashed. You have never had to put up with people telling others are perverts and gay or worse just because of what they believe in, despite the lack of evidence. then said people turn around and call THOSE people bigots and homophobic and whatnot. You never have to worry about other people who believe what you do, living in another country, and be detained for their beliefs. And best of all, you don't have to put up with people who can't even consider that people have reasons for their actions and consider those who think differently to them are ignorant.
Nope i haven´t. Nice anecdote. But in relevance to what if i may ask?
So, because a person who was a christian was bad, it means the whole of Christianity is bad, eh? Well, considering how atheits have their own black marks, it must mean they are equally as evil. It doesn't matter if it's a minority, oh no. So long as even one is bad, it mus they all are. And since I have seen more than one......... well.......
Ehm, i asked you if you thought Adolf Hitler was bad/good. Nothing else. Please try to avoid putting words in my mouth, and i shall do the same.
You should know better to judge people by their worst.
You should know better then to put words in other peoples mouths, and then answer your own assertions.
Abraham lincoln was evil? Well since I don't know as much about American history I'd like to know why. All I know about him is that he wore some big hat and got assassinated
I asked what you thought about Abraham Lincoln, god/bad. Once again, you put words in my mouth. I just wanted to know, if you dont want to answer (or cant), fine, but dont make up your own answers/questions, that sorta spoils the point of debating.
Technically, 'stopping people having bad ideas" was what you said first. However, I am presuming you meant the death penalty example. No, it is not hypocritical. The Nguyen (sp?) trial in Singapore, for example. Sure, it seemed rather harsh. But then, sentencing thousands of people to death by selling drugs to them is worse. People could have given him a lighter sentence, like life in prison. But knowing that, it would involve spending 24 years in jail then getting bail eventually and going out selling drugs all over again.
I did? Must have forgotten, im sorry.

I did not mean the death penalty, i meant Murder. Some people like murdering, preventing Them is oppression against them. This gives a good simile to Christianity you see. Christianity FORCES their children to believe in it, using violence (rare, but not uncommon), and Fear. This stops the childs mind from functioning, as Christianity demands ignorance. (your bible, read it).

Back to the Question, what about Murderer´s, are they to be PREVENTED? Its their idéas. Saying yes to this, you are accepting the fact that some people have "bad idéas". Which was my point.
If it the death penalty you were reffering to, I can see how it may be harsh. But such governments have their reasons. And even if I opposed it...... Well, the Singapore governemnt paid no heed to those who did.
The Singapore sentence was a good one. The Australian goverment should have been behind it.
Anything else I can think of what I said involved giving an exaple of being treated the way you suggest other should be treated.
An eye for an Eye?
Why? Because I think it might be better for one person to get the death penalty than thousands of others getting killed if he didn't? I don't see how that involves going for murder. A compromise, maybe. And if you are so against murder yourself, you would see that too.
Look answer above.
BTW, if you think Christainty is all about being evil and murderous, then why don't you go ahead and stop them yourself, like you keep on going on about? But....... Oh dear, you CAN'T. Not by doing anything short of murder or torture in any case. Just like the death sentence, which you say is so hypocritical. Although the difference with that is that people who die via death sentencing are certainly killers, and have been judged so, while people who follow some religion aren't automatically killers. If you want to convince others through other means such as debating, then debate. Don't spend your time throwing around insults and things like "Religions are stupid cause I say so.", because your attitude is convincing me of the opposite.
I have no prolems eradicating Christians. I know very well that the world would be far better (and anyone else with some intelligence would agree) and less ignorant if we got rid of Christians/Jews/Muslims et cetera. But this is not the topic, and my personal opinion about it has nothing to do with this.
Last edited by Scrotum on Sat Dec 10, 2005 12:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post #55

Post by trencacloscas »

What about all those Christain matyrs? What about Communism? Christians have been oppressed. Historical fact.
Check your historical sources, scorpia. The martyrs were -in the most part- just fake. Communism did not oppress Christians in particular, but all the "enemies of the state". So, Christians persecuted is an authentic rarity in our world. Nothing compared with seventeen centuries of persecution.
People are deluded into thinking all Christans are bloodthristy and oppressive.
People as... you mean, people in general? I don't think so. And it is a disgrace. Christians as a body ARE bloodthirsty and oppresive. Check those seventeen centuries.
What about all the ones you meet on the street? That little old lady who goes to church? What about anabaptists? What about jehovah's witnesses, who refused to do so much as bear arms? They are obviously not going to hurt anyone.
They probably won't hurt anyone because they don't have any power.
And if you're going to go on about how Chritians bully other or oppress people, well, I have seen less of that and more people doing such things to religious people, enough to make me sick.
I've seen quite the contrary. I've seen hatred. How Christians condemn and exclude the different, how they plot against everyone that thinks for himself, how they grind their teeth against the ones who pretend to live their life free from prejudice and superstition... It would be interesting to hear how this bullying of Christians you mention took place. I've never seen a mob of people at the entrance of a cinema to boicot a religious movie, but I did see Christians attacking the ones who went to see "Life Of Brian" or a play by Darío Fo.
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Post #56

Post by Scrotum »

Life Of Brian was boycotted? Where?

"Every sperm counts".. Damn thats a good movie, worth watching again.

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Post #57

Post by scorpia »

So you prefer a fantasy then reality? Sure, its up to you, as long as you dont force this belief on others, which Christians do to their Children.
Funny, that didn't happen to me. And what's even funnier is that that's probably what you would do to your children, raise them with your own beliefs.

Nope i haven´t. Nice anecdote. But in relevance to what if i may ask?
Ancedote? That happens to be reality. The life I and aothers have lived. Goes to show people with the label "atheist" aren't all that innocent. The way you call it an ancedote reveals how you can't even face the truth.
Ehm, i asked you if you thought Adolf Hitler was bad/good. Nothing else. Please try to avoid putting words in my mouth, and i shall do the same.
Why? He obviously was, and the expected response would be "See? Because one of them was bad, they're all bad." Or were you going to point out some people like crusaders etc did bad things in God's name. I know that. I know we're not all perfect. Sadly however some atheists/ agnostics think that they are perfect. That being that they will be morally superior. Maybe it's time someone pointed out you you're not all that crash hot either. And if you're going to go on and on about what "Christians" have done in the past, uyou shouldn't, you don't want someone else to do the same to you.
I did not mean the death penalty, i meant Murder. Some people like murdering, preventing Them is oppression against them. This gives a good simile to Christianity you see. Christianity FORCES their children to believe in it,
BS. I was not forced into it. And the kids surrounding tried to force it out of me instead.
using violence (rare, but not uncommon), and Fear. This stops the childs mind from functioning, as
As do some atheists. They use violence. And fear. They want me to go with the mob with them rather than choosing for myself.
Its their idéas. Saying yes to this, you are accepting the fact that some people have "bad idéas". Which was my point.
Yeah; you. It's your idea. You want people to go around stopping people from havimng bad ideas? From murdering? I look aound with MY OWN TWO EYES and see that there is no threat from Christains. Therefore no need to stop them. People like you however .....
An eye for an Eye?
An example
I have no prolems eradicating Christians. I know very well that the world would be far better (and anyone else with some intelligence would agree) and less ignorant if we got rid of Christians/Jews/Muslims et cetera. But this is not the topic, and my personal opinion about it has nothing to do with this.
Go ahead then. Go ahead and do it. Go ahead and kill all the Jehovah's witnesses who refuse to bear arms, go ahead and kill that little old lady at church. Go ahead. then go ahead and BS your way into saying you're better than and crusader. And if your child goes ahead and decides to be religious, kill him too. Then say how hypocritical everyone else is.

You wonder why I don't think much of people like you? Your personal opinion is the problem. You're no better than ANYTHING you say the Christains are, because you act just like you say they are. And futhermore I'm fed up with debating with you. I'd rather debate with someone I can respect. I cannot respect you. Better to leave now rather than wind up doing nothing but throwing around insults. I have TRIED to simply tell some people here what they're becoming. But you won't listen. Go ahead and kill eberyone. See if I @#$ well care!!! #-o

And BTW, I'm not trying to bring about some prophecy. The prophecys mentioned in the Bible at the end of times says that people worshipping a false God do the persecutions, not athiests
The martyrs were -in the most part- just fake.
Nero throwing Christians to the lions happened, didn't it?
Communism did not oppress Christians in particular, but all the "enemies of the state".
So what about friends of mine who went up to countries who were communist, who were threatened because of what they believed? They weren't enemies of the state.
Christians persecuted is an authentic rarity in our world.
From what I've seen I beg to differ.
Nothing compared with seventeen centuries of persecution.
...Of people who translated the bible.
Christians as a body ARE bloodthirsty and oppresive. Check those seventeen centuries.
That was Catholics. And even so, I don't go around calling catholics I know bloodthirsty maniacs. Americans have had many wars. I don't go around calling all americans evil. Why do you do ANYTHING like this? Even I know that not all athiests are that bad and can be good people, but SOME of them.......I might have accepted the responsibility of the past before despite it being because of different people........ But no-one else does the same

And I know full well of that history. But that is what it is; history. But after what Scorum wrote above, it isn't the Christains who were going to repeat it.
They probably won't hurt anyone because they don't have any power.
Pfft. I have heard many complaints that athiests aren't in power either. Yet they already go around treating others like cr@p
I've seen hatred. How Christians condemn and exclude the different, how they plot against everyone that thinks for himself, how they grind their teeth against the ones who pretend to live their life free from prejudice and superstition... It would be interesting to hear how this bullying of Christians you mention took place. I've never seen a mob of people at the entrance of a cinema to boicot a religious movie, but I did see Christians attacking the ones who went to see "Life Of Brian" or a play by Darío Fo
All this hatred Americans speak of. Okay, I know I can't quite ignore it. But when people do that to Christians.. Or other religions........

One thing is for certain, the bullying has to stop. And I have tried, online to see some of these "Christian Nazi's" people talk about it, but everytime it's just a prank site. I can only do what I can where I live. If I do see a Christian behaving badly, I will of course stop it.
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Post #58

Post by Scrotum »

Funny, that didn't happen to me. And what's even funnier is that that's probably what you would do to your children, raise them with your own beliefs.
You seem to ignore the fact that Christianity, or, perhaps i should use Islam? It is synonymous you know. Indocrinate there children. End of story.

We are talking general here ofcourse, else a debate would be pointless, then everyone in the world is a rapist because one did it. No, thats not how it works, in GENERAL this is the Christian attiude, as well as Muslims. I would DARE you to the fact that most atheist are very open minded towards there children, and encourage them to find out more about religions. Compared ot Christianity, which tell them to avoid. It is clear you have had some bad experience with "atheists", as your aggressive comments show, but dont overdo it.
Ancedote? That happens to be reality. The life I and aothers have lived. Goes to show people with the label "atheist" aren't all that innocent. The way you call it an ancedote reveals how you can't even face the truth.
And anecdote generally refers to Reality. If someone is telling me some anecdote, it is (in normal cases the word is used), something that happened to this person, and he wish to tell us about it. So i do not understand your above comment. Perhaps you did not know what the word "anecdote" meant, which is fine, but its better to look it up, or tell me, so i can explain it to you, to avoid confusion. In all friendliness.
Why? He obviously was, and the expected response would be "See? Because one of them was bad, they're all bad." Or were you going to point out some people like crusaders etc did bad things in God's name. I know that. I know we're not all perfect. Sadly however some atheists/ agnostics think that they are perfect. That being that they will be morally superior. Maybe it's time someone pointed out you you're not all that crash hot either. And if you're going to go on and on about what "Christians" have done in the past, uyou shouldn't, you don't want someone else to do the same to you.
Once again you are asserting things, please, give me a chance to answer your questions instead of giving your own answers and comments.

You said he "obviously" was Evil. Why?
BS. I was not forced into it. And the kids surrounding tried to force it out of me instead.
Once again, we are taling in general (obviously). You can not use your personal history as proof of the opposite. If QED have been raped, OBVIOUSLY i have been raped... Thats how this logic works, perhaps you se the faults in it?

Christian children get Indoctrinated GENERALLY to believe in Christianity.
Muslim Children get Indoctrinated to believe in Islam, GENERLLY. And so forth.

Children of Atheistic belief (or lack of), are in MY KNOWLEDGE very open minded about religion. I know several parents (not being one myself), whom sent there children to SUNDAY SCHOOL even when they where not religious, just because. Most European countries also have Religious Education and so forth. So i would say, Atheist, are FAR more open minded then Christians, and this is not only a personal opinion, but ,majority would agree.
As do some atheists. They use violence. And fear. They want me to go with the mob with them rather than choosing for myself.
THEY do? What Dogmas do they follow? Whom are THEY you are speaking of. Atheists are not a GROUP of people with the same idealogy, such as Cristianity. People can be Black, White, Pink, Poorly educated, highly educated, stupid, smart, woman, male, homosexual, heterosexual, and be Atheist.

You SEEM to be talking about ATHEIST as a group, are using violence and fear, which is ludicrous. But i will give you a life-line here, You did mean PEOPLE in general then? But that would include Christians to, and Muslims, and Jews,and so forth. But if you meant ATHEIST, then you need to explain yourself.
Yeah; you. It's your idea. You want people to go around stopping people from havimng bad ideas? From murdering? I look aound with MY OWN TWO EYES and see that there is no threat from Christains. Therefore no need to stop them. People like you however
So preventing Children from evolving is not dangerous? Telling them that the Earth is 6000 years old, which would stop them, from seeking certain education. That God Made Adam and Eve in the Garden, which stops biology and so fort. In what way would this NOT be a threat yo human civilization?

Nero throwing Christians to the lions happened, didn't it?
You think Christians where a specific group targeted bt the Emperor? You think Atheist, Jews, Turks not got thrown in?
So what about friends of mine who went up to countries who were communist, who were threatened because of what they believed? They weren't enemies of the state.
HE does not care about your friends anecdote, because HE was telling you about Communistic ideology. No religion is specifically targeted in Communism, sp give that up, ok.
From what I've seen I beg to differ.
OK, i dont know where you are from. Do you live in the Western World? Europe? United States? In any case, in the Western world this does not happen, the OPPOSITE is actually True in the States, where it can be darn tight unpleasant to be atheist. The last state that recognized Atheists as "people" of the U.S, was 1980 something. 1980 man, They could not fill in lawsuits, borrow money and so forth, because they refused to accept a God. THATS oppression.

Feel free to prove us wrong, give us some examples of the terrible persecution Christians are feeling in the world, especially in the Western world, i am genuinely interested in hearing it.
All this hatred Americans speak of. Okay, I know I can't quite ignore it. But when people do that to Christians.. Or other religions........
Actually, United States is a perfect example of how CHRISTIANS persecute and oppress none-christians. That´s your kind, what have you to say about that then? All i hear is how sorry we should feel for you guys because you are getting "oppressed", never stating how, why, or when. Whiles the opposite is actually the truth.

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Post #59

Post by micatala »

I see this thread has gotten quite passionate. As a moderator, I would like to put in a gentle reminder to be as civil as possible.

Keep in mind that assertions should be supported with evidence. A debate is not merely an assertion of one's opinions.

I won't respond to any of the particular points made at this point, but hope to do so in the near future.

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Post #60

Post by trencacloscas »

Nero throwing Christians to the lions happened, didn't it?
Nope. Doesn't seem so. Just a Christian myth based on an interpolation made to the text of Suetonius. :|
How nice. You never had to spend your time going to school afraid of others chasing you around, teasing you, and throwing rocks at you for what you believed in. You never got bashed.
Sorry to say it, scorpia, but if you really got bashed for being Christian, it was obviously an incredible exception to the rule. I live in a country where only fifty years ago, people got shot in the head for refusing to kneel in front of an image of Virgin Mary. I don't know where you live, is it a country where Christians are a minority?
Life Of Brian was boycotted? Where?
Argentina. I was living there back then. A mob of Christians gathered with banners against the movie (a movie they even didn't watch), booed and bullyed people at the entrance and ended up cancelling the matinee. The police didn't do anything because they were people related to the Catholic Church.
"Every sperm counts".. Damn thats a good movie, worth watching again.
Yeah, a fantastic movie. But that wasn't "Life Of Brian" but "The Meaning Of Life", also by Monty Python.
Sor Eucharist: I need to talk with you, Dr. House. Sister Augustine believes in things that aren’t real.
Dr. Gregory House: I thought that was a job requirement for you people.

(HOUSE MD. Season 1 Episode 5)

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