Fundamentalists...defending the indefensible

Elijah John · Post by **Elijah John** » Tue Aug 18, 2015 11:06 am

How bout this one:

"Exodus 21:20-21
When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property "

Is this verse from God or Moses?

Could it be only Moses imperfect understanding of the will of God, what HE thought God wanted?

And thus isn't this an obvious flaw in the Bible?

If not, and you STILL maintain that the Bible is infallible, how do you defend:

a) the Bible's condoning of slavery, considering other human beings to be "property"
b) the Bible permitting (if not condoning) the beating of slaves, as long as they don't "die right away"

Wootah · Post by **Wootah** » Wed Aug 19, 2015 8:50 pm

[Replying to post 48 by OnceConvinced]

Actually God waits patiently for us. I can't think of an incident in the Bible where God doesn't restrain himself until the sin is too great to ignore. He is a big softie.

Faithful One · Post by **Faithful One** » Wed Aug 19, 2015 8:53 pm

[Replying to post 45 by Danmark]

It is obvious from the context of the passage that there was no question that owning slaves was permitted by God.

No it doesn't ,,this is him intervening on behalf of the slave. The owning of slaves was permitted by man ,,not God . Elijah understood this point .

You have ignored or dismissed the verses I have shown , that completely shows that you are wrong about how God feels about slaves . I have shown you where the bible states it is wrong to turn a slave back to his owner . I have shown where God puts the slave on equal ground as far as God sees them , they are equal in his eyes. I have shown verse that shows the owner terrified of Gods wrath should he mistreat a slave .

I have shown that slave in those days could mean many things from indentured servant , to war prisoner.

You think this one verse is God condoning slavery ? Not hardly man condoned slavery , it was interwoven in the society. I have also explained to you why Jesus could not just start a slave rebellion and the repercussions if he did so,, by the Romans .

I have made my case that God did not condone slavery , with verse .

Nowhere in the bible does it show God is o.k with slavery. This was how things worked in this era and societies evolved away from slavery.

Using this verse to show God condoned slavery is a huge fail .

Zzyzx · Post by **Zzyzx** » Wed Aug 19, 2015 9:07 pm

.

Faithful One wrote: Nowhere in the bible does it show God is o.k with slavery.

Unless I am mistaken, nowhere in the Bible is it shown that God was AGAINST slavery.

Faithful One wrote: This was how things worked in this era and societies evolved away from slavery.

Could a just and benevolent God have TAUGHT societies to abandon slavery? According to Bible tales the God did teach that adultery, eating shellfish, wearing clothing of mixed fabrics were wrong and to be avoided -- but didn't seem concerned about slavery.

Strange. No?

Danmark · Post by **Danmark** » Wed Aug 19, 2015 9:08 pm

Wootah wrote: Actually God waits patiently for us. I can't think of an incident in the Bible where God doesn't restrain himself until the sin is too great to ignore. He is a big softie.

Really? He kills everyone and all the animals, infants and kittens included for unspecified 'wickedness' or 'corruption' and you call him 'patient?' He appears more as an angry child losing his temper; no patience whatsoever.

He repeatedly kills the entire populace of several cities, yet you claim he exercises self restraint. He allows slaves to be beaten half to death and allows a faultless man, Job, to suffer all kinds of infirmities, yet you call him a 'softie.'

If God is a 'big softie,' give me Hitler. At least death in a gas chamber is relatively swift.

If the Bible is the word of God, then even God disagrees with you:

Romans 1:18
'For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth.'

John 3:36
'Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.'

Isaiah 26:21
'For behold, the Lord is coming out from his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity, and the earth will disclose the blood shed on it, and will no more cover its slain.'

Ezekiel 25:17 ESV
"I will execute great vengeance on them with wrathful rebukes. Then they will know that I am the Lord, when I lay my vengeance upon them.â€�

Revelation 20:15
'And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.'

Nahum 1:2-6
'The Lord is a jealous and avenging God; the Lord is avenging and wrathful; the Lord takes vengeance on his adversaries and keeps wrath for his enemies. The Lord is slow to anger and great in power, and the Lord will by no means clear the guilty. His way is in whirlwind and storm, and the clouds are the dust of his feet. He rebukes the sea and makes it dry; he dries up all the rivers; Bashan and Carmel wither; the bloom of Lebanon withers. The mountains quake before him; the hills melt; the earth heaves before him, the world and all who dwell in it. Who can stand before his indignation? Who can endure the heat of his anger? His wrath is poured out like fire, and the rocks are broken into pieces by him.'

Revelation 19:11-21
'Then I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse! The one sitting on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he judges and makes war. His eyes are like a flame of fire, and on his head are many diadems, and he has a name written that no one knows but himself. He is clothed in a robe dipped in blood, and the name by which he is called is The Word of God. And the armies of heaven, arrayed in fine linen, white and pure, were following him on white horses. From his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations, and he will rule them with a rod of iron. He will tread the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty. ...'

Willum · Post by **Willum** » Wed Aug 19, 2015 9:34 pm

Divine Insight wrote: [Replying to post 48 by OnceConvinced]

You have posted excellent points.

This claim that the Bible can be viewed as nothing more than the ramblings of men and STILL have something to do with a God simply doesn't hold water.

It's either the word of God or a pack of outright lies.

There can be no middle-of-the-road here.

The Fundamentalist do have at least that much right. All they need to do now is realize that it's not the word of any God and they'd be done.

Divine-as usual.

I have to disagree with having worked with mixed truths before. It may very well be perterbed truths. In which case, experience has shown that its effects would be much worse than if it were all lies.

But then why would a god allow this? Which means by default...

Danmark · Post by **Danmark** » Wed Aug 19, 2015 9:54 pm

Willum wrote:
Divine Insight wrote: [Replying to post 48 by OnceConvinced]

You have posted excellent points.

This claim that the Bible can be viewed as nothing more than the ramblings of men and STILL have something to do with a God simply doesn't hold water.

It's either the word of God or a pack of outright lies.

There can be no middle-of-the-road here.

The Fundamentalist do have at least that much right. All they need to do now is realize that it's not the word of any God and they'd be done.

Divine-as usual.

I have to disagree with having worked with mixed truths before. It may very well be perterbed truths. In which case, experience has shown that its effects would be much worse than if it were all lies.

But then why would a god allow this? Which means by default...

"Perterbed?" I'm afraid to guess. "Perturbed?" Anyway, I think I agree.

Faithful One · Post by **Faithful One** » Wed Aug 19, 2015 10:00 pm

[Replying to post 53 by Zzyzx]

You are mistaken ...

Deuteronomy 23:15-16King James Version (KJV)

15 Thou shalt not deliver unto his master the servant which is escaped from his master unto thee:

16 He shall dwell with thee, even among you, in that place which he shall choose in one of thy gates, where it liketh him best: thou shalt not oppress him.

Could a just and benevolent God have TAUGHT societies to abandon slavery? According to Bible tales the God did teach that adultery, eating shellfish, wearing clothing of mixed fabrics were wrong and to be avoided -- but didn't seem concerned about slavery.

Strange. No?

God does not control a man in his ways such as this . Gods main concern at anytime dealing with man(speaking to an apostle directly ) , was to do with salvation , never their personal wrong doings ,,or personal issues, always only concentrating on the message. e.g

Say Peter had a problem with gluttony , if he were to speak to the lord , this would not be spoke of , would concern him with the word and the message , not his personal failings. The slaves were Gods children also , he made this perfectly clear in verse.

I also explained to you that if Jesus would have started an insurrection of the slaves , massacres would occur , by the hand of the Romans. There is no doubt.

Danmark · Post by **Danmark** » Wed Aug 19, 2015 10:13 pm

Faithful One wrote: [Replying to post 53 by Zzyzx]

You are mistaken ...

Deuteronomy 23:15-16King James Version (KJV)

15 Thou shalt not deliver unto his master the servant which is escaped from his master unto thee:

16 He shall dwell with thee, even among you, in that place which he shall choose in one of thy gates, where it liketh him best: thou shalt not oppress him.

I am constantly amazed that anyone cites the Bible for any moral principle. In addition to Exodus 20 and 21, one need look no further than the chapter of Deuteronomy you just cited to find ridiculous and unfair principles cast as God's Law:

â€œHe that is wounded in the stones or hath his private member cut off shall not enter into the congregation of the Lord.
A bastard shall not enter into the congregation of the Lord; even to his tenth generation shall he not enter into the congregation of the Lord.
An Ammonite or Moabite shall not enter into the congregation of the Lord; even to their tenth generation shall they not enter into the congregation of the Lord for ever, ...."
__ Deuteronomy 23:1-3

To seek guidance from such nonsense is to be morally bankrupt.

Zzyzx · Post by **Zzyzx** » Wed Aug 19, 2015 10:27 pm

.

Faithful One wrote:
Zzyzx wrote:
Faithful One wrote: Nowhere in the bible does it show God is o.k with slavery.
Unless I am mistaken, nowhere in the Bible is it shown that God was AGAINST slavery.
You are mistaken ...

Deuteronomy 23:15-16King James Version (KJV)

15 Thou shalt not deliver unto his master the servant which is escaped from his master unto thee:

16 He shall dwell with thee, even among you, in that place which he shall choose in one of thy gates, where it liketh him best: thou shalt not oppress him.

THAT is being offered as evidence of God being AGAINST slavery? Seriously?

Is this from the same God who declares Thou shall not commit adultery, covet thy neighbor's wife, bear false witness, steal, worship false gods (or wear mixed fabrics)?

When it comes to slavery, "Well just don't beat them to death and don't return escaped slaves, but you can keep virgin girls for yourselves."

Yup, he sure made it clear that he opposed slavery, didn't he -- in the minds of Apologists -- not in what was written.

Faithful One · Post by **Faithful One** » Wed Aug 19, 2015 10:39 pm

[Replying to post 59 by Zzyzx]

Yup, he sure made it clear that he opposed slavery, didn't he -- in the minds of Apologists -- not in what was written

? What part of "do not oppress him, do you not get ? What part of "do not turn him in "do you not understand ?

Does this ring " pro slavery " to you ?

What part of " let him stay where he likes " do you not get ?

You are also ignoring my other points.

I have shown you this verse is intervention , not a condoning .