Divine intervention for proper understanding

[Justin108]

Everything, possibly short of a telephone directory, is open for debate. An omnipotent God may well have good reason for inspiring a book that requires His own intervensioin to be accurately understood as He wants.

In this regard the book of Matthew in the bible contains the following observation attributed to Jesus Christ; when asked why he (Jesus) didn't speak in plain straightforward terms but rather in illustrations (the interpretation of which would be open to debate) his reply is recorded below:

"“Why is it you speak to them by the use of illustrations?� 11 In reply he said: “To YOU it is granted to understand the sacred secrets of the kingdom of the heavens, but to those people it is not granted. 12 For whoever has, more will be given him and he will be made to abound; but whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him. 13 This is why I speak to them by the use of illustrations, because, looking, they look in vain, and hearing, they hear in vain, neither do they get the sense of it"

IF the Bible is accepted as the word of GOD, it is accepted as clear.

Any unclearness then resides in the creature. Every statement that coincides perfectly with the character and plans of GOD can be perverted and subverted to mean the opposite of HIS meaning, causing confusion in some...in other words, nothing is sacrosanct to those locked in sin. That the world of GOD is taken to be incomprehensible to those locked in sin is the orthodox position of Christianity.

Christians often claim (or imply) that in order to properly understand the Bible, one needs divine guidance and that the reason atheists find flaws in the Bible is simply because they lack this divine guidance as they do not allow the Holy Spirit to guide them.

But how do Christians know that their disapproval and rejection of the Quran is not for similar reasons? What if you reject the Quran because you do not allow the Spirit of Allah to guide you in the proper understanding of Islam? Why is the rejection of other holy texts due to their content perfectly justified, but the rejection of the Bible due to its content is a flaw in the reader? How can you be sure your rejection of the Quran is not the result of your misunderstanding of the Quran?

[Zzyzx]

.

Wisdom ≠ knowledge.
Wisdom is higher than knowledge.
It is not the palace of wisdom to improve man's state of knowledge.

What, exactly, is the palace [sic] of wisdom?

Wise is defined as:

marked by deep understanding, keen discernment, and a capacity for sound judgment; exercising or showing sound judgment https://www.merriam-webster.com

If that is not used to improve man's state of knowledge, WHAT is the place of wisdom -- to pontificate and attempt to sound intelligent?

[marco]

[Replying to post 39 by theophile]. Do not take this personally. I have seen this thing before. It is the product of religious training in semenary or wherever? It is designed to come across as a profound truth but should be classified under "if you don't have any proof, confound them with bullarky" Your post seems to be a string of unsubstantiated assertions? It isn't even biblical.

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It is rather personal to guess at a poster's possible training in a seminary and review their motivation. It's best to deal with the topic under discussion.

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[postroad]

[Replying to post 51 by Zzyzx]
Just like PCE. It's a mystery! I also believe this deserves repeating "a mystery is a blasphemy that must be believed"

[Justin108]

That depends on which one is more on the side of what is right.

The Biblical God is both homophobic and condones slavery

Do you think God is never to be challenged? That God doesn't value human beings for our advice, and arguments, in pursuit of what is right?

You give me a handful of instances where God allowed humans to disagree with him while ignoring all the instances where God killed whoever didn't do as he says (Lot's wife, Onan, etc.)

These give us the true model of God-human relationship, I think

And in fact, if I made a biblical argument, I think the biblical God would be thrilled if we came to the table with a different answer that was arguably better.[/quote]
Then why does the Biblical God punish worship of other gods with death? If God was so welcoming of us exploring other religions, he would not have strictly condemned it

The question, as I tried to express above, goes down to what preferences or values the 'gods' that we invent reveal.

If we "invent" gods then clearly these gods are not real

[Justin108]

I think it is not possible to honestly say so, because they don’t say “and nothing more�, or “they had just one name each�.

No matter what obvious and clear contradictions I give you, you will come up with some absurd excuse for why it isn't.

You're telling me that every one of these people just had different names and that Matthew and Luke, for whatever reason, decided to use each different name?

The gaping flaw in this absurd notion is the fact that the number of ancestors between Jesus and Abraham differ between genealogies, so even if they had "different names", that would not account for the different number of ancestors between accounts

And it is also possible that they just told the part they knew. Neither of them is saying that there was no one else.

They said "son of" as in "this person is that person's father". What do you mean "it didn't there was no one else"?? How many fathers do you have?? People have one father! The fact that these accounts differ cannot be explained by "oh they forgot to mention Joseph's other father"

Bible would contradict itself in this if it would say that they had only one name each and this is absolutely all that there ever was.

I'm done here. I refuse to debate you with these kinds of absurd and ridiculous justifications. No matter how clear a contradiction is, you simply refuse to acknowledge it.

[theophile]

[Replying to Justin108]

The Biblical God is both homophobic and condones slavery

The biblical God flips hierarchies and tells us to serve the least among us.
Yes, permits slavery, but also encodes rights for slaves in law, which to me points to a future where, once the world can handle it, slavery would be abolished. Such laws are a step on the way. Just think Lincoln. Could he free the slaves in a day? Of course not. Don't be ridiculous. It's a long, compromising process.

As for homosexuality, I have a strong feeling if the bible was written, say 20 years ago, Jesus would have been dining with homosexuals and the poor. The biblical God stands with the outcasts of society and wants life of every kind to flourish. Yes, there may be metaphoric language that calls for heterosexual unions in the bible, but there are also talking snakes. As in, let's not always take it so literally and think more in terms of the spirit of it, which, again, is a God who stands with outcasts and wants all kinds of life to flourish.

You give me a handful of instances where God allowed humans to disagree with him while ignoring all the instances where God killed whoever didn't do as he says (Lot's wife, Onan, etc.)

Of course there are instances where hard actions are called for. Where there are individuals or even whole societies that are so far gone, and inhibiting life, that destruction becomes the right answer. So what's your point? I wouldn't expect God to endlessly debate Hitler for instance. At some point, hardened hearts simply need to be destroyed to save the lives that they oppress or are themselves destroying.

And besides, no one ever said God makes no mistakes! Always being on the side of right and pursuing what is right doesn't mean everything you do is right.

Then why does the Biblical God punish worship of other gods with death? If God was so welcoming of us exploring other religions, he would not have strictly condemned it

I told you. It depends on the spirit of those gods. A golden calf, for instance, is not in the same spirit of God. Does that mean Allah isn't? Of course not! A golden calf is clearly a symbol of profane wealth. It is a far cry from the broader care for all things that God calls us to.

If we "invent" gods then clearly these gods are not real

That makes no sense whatsoever. Generation by imagination and real world experience (or even imagination on its own for that matter) does not preclude reality.

Please, prove me that is not the case.

[Justin108]

Yes, permits slavery, but also encodes rights for slaves in law, which to me points to a future where, once the world can handle it, slavery would be abolished. Such laws are a step on the way.

So God kills Lot's wife for looking behind her, destroys nations for worshiping other gods, but bends over backwards to appease the Jews and let them have their slaves? What would the Jews do if God said "no more slaves"? Say no? Okay and then God does what he always does, sends fire from the heavens and gets the Jews to do as he says as he did time and time again in the Old Testament.

Just think Lincoln. Could he free the slaves in a day? Of course not.

Okay do I need to point out the glaring difference between Lincoln and God?

As for homosexuality, I have a strong feeling if the bible was written, say 20 years ago, Jesus would have been dining with homosexuals and the poor. The biblical God stands with the outcasts of society

God is the one who cast them out in the first place! He is the one who called homosexuality an abomination!

Yes, there may be metaphoric language that calls for heterosexual unions in the bible

There is also literal language that tells us to stone men for sleeping with other men

Of course there are instances where hard actions are called for.

Apparently slavery isn't one of them. What made it necessary to kill Lot's wife?

So what's your point? I wouldn't expect God to endlessly debate Hitler for instance.

How is Lot's wife comparable to Hitler?

And besides, no one ever said God makes no mistakes!

My understanding of God is one of omnipotence and omniscience. He is necessarily without mistakes

I told you. It depends on the spirit of those gods.

God never said "worship other gods as long as they are good". The Bible says "worship NO OTHER GOD"

If we "invent" gods then clearly these gods are not real

That makes no sense whatsoever. Generation by imagination and real world experience (or even imagination on its own for that matter) does not preclude reality.

When I talk about gods, I'm talking about literal beings. How does our imagination of gods create literal beings?

[Willum]

[Replying to post 56 by theophile]

The Biblical God is both homophobic and condones slavery

The biblical God flips hierarchies and tells us to serve the least among us.

So, I am reading your post, and let me make sure I am understanding you right -
You are saying the homosexuals and slaves - and I presume the other groups that Bible condemns - witches, etc., are the least among us?

Just what are you saying?

[Replying to post 57 by Justin108]

So God kills Lot's wife for looking behind her, destroys nations for worshiping other gods, but bends over backwards to appease the Jews and let them have their slaves?

Yeah, this is a great point. When Jews worship other Gods, they don't deserve death... hmmm, why would that be?

[postroad]

[Replying to post 57 by Justin108]

Slavery is integral to the functioning of the Law. The very poor must make restitution somehow.

Exodus 22:3
but if it happens after sunrise, the defender is guilty of bloodshed. “Anyone who steals must certainly make restitution, but if they have nothing, they must be sold to pay for their theft.

although they could not be bought and resold and separated from their families.

Leviticus 25:39-42New International Version (NIV)

39 “‘If any of your fellow Israelites become poor and sell themselves to you, do not make them work as slaves. 40 They are to be treated as hired workers or temporary residents among you; they are to work for you until the Year of Jubilee. 41 Then they and their children are to be released, and they will go back to their own clans and to the property of their ancestors. 42 Because the Israelites are my servants, whom I brought out of Egypt, they must not be sold as slaves.

[theophile]

[Replying to Willum]

You are saying the homosexuals and slaves - and I presume the other groups that Bible condemns - witches, etc., are the least among us?

No. I said in reference to slaves that they are "the least among us." This was to indicate what happens to slavery in the bible - it gets flipped on its head as per Jesus' call that we serve the the least among us.

I said in reference to homosexuals that they are "the outcasts of society" - or at least they were 20-40 years ago at least in Western society. Today, this is no longer quite so true.

And again, Jesus / God stands with the outcasts in respect for life in all its diversity. Flips, again, the social norm on its head.

That is what I'm saying.