Christians, what would it take?

[Inigo Montoya]

What would have to happen for you Christians to abandon your beliefs in God, miracles, the accuracy of the Bible's stories, etc.?

We have a couple panentheists, at least one Muslim, and heaven knows what else frequenting this subforum; you folk feel free to chime in on your respective versions of "God/god" and apply the OP to it as you see fit.

On a personal note, I'm especially anxious to hear from Ted and FtK, Goose and BThread.

[Willum]

[Replying to post 49 by liamconnor]

[Replying to post 48 by JehovahsWitness]

Firstly, the Jews did not worship Roman coins.

No, nor do Jews sacrificing rams to Yahweh worship rams, what kind of ingenuous comment is that? Oh, yeah, desperate.

Just as picking apart other elaborations.
Isn't it funny how defense of God never has anything to do with, you know, reality, but always with definitions, simile, and other word-games? It is with these that God is conjured into existence, not anything else, it seems.

So, no, don't pick my elaborations apart as anything more than a vain attempt to get you to arrive at the truth.

No, my dears, I have pointed out that Jesus said to Jews and Gentile alike in the crowd, that they should hand graven images of other gods over to the the majesty of those foreign gods because those gods ask for it, quite in violation of the commandments.

No matter what you say I have said, you need to look in the mirror now, and acknowledge that your lord an saviour encourages his entire flock to ignore two or more of the ten commandments and venerate foreign gods, thus proving beyond doubt, and using NOTHING but the Bible, that Jesus was an artificial construct.

You can keep trying to put words in my mouth, but you must face facts. Jesus is a Roman fabrication whose duty is was to get gentiles to pay taxes and obey Rome.
A real saviour wouldn't encourage the violation of commandments.

So, whatcha gonna do for your new religion? Buddhism is nice.

[JehovahsWitness]

My claim is that [...] Jesus advocated venerating these gods through the tribute they required.

• Jesus said to "Give Caesar's things to Caesar" he made no mention of the word "veneration" or "gods" so what Jesus actually "meant" is open to interpretation. You have presented your interpretation, that's perfectly fine, but that is all it is, not proven fact, merely how you personally believe a particular passage in the bible should be interprete.

Thanks for sharing but your believing something doesn't make it true, and your believing albeit with all your heart, that is how those words should be interpreted doesn't make you right.

JW

[Willum]

[Replying to post 52 by JehovahsWitness]

And more word-games attempting to discredit an elaboration.

Sorry, bub, words can be used in many ways, I have tried in many times and in many ways to explain - if you need to pick on the vagaries of language to prove God, you can't prove God, and should accept that...
Christians, what would it take?
That's what it should take.

Buddhism's nice, you should check it out.

[liamconnor]

[Replying to post 53 by Willum]


Once more:


it is worth pointing out that the Jewish law was treated like any other law: with interpretation. And this was all the more troublesome for the Law was not written for 1st c. Jews in subjugation, but to autonomous Jews in 1444. It is therefore inevitable that situations would arise not directly addressed in the Torah. Jews would therefore have to find a rule "by extension". For instance, the kosher practice of separating cheese from meat apparently goes back to the prohibition of boiling a kid in its mother's milk. That is not the leap I would have made, but it was made and apparently received wide acceptance.

I do not doubt that some Jews would have regarded possession of a denari to be idolatrous. The zealots come to mind. However, the assertion that all Jews held this position is false; the position that they should have, is an interpretation.

Apparently, our friend Willum is a Jewish zealot.

The fact remains, Willum, is that you and Jesus simply have different interpretations of Torah.

[liamconnor]

[Replying to post 51 by Willum]

Just curious, Willum,

IF Jesus were fabricated by Romans to encourage Jews to pay taxes, why in your estimate did Romans persecute Christians who continued to pay those taxes?

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 48 by JehovahsWitness]

Firstly, the Jews did not worship Roman coins.

No, nor do Jews sacrificing rams to Yahweh worship rams, what kind of ingenuous comment is that?

It is not "ingenuous, it is a statement of FACT.

• An "idol" is an image or representation of something that is made the object of worship. That is what an idol *is*. So for a Jew to be guilty of idolatry with a coin he would have to WORSHIP IT. Since Jews did not worship coins (or sheep) the Jewish people did not consider them idols. So to accuse a Jew of "blasphemy" or "idolatry" or "violating" the law because he is in possession or uses a coin with an engravement on it graven coins is historically inaccurate.

NOTE: The Ancient Egyptians worshipped sheep so for them the sacrificing of a sheep was an act of blasphemy. The Israelites did not worship sheep, so for them the sacrificing of a sheep was not blasphemouse. In short the Jews did not take their dictates about what was or was not idolatrous or blasphemous from Pagans, whether those pagans were Roman emperors or Egyptian Pharoahs.


Pointing out that Pagan Romans worshipped their coins or their Emperor is therefore moot.

[Willum]

[Replying to post 56 by JehovahsWitness]

I see the light is dawning, and the horror.

Yes, they were. So what?! The Mosaic law didn't prohibit having graven images [of false gods], it prohibited making them in order to "bow down" and worship them. The Jews didn't mint the coins themselves and they certainly did not bow down before them. So again... so what that coins were "graven images"?

No, they didn't bow down to those images of false gods, nor did they pay tribute to those false gods with those images.

It was very noble and true thing for the Jews to do: Incredible.
It also lead to the Diaspora.

Because it was religiously revolting to them, to tithe to abominable gods, their homeland was invaded, and they were dispersed, they reviled Jesus' direction, and look what happened.

But, you, Gentile, think it is OK.
?

Are we there yet?

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 56 by JehovahsWitness]

I see the light is dawning, and the horror.

Yes, they were. So what?! The Mosaic law didn't prohibit having graven images [of false gods], it prohibited making them in order to "bow down" and worship them. The Jews didn't mint the coins themselves and they certainly did not bow down before them. So again... so what that coins were "graven images"?

No, they didn't bow down to those images of false gods, nor did they pay tribute to those false gods with those images.

Are you suggesting that Jews bowed down to coins?

[Willum]

[Replying to post 56 by JehovahsWitness]

I see the light is dawning, and the horror.

Yes, they were. So what?! The Mosaic law didn't prohibit having graven images [of false gods], it prohibited making them in order to "bow down" and worship them. The Jews didn't mint the coins themselves and they certainly did not bow down before them. So again... so what that coins were "graven images"?

It was very noble and true thing for the Jews to do: Incredible.
It also lead to the Diaspora.

Because it was religiously revolting to them, to tithe to abominable gods, their homeland was invaded, and they were dispersed, they reviled Jesus' direction, and look what happened.

But, you, Gentile, think it is OK.
?

Are we there yet?

Are you suggesting that Jews bowed down to coins?

I am no longer suggesting anything more than you cherry-picking from the smallest selections so that you do not have to face the fact that Jesus was, at best, a false prophet, at worst an agent of Rome, and most probably, didn't exist at all, except as a comic-like character, "Tax-man:" Renderer of the god Caesar's taxes.

[liamconnor]

[Replying to post 51 by Willum]


You have dodged a question via PM? No, that will not work.

You don't think your theory needs to account for the fact that the very religion which the Romans fabricated for the Jews, was the same religion they persecuted, around the same time they invented it? They gave them a god; then got mad when they worshiped this god?! And apparently had never heard of this god they invented?!!

Sounds like the simpler and more historical solution is that Jews had various opinions regarding foreign taxes, as they had various views on the afterlife. You would have found welcome among the zealots. But that was only one sect (if indeed we can call it a sect) of Judaism.

Jesus, apparently, thought that things which had Caesar's face on it should go back to Caesar; like saying, "if he wants his trash back, by all means, give it back". Not everyone would agree with his interpretation, but there were no explicit laws against it.