Dan Barker's Easter Challenge (for PinSeeker)

Kapyong · Post by **Kapyong** » Tue Jul 24, 2018 5:23 pm

Gday all,

Here is Dan Barker's famous Easter Challenge for Christians :
https://ffrf.org/legacy/books/lfif/stone.php

'' I HAVE AN EASTER challenge for Christians. My challenge is simply this: tell me what happened on Easter. I am not asking for proof. My straightforward request is merely that Christians tell me exactly what happened on the day that their most important doctrine was born.

Believers should eagerly take up this challenge, since without the resurrection, there is no Christianity. Paul wrote, "And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain. Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not." (I Corinthians 15:14-15)

The conditions of the challenge are simple and reasonable. In each of the four Gospels, begin at Easter morning and read to the end of the book: Matthew 28, Mark 16, Luke 24, and John 20-21. Also read Acts 1:3-12 and Paul's tiny version of the story in I Corinthians 15:3-8. These 165 verses can be read in a few moments. Then, without omitting a single detail from these separate accounts, write a simple, chronological narrative of the events between the resurrection and the ascension: what happened first, second, and so on; who said what, when; and where these things happened. ''

Are you up for the challenge, PinSeeker ?
Or any other Christian here ?

Let's be clear -
your account cannot OMIT anything from those source accounts.

Kapyong

Kapyong · Post by **Kapyong** » Sat Jul 28, 2018 12:03 am

Gday all,

PinSeeker wrote: Perhaps I mis-conveyed my message. Let me clarify: There will be no debating me, as in, I'm not debating over what I've written. You can debate it with others all you want (as if you needed my okay to do that). I'm just not participating. Like I said, if you want me to clarify anything -- just as I'm doing here -- I will be happy to do that. But I'm not participating in any debate.

Uh-huh.

PinSeeker will simply declare victory,
and then refuse to discuss any details showing he is wrong.

Like he declared we have fragments of original MSS,
like he declared the NT has not changed,
like he declared Tekton answered the challenge.
etc. etc...

Good luck rikuamero, I look forward to your rebuttal - but we can already see PinSeeker will ignore it

Perchance PinSeeker will promote his new seventh version of Easter Sunday as the answer to Dan Barker, and apologists will believe it.

Kapyong

JehovahsWitness · Post by **JehovahsWitness** » Sat Jul 28, 2018 3:46 am

rikuoamero wrote:How did the disciples travel from Jerusalem to Galilee all in the one day? .

Hello there riku,

I'm afraid with this kind of discussion you will have to be extremely precise:

a) Which Jerusalem appearance are you referencing (book/chapter and verse(s))?
b) which subsequent Galilean appearance are you referencing (book/chapter and verse(s)))?
and...
c) exactly (direct quote) which words lin the text have lead you to believe they involved the same individuals on the same day (book/chapter and verse(s)))?

JW

rikuoamero · Post by **rikuoamero** » Sat Jul 28, 2018 5:39 am

[Replying to post 52 by JehovahsWitness]

Matthew 28:16
Luke 24:33.

I've checked, and rechecked. Both passages talk about meetings of the eleven disciples on the same day, but in two different places spread far enough apart that only by literally riding horses to death could they have made it; and since there is no reason for them to have done so...

JehovahsWitness · Post by **JehovahsWitness** » Sat Jul 28, 2018 5:55 am

rikuoamero wrote: [Replying to post 52 by JehovahsWitness]

Matthew 28:16
Luke 24:33.

I've checked, and rechecked. Both passages talk about meetings of the eleven disciples on the same day, but in two different places spread far enough apart that only by literally riding horses to death could they have made it; and since there is no reason for them to have done so...

Thank you for your references.

Now can you point me to the exact words that have lead you to believe the two separate events namely

a) the trip to Jerusalem from Emmaus by Cleopas and his companion (as reported by Luke) *
and ...
b) meeting of the 11 Aposltes at Galilee ( as reported by Mattew) happened on the same day.?

* While Luke indeed reports the Cleopas and his companion immediately after their encounter with Jesus left Emmaus to take the 7 mile (10 k?) journey back to Jerusalem where do you get that either Cleopas and his friend or the eleven Apostles travelled from Jerusalem to arrive in Galilee "the same day"?

rikuoamero · Post by **rikuoamero** » Sat Jul 28, 2018 6:09 am

JehovahsWitness wrote:
rikuoamero wrote: [Replying to post 52 by JehovahsWitness]

Matthew 28:16
Luke 24:33.

I've checked, and rechecked. Both passages talk about meetings of the eleven disciples on the same day, but in two different places spread far enough apart that only by literally riding horses to death could they have made it; and since there is no reason for them to have done so...
Thank you for your references.

Now can you point me to the exact words that have lead you to believe the two separate events namely

a) the trip to Jerusalem from Emmaus by Cleopas and his companion (as reported by Luke) *
and ...
b) meeting of the 11 Aposltes at Galilee as deported by Mattew) happened on the same day.?

* While Luke indeed reports the Cleopas and his companion immediately after their encounter with Jesus left Emmaus to take the 7 mile (10 k?) journey back to Jerusalem where do you get that either Cleopas and his frien or the eleven Aposlets travelled from Jerusalem to Galilee "the same day"?

It's a simple matter of reading the text, of letting Scripture interpret itself (something I've been told to do by Christians a lot!).
At the beginning of Matthew Chapter 28 (quotes taken from the NIV), it says
After the Sabbath, at dawn on the first day of the week, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary went to look at the tomb.
It then proceeds to tell us what happens on that specific day. We read the two women meeting the angel, the guards reporting to their masters (always wondered what the source for that could possibly be...) and then, the meeting of the disciples at Galilee, where some of them doubted.
At no point in the text of Matthew is there any indication that the part where the disciples meet with Jesus in Galilee takes place on a different day to the previous events (the meeting with the angel and the guards' report).

If we read Luke 24
On the first day of the week, very early in the morning, the women took the spices they had prepared and went to the tomb.
So the same day as Matthew 28.
Verse 13 says
Now that same day two of them were going to a village called Emmaus, about seven miles[a] from Jerusalem.
Verse 33
They got up and returned at once to Jerusalem. There they found the Eleven and those with them, assembled together 34 and saying, â€œIt is true! The Lord has risen and has appeared to Simon.â€�

At no point in the text of Luke does it say that the meeting of the disciples in Jerusalem takes place on a different day than is specified at Verse 1 and 13.
The only reason Christians say these meetings happened on different days is because of this irreconcilable conflict i.e. it is something not found within the text, but is an interpretation forced upon them externally.
If one reads Matthew 28 in isolation, with no knowledge of Luke 24, the reader understands that the meeting in Galilee happens on Easter Sunday.
If one reads Luke 24 in isolation, with no knowledge of Matthew 28, the reader has no reason to think the Jerusalem meeting is on a day other than Easter Sunday.

where do you get that either Cleopas and his friend or the eleven Apostles travelled from Jerusalem to arrive in Galilee "the same day"?

Crucially, that isn't mentioned in the texts, which is a death knell for the standard Christian narrative.
My talking about the disciples travelling between Jerusalem and Galilee in the same day, by riding their horses to death, is to point out that this is the only way the disciples could have made both meetings in the same day.
Any trained horse rider will tell you that you only do this if there is some great need, and there is no mention of such within the text. Since there is no motivation to kill their horses, we can safely conclude the disciples didn't make the journey, and since they didn't make the journey, we can safely conclude that both meetings could not have taken place as they are written.

JehovahsWitness · Post by **JehovahsWitness** » Sat Jul 28, 2018 6:14 am

[Replying to post 55 by rikuoamero]

Okay maybe I expressed myself badly, yes all the events you highlightred un RED seem to have happened in or around Jerusalem on the Sunday... my question however is which words for you place Galilee (Mat 28::16) and Jerusalem on the same day?

rikuoamero wrote:If one reads Matthew 28 in isolation, with no knowledge of Luke 24, the reader understands that the meeting in Galilee happens on Easter Sunday.

Some of the events described in Matthew chapter 28 evidently did take place on that first Sunday but my question is,how can you prove from what words in the text that ALL the events do. In short what indicate to you that VERSES 16-20 happened on the the same Sunday as verse 1?

JW

rikuoamero · Post by **rikuoamero** » Sat Jul 28, 2018 6:31 am

JehovahsWitness wrote: [Replying to post 55 by rikuoamero]

Okay so which words exactly for you place Galilee and Jerusalem on the same day?

Galilee is on the same day as identified by Verse 1 of Chapter 28 of Matthew. A reader who is reading Matthew Chapter 28 will read that it is Easter, the first day of the week, and proceed through the text, up to and including the part where Jesus meets with the eleven disciples.
At no point in his reading, will the reader think that the Galilee meeting is on a day different to the one identified by Verse 1. The only reason he may think so is if he reads Luke Chapter 24 and reads that the eleven disciples, on the same day, meet with Jesus in Jerusalem, and realise that the two books are talking about meetings on the same day, and so attempt to juggle the meetings in his head, to try and make sense of this conflict.
JW, it's a simple matter of reading the text. If I tell you a story about three things that happened, and I indicate at the start of my story that I'm talking about Wednesday the 18th of July, what reason would you have to think that suddenly I'm talking about Friday the 20th if I don't say such?
"It's Wednesday the 18th of July. I went out to meet my mother. I put gas in the car, did my grocery shopping. I saw the movie Incredibles 2".
Tell me...why would you, upon hearing that, think that I saw Incredibles 2 on Friday 20th? You have no reason to think that.

Even beyond the time problem, there is the fact that in both meetings, at least some of the disciples doubted. There is no reason for this to happen at both meetings, if one followed the other in succession.

JehovahsWitness · Post by **JehovahsWitness** » Sat Jul 28, 2018 6:35 am

rikuoamero wrote:
JehovahsWitness wrote: [Replying to post 55 by rikuoamero]

Okay so which words exactly for you place Galilee and Jerusalem on the same day?
Galilee is on the same day as identified by Verse 1 of Chapter 28 of Matthew.

That is your claim but can you prove it with any actual words in the text? It may be an ASSUMPTION (although given the distance between the two locations not necessarily a reasonable one) but is that what the writer said, as opposed to what you or a reader might assume?

In short did Matthew write that the eleven arrived in Galilee the same day they left Jerusalem and that it was that same Sunday?

rikuoamero · Post by **rikuoamero** » Sat Jul 28, 2018 7:04 am

JehovahsWitness wrote:
rikuoamero wrote:
JehovahsWitness wrote: [Replying to post 55 by rikuoamero]

Okay so which words exactly for you place Galilee and Jerusalem on the same day?
Galilee is on the same day as identified by Verse 1 of Chapter 28 of Matthew.
That is your claim but can you prove it with any actual words in the text? It may be an ASSUMPTION (although given the distance between the two locations not necessarily a reasonable one) but is that what the writer said, as opposed to what you or a reader might assume?

In short did Matthew write that the eleven arrived in Galilee the same day they left Jerusalem and that it was that same Sunday?

As I indicated in my previous posts, including giving the example of me telling a story about what happens on Wednesday 18th...what reason would you have to think that Matthew shifts to a different day on Verse 16?
Matthew tells us that it's Easter Sunday in Verse 1, and at no point in the rest of the chapter is there any indication that the author of Gospel Matthew is thinking of, or trying to tell his readers, that by Verse 16, he's now on a different day.
As I indicated in my previous posts the only reason YOU are thinking such is because you are already aware of Luke 24, of the meeting in Jerusalem on the same day.

Look at both texts just as plain texts, without any of your Christian beliefs in your head. Just look at them. Read them. Clear your mind of any preconceptions.
Then report to me that the texts, either of them, indicate that the meetings in Galilee and Jerusalem are on different days.
You won't be able to do so, and this is what Dan Barker means by his challenge. By forcing those who attempt his challenge to include all details from the relevant chapters, he is pointing out that doing so means saying, on record, that the disciples meet with Jesus in two different places on the same day that they could not possibly be at. Forget any teleportation powers Jesus may have had; the disciples certainly didn't have any.
Either the meetings happened on different days, and this means inserting a detail that is not indicated by the text and as such would not be a natural reading of them...or the two stories of the two meetings cannot both be true.

I can throw your challenge right back in your face. You say

In short did Matthew write that the eleven arrived in Galilee the same day they left Jerusalem

and I can respond with
"In short, did Matthew write that the disciples were in Galilee on a different day than Easter Sunday, the day he mentions in verse 1"?

JehovahsWitness · Post by **JehovahsWitness** » Sat Jul 28, 2018 7:08 am

[Replying to post 59 by rikuoamero]

Thank you for your post but I can't seem to find the answer to my question: Does the writer actually state that the events in Galilee took place on the same day as those in Jerusalem?

JW