The Golden Rule's problems

[Willum]

The Golden Rule, has its first known origins with the Goddess Ma'at and a story about unlawful claiming of property.
It was either taken from there, or rediscovered by Thales of Greece in about 500 BCE.

It is recapped in the Bible in Matthew 7:12,

Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you: Do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets

Or in the OT, Leviticus 19:18

You shall not take vengeance or bear a grudge against the sons of your own people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself: I am the Lord.

It sounds great on the surface, but is it the ultimate slippery slope for morality?

The key to recognize the problem is that we all think we are good.
The serial killers of the worlds, the rapist, the you name its of villainy are aware of and can probably justify their actions with the Golden Rule.

Premise of the topic: The Golden Rule sets every single individual as a standard for morality, and appeals to vanity to delude us into its being correct.
It seems like a recipe for disaster if you ask me.

Bad people will do bad things, because their personal version of the rule, allows it. They would say to themselves, "If I were this given person [whom I am doing bad things to], I would expect this kind of treatment from me."

So the topic of debate is obvious, is the Golden Rule the metric for behavior that it is employed as?

[1213]

Ok, fair enough. But if that was applied then why did God make rules that clearly do not follow the golden rule, like forcing rape victims to marry their attackers and that it's ok to own people and to beat slaves as long as they don't die within a couple of days?

I think it is possible that they follow the rule. For example, in the case of rape that is not adultery, women could have had things worse if it would not be as in the rule.

Bible gives the right to buy slaves from other nations. People who sell own people seem to be worse than Jews, therefore it can be better for the sold person to get out of own country. If Jews would live according to the law, slaves should have opportunity for freedom after 7 years. And Jews should also treat people well, because of the “love your neighbor� rule.

I don’t think Bible tells it is ok to beat slaves.

[Tcg]

If Jews would live according to the law, slaves should have opportunity for freedom after 7 years.

As I've already documented in post 41, this is not true of non-Hebrew slaves. They could be kept as permanent property.


Tcg

[Zzyzx]

.

I think it is possible that they follow the rule. For example, in the case of rape that is not adultery, women could have had things worse if it would not be as in the rule.

Imagine a god smart enough to make a rule saying, Don’t rape.

Imagine followers wise enough to not defend the idea of slavery.

Bible gives the right to buy slaves from other nations.

What compassion – as though people of other nations are animals to be owned.

People who sell own people seem to be worse than Jews, therefore it can be better for the sold person to get out of own country. If Jews would live according to the law, slaves should have opportunity for freedom after 7 years. And Jews should also treat people well, because of the “love your neighbor� rule.

Love your neighbor, but if he is from another nation you may keep him as a slave.

I don’t think Bible tells it is ok to beat slaves.

Exodus 21:20–21 says, “Anyone who beats their male or female slave with a rod must be punished if the slave dies as a direct result, but they are not to be punished if the slave recovers after a day or two, since the slave is their property.�

[Willum]

[Replying to post 50 by 1213]

Respectfully, 1213, you, don’t seem to know your Bible well enough to say you believe it.
You keep saying, “I don’t think the Bible says...� X, but it does. Slavery, rape, genocide, it is in there, with instructions.

[1213]

…As I've already documented in post 41, this is not true of non-Hebrew slaves. They could be kept as permanent property. …

It would be nice to hear opinion from a Jewish teacher. However, I think, if Jews obeyed God, they would have lived according to these:

He who is born in your house, and he who is bought with your money, must be circumcised. My covenant will be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant. The uncircumcised male who is not circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin, that soul shall be cut off from his people. He has broken my covenant."
Genesis 17:13-14

If your brother, a Hebrew man, or a Hebrew woman, be sold to you, and serve you six years; then in the seventh year you shall let him go free from you.
Deuteronomy 15:12

That means, even if the person was from other nation, he should have been freed after 6 years.

And also, this is one reason to let people to be free:

The word that came to Jeremiah from Yahweh, after that the king Zedekiah had made a covenant with all the people who were at Jerusalem, to proclaim liberty to them; that every man should let his man-servant, and every man his maid-servant, who is a Hebrew or a Hebrewess, go free; that none should make bondservants of them, to wit, of a Jew his brother. All the princes and all the people obeyed, who had entered into the covenant, that everyone should let his man-servant, and everyone his maid-servant, go free, that none should make bondservants of them any more; they obeyed, and let them go: but afterwards they turned, and caused the servants and the handmaids, whom they had let go free, to return, and brought them into subjection for servants and for handmaids. Therefore the word of Yahweh came to Jeremiah from Yahweh, saying, At the end of seven years you shall let go every man his brother who is a Hebrew, who has been sold to you, and has served you six years, you shall let him go free from you: but your fathers didn't listen to me, neither inclined their ear. You were now turned, and had done that which is right in my eyes, in proclaiming liberty every man to his neighbor; and you had made a covenant before me in the house which is called by my name: but you turned and profaned my name, and caused every man his servant, and every man his handmaid, whom you had let go free at their pleasure, to return; and you brought them into subjection, to be to you for servants and for handmaids. Therefore thus says Yahweh: you have not listened to me, to proclaim liberty, every man to his brother, and every man to his neighbor: behold, I proclaim to you a liberty, says Yahweh, to the sword, to the pestilence, and to the famine; and I will make you to be tossed back and forth among all the kingdoms of the earth.
Jeremiah 34:8-17

But, if you truly are against slavery, I hope you do something to end modern slavery. Everyone who must pay taxes is a slave.

[benchwarmer]

But, if you truly are against slavery, I hope you do something to end modern slavery. Everyone who must pay taxes is a slave.

You are clearly making no headway with the scripture, so now you are going to redefine slavery?

I pay taxes. I am free to move wherever I like, including to a new country that may or may not have taxes. Thus, I am not a piece of property of my country nor a slave as we have been discussing in this thread.

It's clear you are backed into a corner both needing to defend your precious scripture and at the same time not be seen as someone who thinks slavery is OK. It's quite a tap dance, but it's not working.

If you currently feel as though you are a slave in your country because you pay taxes, move somewhere else where there are none. Don't expect any social programs, roads, medical care, laws, police, firemen, or anything else that costs money to make society function. Write us a post card when you get there. Also notice that you weren't really a slave because you got to choose where you went and paying taxes had absolutely nothing to do with it.

[Tcg]

…As I've already documented in post 41, this is not true of non-Hebrew slaves. They could be kept as permanent property. …

It would be nice to hear opinion from a Jewish teacher.

In reference to Leviticus 25, Dr. Rabbi Zev Farber comments:

• This text emphasizes in a variety of different ways that an Israelite (the word Hebrew is not used) cannot be a slave:
  1.You may not treat your kinsman like a slave (v. 39).
  2.Your kinsman must be treated like a hired laborer (v. 40).
  3.Your kinsman, and his family, returns to his ancestral land on the Jubilee year (v. 41).
  4.God freed the Israelites from Egyptian bondage, so they cannot be slaves (v. 42).
  5.Do not mistreat them, if you fear God (v. 43).
  6.You may have permanent male and female slaves, but they must be non-Israelites (v. 44-46).[12]
  
  https://thetorah.com/hebrew-slave-exodu ... uteronomy/
  
  <bolding mine>

You've provided nothing to counter this clear teaching from Leviticus 25, in fact, your post doesn't even address it.

But, if you truly are against slavery, I hope you do something to end modern slavery. Everyone who must pay taxes is a slave.

We are not discussing my opinion of slavery nor yours, but rather that of the God of the Bible. In it, that God clearly shows favoritism to Israelites.


Tcg

[OnceConvinced]

I don’t think Bible tells it is ok to beat slaves.

It does. And they can even beat their indentured servants too.

Luke 12:47-48 (OK to beat indentured servants)
The servant who knows the master’s will and does not get ready or does not do what the master wants will be beaten with many blows. 48 But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked.

Exodus 21:20-21 (Ok to beat slaves just as long as they don't die within a couple of days. If they died after two days that's ok because the beating obviously wasn't bad enough to kill them quickly. They were obviously too weak to survive so wouldn't be much use to you anyway)
When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property.

[OnceConvinced]

. Everyone who must pay taxes is a slave.

When Jesus said in Matt 22:21 "Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's" he wasn't talking to slaves.

So no, that argument doesn't hold water. I go to work for 8 hours a day. I can quit anytime I like and nobody beats me to an inch of my life if I don't do my job properly. I'm not under any contract to work for 7 years. Nor was I ever forced into it.

In New Zealand we have many beneficiaries all on welfare, taking in an income. They don't work. However they still have to pay taxes based on that income they recieve. Would you consider them slaves too?

And what about those people in churches who tithe regularly? That's a form of church taxation. Are they slaves too?

[1213]

…I pay taxes. I am free to move wherever I like, including to a new country that may or may not have taxes…

I don’t know any country where taxes are voluntary. If you know, please tell, where it is possible to not pay taxes?

….It's clear you are backed into a corner both needing to defend your precious scripture and at the same time not be seen as someone who thinks slavery is OK. ….

Slavery seems to have many meanings and forms, but in any case, I am against slavery and that is why I think people should not be forced to pay taxes. One reason for me to be against it is the Jeremiah 34:8-17.