Unique concepts of Christianity

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Confused
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Unique concepts of Christianity

Post #1

Post by Confused »

I look at how Christianity has spread like wildfire since the time it became the "Official Religion" of Rome. Then I look at its scripture, its celebrations, its heritage and I have to wonder, what is so unique about it? Is there any portion of Christianity that is soley related to it alone? In other words, is there anything found within Christianity that doesn't have roots from an older religion? For example, the creation myth can also be found dating back to before the OT in the Epic of Gilgamesh. Many Christian traditions are celebrated on dates not coinciding with dates of the bible or they coincide with a previous religions/beliefs such as the birth of Christ was celebrate on Jan 6 in early Christian dates (http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_jcpa1.htm) as was the Alexandria God-man Aion, the death and resurrection of Christ dates coincide also with the Mithraites Attis death and resurrection. Rituals done for Christians have a history of being done in other religions as well:
Early Christians initiated converts in March and April by baptism. Mithraism initiated their new members at this time as well.
Early Christians were naked when they were baptized. After immersion, they then put on white clothing and a crown. They carried a candle and walked in a procession to a basilica. Followers of Mithra were also baptized naked, put on white clothing and a crown, and walked in a procession to the temple. However, they carried torches.
At Pentecost, the followers of Jesus were recorded as speaking in tongues. At Trophonius and Delos, the Pagan priestesses also spoke in tongues: They appeared to speak in such a way that each person present heard her words in the observer's own language.
An inscription to Mithras reads: "He who will not eat of my body and drink of my blood, so that he will be made on with me and I with him, the same shall not know salvation." 1 In John 6:53-54, Jesus is said to have repeated this theme: "...Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day." (KJV)
The Bible records that Jesus was crucified between two thieves. One went to heaven and the other to hell. In the Mithras mysteries, a common image showed Mithras flanked by two torchbearers, one on either side. One held a torch pointed upwards, the other downwards. This symbolized ascent to heaven or descent to hell.
In Attis, a bull was slaughtered while on a perforated platform. The animal's blood flowed down over an initiate who stood in a pit under the platform. The believer was then considered to have been "born again." Poor people could only afford a sheep, and so were literally washed in the blood of the lamb. This practice was interpreted symbolically by Christians.
There were many additional points of similarity between Mithraism and Christianity. 2 St. Augustine even declared that the priests of Mithraism worshiped the same God as he did: Followers of both religions celebrated a ritual meal involving bread. It was called a missa in Latin or mass in English.
Both the Catholic church and Mithraism had a total of seven sacraments.
Epiphany, JAN-6, was originally the festival in which the followers of Mithra celebrated the visit of the Magi to their newborn god-man. The Christian Church took it over in the 9th century.



This along with many other things leads me to search for anything in Christianity that may be considered unique to Christianity.
What we do for ourselves dies with us,
What we do for others and the world remains
and is immortal.

-Albert Pine
Never be bullied into silence.
Never allow yourself to be made a victim.
Accept no one persons definition of your life; define yourself.

-Harvey Fierstein

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Re: Unique concepts of Christianity

Post #51

Post by Confused »

katiej49 wrote:
Cogitoergosum wrote:
katiej49 wrote:Yes christian apologetics had to look hard for a difference with other religions. And finally they cam out with the GRACE BS.
For your infoin mythology a big number of gods have reached down and helped humans.
again i ask...sources and references for the idea that christianity borrowed from mithra. can you quote any mithran writings? of course mythology has a big number of gods. it is mythology though. never claims to be the Way, as does Jesus. never claims to be anything but...myth.
You know maybe mithra is not the best example to use as some say (erroneously) that the new testament was written before. Bu i suggest you read about osiris: God who died was resurrected, judges people after they die if they were good they spend eternity with osiris if they were bad a dog god eats their heart and they suffer for eternity. In his cult they serrve the sacramant, ale and bread representing the blood and flesh of osiris, as egyptians thought if they ate a god they would become like him. Do you find similarities with christianity there?
for references google Osiris and you will find plenty.
you telling me to Google it shows me you have no references or sources at all. I am asking for the mithran writings which would confirm it. do you have them? can you quote them?
[/quote]

You don't have to google anything. If you want to reply to a OP, you should at least have the courtesy to review the threads posts. It avoids all this wasted time.
What we do for ourselves dies with us,
What we do for others and the world remains
and is immortal.

-Albert Pine
Never be bullied into silence.
Never allow yourself to be made a victim.
Accept no one persons definition of your life; define yourself.

-Harvey Fierstein

katiej49

Re: Unique concepts of Christianity

Post #52

Post by katiej49 »

Cogitoergosum wrote:
katiej49 wrote: you telling me to Google it shows me you have no references or sources at all. I am asking for the mithran writings which would confirm it. do you have them? can you quote them?
Beati popere spiritu.
by saying to you all that you had to do was google it means there is so many writings about it it is nauseating. The fact that you did not do that already and want them posted for you, it means you have no interest in finding anything for yourself. Maybe you like to have people tell you what to do (for example the preist). Well despite the fact that i would rather have you read about osiris still this is a part on mithra, enjoy:

Mithra
Other spellings: Mitra, Mithras
God of Indo-Iranian religion. He was the god of light and wisdom, and appears also to have been the god of oath and mutual obligation.
The cult of Mithra originated from the Mesopotamian kingdom of Mitanni in the 2nd millennium BCE. Some theories reconstruct his origin to India, mentioned first time around 1400 BCE.
Mithra would become perhaps the most important religious export item throughout the next 1500 years, being passed on to every major civilization of the eastern Mediterranean Sea and deep into Europe, reaching as far as the British Isles. He was important in Zoroastrianism, with the Greeks and had his own dedicated cult within the Roman Empire. Many see Mithra as one of the models for Christianity's Jesus.
In its Assyrian and Babylonian versions in the 7th and 6th centuries BCE, Mithra was nothing less than the god of the sun. The dominating myth relating to Mithra was where he slain a divine bull, from which all good plants and animals came. This myth would follow him through all later developments.
Mithra had an annual celebration, relating to his birth. This occurred around winter solstice, and would at some time in history be fixed to December 25.
Mithra is mentioned in the Zoroastrian writings, although not by Zarathustra himself, as the chief yazata, which is a benevolent spirit. Zoroastrianism placed Mithra as a lesser deity than Ahura Mazda, but would in a later theological stage define him as Ahura Mazda's earthly representation. His function was to protect the souls and see them safe on their journey to Paradise.
Around 400 BCE the Zoroastrians provided for Mithra a mother, Anahita. In a temple from 200 BCE she was referred to as "The Immaculate Virgin Mother of Lord Mithra".
The Zoroastrian version of Mithra survived the longest in Armenia, which also became the first country to embrace Christianity as state religion.
The Greeks came from the 4th century to identify Mithra with the Greek sun god Helios. For the Greeks, the slaying of the bull was a central motive.
In its Roman shape, Mithra was named Mithras. From the 3nd century CE he became identified with the god Sol Invictus, which also incorporated the popular cult of Apollo. In 274, the cult of Sol Invictus was made official.
The Roman mythology of Mithras can only be reconstructed from surviving imagery and indirect accounts. Mithras is represented as closely associated with the creation of the cosmos. What is most possibly a depiction of Mithras, we see him being born from an egg while 12 signs of the zodiac surround him. In total, Mithraic iconography relates closely to heavenly objects.
Followers of Mithras were subject to strict regulations in their battle for the victory of light and truth.
In other accounts Mithras dies, is buried in a cave and then resurrected. The cave plays another important role as being the place where Mithras slain the sacred bull. The cave would in Roman Mithraism become the hall of congregation for members of the cult.

Encyclopedia of the orient
http://i-cias.com/e.o/mithra.htm

that is a link to an encyclopedia. i have one of those. you cant quote a single line of "mithran writings" or their scripture or holy book or whatever you might call it, because there isnt anything there to back up this position. the above was a cut and paste off an encyclopedias website, NOT mithran writings.

katiej49

Re: Unique concepts of Christianity

Post #53

Post by katiej49 »

Confused wrote:
katiej49 wrote:Yes christian apologetics had to look hard for a difference with other religions. And finally they cam out with the GRACE BS.
For your infoin mythology a big number of gods have reached down and helped humans.
again i ask...sources and references for the idea that christianity borrowed from mithra. can you quote any mithran writings? of course mythology has a big number of gods. it is mythology though. never claims to be the Way, as does Jesus. never claims to be anything but...myth.
And again, I will tell you to review the threads posts. Several were offered, not just mithraism.[/quote]

with respect i will point out i was asking for their references for their point of view. they could provide none. i will consider this discussion over since they have none and we are repeating ourselves. thanks.

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Re: Unique concepts of Christianity

Post #54

Post by Confused »

katiej49 wrote:
Confused wrote:
katiej49 wrote:Yes christian apologetics had to look hard for a difference with other religions. And finally they cam out with the GRACE BS.
For your infoin mythology a big number of gods have reached down and helped humans.
again i ask...sources and references for the idea that christianity borrowed from mithra. can you quote any mithran writings? of course mythology has a big number of gods. it is mythology though. never claims to be the Way, as does Jesus. never claims to be anything but...myth.
And again, I will tell you to review the threads posts. Several were offered, not just mithraism.
with respect i will point out i was asking for their references for their point of view. they could provide none. i will consider this discussion over since they have none and we are repeating ourselves. thanks.
[/quote]

Ok, bye now. Thanks for participating. :eyebrow:
What we do for ourselves dies with us,
What we do for others and the world remains
and is immortal.

-Albert Pine
Never be bullied into silence.
Never allow yourself to be made a victim.
Accept no one persons definition of your life; define yourself.

-Harvey Fierstein

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Re: Unique concepts of Christianity

Post #55

Post by Cogitoergosum »

katiej49 wrote:
Confused wrote:
katiej49 wrote:Yes christian apologetics had to look hard for a difference with other religions. And finally they cam out with the GRACE BS.
For your infoin mythology a big number of gods have reached down and helped humans.
again i ask...sources and references for the idea that christianity borrowed from mithra. can you quote any mithran writings? of course mythology has a big number of gods. it is mythology though. never claims to be the Way, as does Jesus. never claims to be anything but...myth.
And again, I will tell you to review the threads posts. Several were offered, not just mithraism.
with respect i will point out i was asking for their references for their point of view. they could provide none. i will consider this discussion over since they have none and we are repeating ourselves. thanks.[/quote]

Provide me with a link to the original writings of the gospel, not the translated version, i want the original copy in greek. The encyclopedia wrote what it wrote because this is KNOWN about mithraism, you using the defence that i want to see the original document is a poor attempt (used by many christian apologetics) to undermine the obvious and hide behind your finger.
but your lack of curiosity is not surprising, people are brainwashed this way. Maybe you should ask the priest what you should think.
Beati paupere spiritu

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Re: Unique concepts of Christianity

Post #56

Post by Goat »

Easyrider wrote:
Confused wrote: I make no assertion that ALL of Christianity's concepts are revised versions of those from Mithraism alone. I do use that one as an example, but if you have read through these threads you should have found many other ancient religions and texts that it mimics, and all predate Christianity, most predate even the Torah (Judaism).
There may well be some simularities. A question for you is which similar ones were passed down from the lineage of Adam via God's spiritual influence?

But the Biblical record is clear that Judaism developed independently from pagan religions. It was the Biblical God himself who directed and influenced Adam down to the Patriarchs. It was God who gave the Law to Moses. It was God who told the Jews not to engage in unbiblical pagan beliefs and practices. If the pagans were the ones in charge then it is highly doubtful they would have allowed a theology (Judaism) in which pagan beliefs and influences were forbidden. And it was Judaism, not other pagan religions, in which Christianity has its roots.

It is not enough for you to say there are simularities. I think you need to document the Jews adopting specific pagan beliefs that make up their traditional Biblical teachings. Find a simularity and identify who and when it was supposedly copied into Judaism.
Yes, as did Christainity did in it's early days. The Gentile converts to early Christianity brought their pagan ideas into it.

Easyrider

Re: Unique concepts of Christianity

Post #57

Post by Easyrider »

goat wrote:The Gentile converts to early Christianity brought their pagan ideas into it.
Was the New Testament Influenced by Pagan Beliefs?

http://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/tex ... 0169a.html

On the other hand, we know your Reform Judaism contains a healthy mixture of humanism & political correctness, paganism, and even agnosticism.

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Re: Unique concepts of Christianity

Post #58

Post by Goat »

Easyrider wrote:
goat wrote:The Gentile converts to early Christianity brought their pagan ideas into it.
Was the New Testament Influenced by Pagan Beliefs?

http://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/tex ... 0169a.html

On the other hand, we know your Reform Judaism contains a healthy mixture of humanism & political correctness, paganism, and even agnosticism.
Yes, we know that the evaganlistic Christian will go to any lenghts to deny the truth that many of their beliefs are pagan in origin. Of course, Judiasm has been influenced by other religions. It has even been influenced by Christianity. And there is nothing wrong with a good mixture of humanism. It certainly beats the denial, and the rigid bigotry of much of the more conservative Christian sects.

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Re: Unique concepts of Christianity

Post #59

Post by Cathar1950 »

goat wrote:
Easyrider wrote:
goat wrote:The Gentile converts to early Christianity brought their pagan ideas into it.
Was the New Testament Influenced by Pagan Beliefs?

http://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/tex ... 0169a.html

On the other hand, we know your Reform Judaism contains a healthy mixture of humanism & political correctness, paganism, and even agnosticism.
Yes, we know that the evaganlistic Christian will go to any lenghts to deny the truth that many of their beliefs are pagan in origin. Of course, Judiasm has been influenced by other religions. It has even been influenced by Christianity. And there is nothing wrong with a good mixture of humanism. It certainly beats the denial, and the rigid bigotry of much of the more conservative Christian sects.
Influenced by pagan beliefs is not the same as copied them.
Much of the NT is also a rewrite of ideas and stories from the Hebrew writings. Many scholars can see the similarities in Greek and Hebrew myths and there might be a good reason. They both go back to Babylonian and Sumerian myths and stories. Influence is not always bad.
I can see why some can even remain “true Christians” and not believe the resurrection was real or historical as it is a metaphor. I am sitting here looking at a book with pictures of figures, god and goddesses all having similarities with Jewish and Christian myths going back to one or two thousand years and some of the stuff is written in stone.
I don’t think it diminishes the worth of a religious tradition to be human and to include the past. Even if you found some trivial uniqueness it would not make the gospel stories true or factual.

Easyrider

Re: Unique concepts of Christianity

Post #60

Post by Easyrider »

goat wrote:
...Of course, Judiasm has been influenced by other religions. It has even been influenced by Christianity. And there is nothing wrong with a good mixture of humanism. It certainly beats the denial, and the rigid bigotry of much of the more conservative Christian sects.
You don't know what you're talking about on the latter. You get homeless and they'll help you out.

Regarding your Reform Judaism...

A Reform Jew discusses his religion:

One of the great problems of Reform Judaism, and I am a Reform Jew, is its lack of definition….

Reform Judaism correctly modified a Judaism that was only dependent on belief and added the mental tool of reason to the religion. Reason has all but destroyed faith or belief because it has concluded that all religious truths, including the Revalation at Sinai, the major source of Jewish ethical and ritual law, must be evaluated through logic and these truths or beliefs have only a relative authenticity,i.e., they must be evaluated with a consideration of the historical, social, economic and psychiologocal persectives of the ancient Jews. As a result of this process, the Reform Jew has eliminated all if not almost all binding Jewish Law, and therfore, all or almost all binding behavior.

The Reform Jew identifies himself primarily on the basis of belief. He believes that Judaism authenticates ethics. Yet Christians, agnostics and aetheists appear to be ethical, and thus Jewish mandated ethiocal behavior does not differentiate and define the Jew.

Many Reform Jews believe that "God is in us" which is denounced by traditional Judaism; the traditional concept of God is One who is separate from us and transcends the natural world….At the recent Reform Convention, the President of the Reform Judaism announced his intent that Reform Jews should re-embrace spirituality.

Reform Judaism is by far the largest branch of Judaism, and the loss of membership in Reform Judaism is staggering. Reform Judaism which constitutes the largest segment of liberal Jews needs help…It recognizes that it has a problem. The rabbis have recognized the problem for several decades, but they have been unable or unwilling to solve it.

http://www.mljewish.org/cgi-bin/retriev ... ORMAT=html

Religious zealots, arranged right to left

As far as the news media are concerned, there is no religious left, only the religious right and "mainstream" denominations — and, of course, the religious right is regularly described as bigoted, narrow-minded and intolerant, not to mention a threat to the separation of church and state.

Yet, within Christianity and Judaism, the left is very much alive, and in Judaism it is dominant. This leftism was made apparent last month in Houston at the biennial convention of the Union for Reform Judaism, the largest of Judaism's denominations.

Let's begin with religious intrusion into politics. This is probably the least defensible charge thrown at the religious right. First, religious individuals and groups have as much right to attempt to influence society and state as secular individuals and groups do. Second, the religious left is at least as active in attempting to influence governmental policies as the religious right. Perhaps more so.

Take, for example, the Reform convention's resolution opposing the nomination of Judge Samuel A. Alito Jr. to the Supreme Court (even before hearings have begun). I am unaware of any Orthodox Jewish convention having passed a resolution against the nomination of secular or liberal judges to the Supreme Court.

A second example was the convention's resolution calling for "full voting rights" for the citizens of the District of Columbia. Now, why exactly is that not religious intrusion into politics? And how is that different than when Southern Baptists passed a resolution calling on the United States to keep marriage defined as between a man and a woman?

Such intellectual inconsistencies continued in the keynote address by the head of Reform Jewry, Rabbi Eric Yoffie. The rabbi reserved a portion of his address for an attack on the "religious right," whose leaders, he said, believe that "unless you attend my church, accept my God and study my sacred text, you cannot be a moral person."

As I do not believe Rabbi Yoffie knowingly told a lie, I can only assume that he did not mean what he said. His statement is false. I've never heard of a single mainstream conservative, fundamentalist or right-wing Christian who has said or even hinted at this. It is true that the Christian right largely believes that one must believe in Jesus Christ in order to attain salvation. But "saved" is hardly the same as "moral." Christian leaders acknowledge that there are moral non-Christians.

What we have here is left-wing projection: It is the left that believes that if you do not adhere to its values and politics, you cannot be a moral person. Howard Dean recently said that Democrats care if children go to bed hungry at night and Republicans don't.

Rabbi Yoffie also said that "we need beware of the zealots who want to make their religion the religion of everyone else." But isn't that exactly what liberals wish to do — make everyone liberal? Why, pray tell, are liberals who want everyone to be liberal considered moral and moderate, but Christians who want everyone to be Christian considered "zealots" and "bigots"?

Perhaps the most remarkable aspect of the Jewish religious left's convention was how clearly it revealed the supremacy of leftist concerns over Jewish ones. History will record that a month after the Islamic Republic of Iran called for the annihilation of the Jewish state, 5,000 Reform Jews passed resolutions calling for District of Columbia voting rights and "workers' rights" but none about a call for what would amount to another Holocaust or about Islamic anti-Semitism generally, the greatest eruption of Jew-hatred since Nazism. History will likewise also note that two years after the United States made war on a bloodthirsty tyrant who paid the families of murderers of Jews $25,000 each, Reform Judaism passed a resolution condemning that war.

As an active member for 15 years of a Reform synagogue that I love, I can only take this as another sign that the movement has been taken over by people whom one rarely hears about — the religious left.

http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/sun ... commentary (L.A. Times)

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