They should have known better

[achilles12604]

.
The greatest event in history supposedly occurs, a thirty year visit from the “creator of the universe”, and believers can cite only church preachings and ONE outside source that is known to be at least partially false.

Something doesn’t ring true. Any discerning person should question the validity of and support for the story.

Agreed. But remember we are 2000 years out of date. Those discerning people with the best vantage point were those living in the area at the time. Strangely enough we see a couple of unduplicated phenomina occur right then.

1) The Jews who historically didn't change their core religious beliefs despite being split up, conqured, and accosted for several thousand years suddenly are divided and believing in notions which before this time had never been heard of, much less accepted.

2) Christianity suddenly errupts very shortly after it's leader is murdered. This is unique in world history as far as I know. I am unaware of any other religion surviving much less exploding after being persecuted and having their leader of only a couple years assassinated. All of the other religions who fit this pattern died off very shortly after the leader.

3) The people living in the area, who would have had the ability to know fact from legend, began believing in a very Jewish risen Jesus within just a year or so after Jesus murder (Nazarenes).



Now these things are unique especially because these people had the unique ability to KNOW BETTER. If you compare Christianity to Islam, Christianity claims that Jesus performed miracles and rose from the grave in full view of the public. Compare that with Muhammad who was totally alone in a cave and then only he came out and reported what he did. No one else was around to protest any lies.

This is a critical difference and it has major implications for the falsfiability and therefore validity of the religion in question.

This transaction occurred in the Was the TF inserted thread. And I find it to be a topic unto itself.


Is my view on this matter sound? I find that Christianity is unique because it is the only religion which allowed itself to be falsifiable to the original believers. Jesus didn't go into a cave and later come out to tell everyone what an angel said to him. He taught in the streets. His ministry was very public. And as such, the claims which followed very shortly after him would have been easily disproven.

So doesn't common sense tell us that if someone is making outrageous claims like those of miracles and rising from the dead, that the people right then and there would have been able to disprove and ignore the raving lunatic? How on earth could Christianity have convinced one of the world most stubborn religious people (the Jews) to adopt new ideas, and move into a totally new and different religion when their totally outrageous and absurd claims were so blatently and obviously false?

They should have known better.


Please evaluate the above 3 points of uniqueness and comment. Am I off my rocker? Are there other religions which can boast the same unique situations as Christianity? Do these situations have an impact on the verifiability and validity of Christian claims as a whole?

[Goat]

Pontius palate. That would be the smoking gun. But then anybody in his administration. Merchants. In fact anything written by a disinterested parties within 5 years would be pretty impressive. reports that place the resurrection story to within a year of so of events. A couple of reports 70+ years later or whatever are the actual dates is just too thin. Too late and too open for contamination from Christian PR. Something within just a few years would tell us the resurrection story was at least originated much closer to the time, and reduces the possibility of embellishments from the like of Paul and others.

Pilate?

Since when did Roman Governors travel into the heart of the Marketplace to watch a Jewish soothsayer? For that matter when did they travel into the Market at all? And even if he did happen to travel to the Market, and he happened to see Jesus, and he happened to care enough to stop and watch yet another zealot leader, why would he bother to write it down?

Since when did Roman Governors meet with a condemed prisoner and proclaim them innocent, but execute them anyway?

On the other hand, we DO have a record of Pilate taking an active interest in a messanic figure, by his purposeful capture and execution of the Samaritan messiah in 36 c.e.

[achilles12604]

Pontius palate. That would be the smoking gun. But then anybody in his administration. Merchants. In fact anything written by a disinterested parties within 5 years would be pretty impressive. reports that place the resurrection story to within a year of so of events. A couple of reports 70+ years later or whatever are the actual dates is just too thin. Too late and too open for contamination from Christian PR. Something within just a few years would tell us the resurrection story was at least originated much closer to the time, and reduces the possibility of embellishments from the like of Paul and others.

Pilate?

Since when did Roman Governors travel into the heart of the Marketplace to watch a Jewish soothsayer? For that matter when did they travel into the Market at all? And even if he did happen to travel to the Market, and he happened to see Jesus, and he happened to care enough to stop and watch yet another zealot leader, why would he bother to write it down?

Since when did Roman Governors meet with a condemed prisoner and proclaim them innocent, but execute them anyway?

On the other hand, we DO have a record of Pilate taking an active interest in a messanic figure, by his purposeful capture and execution of the Samaritan messiah in 36 c.e.

So let me get this straight . . .


We are looking for a non-Christian figure, who would have witnessed Jesus actions, found them amazing, and written them down but still maintained his disbelief.

We find a homicidal Governor who is bent on killing anyone even remotely like Jesus . . . .and then you want me to answer why this guy didn't record any observations documenting his amazing deeds?

Am I missing something here?

[Goat]

Pontius palate. That would be the smoking gun. But then anybody in his administration. Merchants. In fact anything written by a disinterested parties within 5 years would be pretty impressive. reports that place the resurrection story to within a year of so of events. A couple of reports 70+ years later or whatever are the actual dates is just too thin. Too late and too open for contamination from Christian PR. Something within just a few years would tell us the resurrection story was at least originated much closer to the time, and reduces the possibility of embellishments from the like of Paul and others.

Pilate?

Since when did Roman Governors travel into the heart of the Marketplace to watch a Jewish soothsayer? For that matter when did they travel into the Market at all? And even if he did happen to travel to the Market, and he happened to see Jesus, and he happened to care enough to stop and watch yet another zealot leader, why would he bother to write it down?

Since when did Roman Governors meet with a condemed prisoner and proclaim them innocent, but execute them anyway?

On the other hand, we DO have a record of Pilate taking an active interest in a messanic figure, by his purposeful capture and execution of the Samaritan messiah in 36 c.e.

So let me get this straight . . .


We are looking for a non-Christian figure, who would have witnessed Jesus actions, found them amazing, and written them down but still maintained his disbelief.

We find a homicidal Governor who is bent on killing anyone even remotely like Jesus . . . .and then you want me to answer why this guy didn't record any observations documenting his amazing deeds?

Am I missing something here?

Yep. you certainly are. ALl we need is the report that all the Jews were going around following this fellow, even if they thought the 'miracles' were supersition and fraud.

[achilles12604]

Pontius palate. That would be the smoking gun. But then anybody in his administration. Merchants. In fact anything written by a disinterested parties within 5 years would be pretty impressive. reports that place the resurrection story to within a year of so of events. A couple of reports 70+ years later or whatever are the actual dates is just too thin. Too late and too open for contamination from Christian PR. Something within just a few years would tell us the resurrection story was at least originated much closer to the time, and reduces the possibility of embellishments from the like of Paul and others.

Pilate?

Since when did Roman Governors travel into the heart of the Marketplace to watch a Jewish soothsayer? For that matter when did they travel into the Market at all? And even if he did happen to travel to the Market, and he happened to see Jesus, and he happened to care enough to stop and watch yet another zealot leader, why would he bother to write it down?

Since when did Roman Governors meet with a condemed prisoner and proclaim them innocent, but execute them anyway?

On the other hand, we DO have a record of Pilate taking an active interest in a messanic figure, by his purposeful capture and execution of the Samaritan messiah in 36 c.e.

So let me get this straight . . .


We are looking for a non-Christian figure, who would have witnessed Jesus actions, found them amazing, and written them down but still maintained his disbelief.

We find a homicidal Governor who is bent on killing anyone even remotely like Jesus . . . .and then you want me to answer why this guy didn't record any observations documenting his amazing deeds?

Am I missing something here?

Yep. you certainly are. ALl we need is the report that all the Jews were going around following this fellow, even if they thought the 'miracles' were supersition and fraud.

So tell me . . . what writings of Pilate DO we have? Based on this criteria, he should have written about the Egyptian too. And he should have written about the "messiah" he had killed in 36CE.

Please pull out these writings for me so that I know that Pilate wrote about . . . how did you put it . . . . Oh yea, this guy . . .

the Jews were going around following this fellow, even if they thought the 'miracles' were supersition and fraud.

[Goat]

Pontius palate. That would be the smoking gun. But then anybody in his administration. Merchants. In fact anything written by a disinterested parties within 5 years would be pretty impressive. reports that place the resurrection story to within a year of so of events. A couple of reports 70+ years later or whatever are the actual dates is just too thin. Too late and too open for contamination from Christian PR. Something within just a few years would tell us the resurrection story was at least originated much closer to the time, and reduces the possibility of embellishments from the like of Paul and others.

Pilate?

Since when did Roman Governors travel into the heart of the Marketplace to watch a Jewish soothsayer? For that matter when did they travel into the Market at all? And even if he did happen to travel to the Market, and he happened to see Jesus, and he happened to care enough to stop and watch yet another zealot leader, why would he bother to write it down?

Since when did Roman Governors meet with a condemed prisoner and proclaim them innocent, but execute them anyway?

On the other hand, we DO have a record of Pilate taking an active interest in a messanic figure, by his purposeful capture and execution of the Samaritan messiah in 36 c.e.

So let me get this straight . . .


We are looking for a non-Christian figure, who would have witnessed Jesus actions, found them amazing, and written them down but still maintained his disbelief.

We find a homicidal Governor who is bent on killing anyone even remotely like Jesus . . . .and then you want me to answer why this guy didn't record any observations documenting his amazing deeds?

Am I missing something here?

Yep. you certainly are. ALl we need is the report that all the Jews were going around following this fellow, even if they thought the 'miracles' were supersition and fraud.

So tell me . . . what writings of Pilate DO we have? Based on this criteria, he should have written about the Egyptian too. And he should have written about the "messiah" he had killed in 36CE.

Please pull out these writings for me so that I know that Pilate wrote about . . . how did you put it . . . . Oh yea, this guy . . .

the Jews were going around following this fellow, even if they thought the 'miracles' were supersition and fraud.

Right now, none. We DO contemporary writers from Jerusalem from that time period. It doesn't have to be Pilate.. it coudl have been philo, it could have been another one. . But, we have none.

[achilles12604]

Pontius palate. That would be the smoking gun. But then anybody in his administration. Merchants. In fact anything written by a disinterested parties within 5 years would be pretty impressive. reports that place the resurrection story to within a year of so of events. A couple of reports 70+ years later or whatever are the actual dates is just too thin. Too late and too open for contamination from Christian PR. Something within just a few years would tell us the resurrection story was at least originated much closer to the time, and reduces the possibility of embellishments from the like of Paul and others.

Pilate?

Since when did Roman Governors travel into the heart of the Marketplace to watch a Jewish soothsayer? For that matter when did they travel into the Market at all? And even if he did happen to travel to the Market, and he happened to see Jesus, and he happened to care enough to stop and watch yet another zealot leader, why would he bother to write it down?

Since when did Roman Governors meet with a condemed prisoner and proclaim them innocent, but execute them anyway?

On the other hand, we DO have a record of Pilate taking an active interest in a messanic figure, by his purposeful capture and execution of the Samaritan messiah in 36 c.e.

So let me get this straight . . .


We are looking for a non-Christian figure, who would have witnessed Jesus actions, found them amazing, and written them down but still maintained his disbelief.

We find a homicidal Governor who is bent on killing anyone even remotely like Jesus . . . .and then you want me to answer why this guy didn't record any observations documenting his amazing deeds?

Am I missing something here?

Yep. you certainly are. ALl we need is the report that all the Jews were going around following this fellow, even if they thought the 'miracles' were supersition and fraud.

So tell me . . . what writings of Pilate DO we have? Based on this criteria, he should have written about the Egyptian too. And he should have written about the "messiah" he had killed in 36CE.

Please pull out these writings for me so that I know that Pilate wrote about . . . how did you put it . . . . Oh yea, this guy . . .

the Jews were going around following this fellow, even if they thought the 'miracles' were supersition and fraud.

Right now, none. We DO contemporary writers from Jerusalem from that time period. It doesn't have to be Pilate.. it coudl have been philo, it could have been another one. . But, we have none.

Philo? You mean the same Philo who failed to write about the prominate Jewish leader in Jerusalem old Gil?

And others huh?

What other ones? Names. so far you have named a Roman Gov. who had zero interest in writing about the people he was trying to kill off (big surprise) and Philo, who also failed to write about other significant religious leaders, even if they were part of his own beliefs.

Anyone else?

[Goat]

Pontius palate. That would be the smoking gun. But then anybody in his administration. Merchants. In fact anything written by a disinterested parties within 5 years would be pretty impressive. reports that place the resurrection story to within a year of so of events. A couple of reports 70+ years later or whatever are the actual dates is just too thin. Too late and too open for contamination from Christian PR. Something within just a few years would tell us the resurrection story was at least originated much closer to the time, and reduces the possibility of embellishments from the like of Paul and others.

Pilate?

Since when did Roman Governors travel into the heart of the Marketplace to watch a Jewish soothsayer? For that matter when did they travel into the Market at all? And even if he did happen to travel to the Market, and he happened to see Jesus, and he happened to care enough to stop and watch yet another zealot leader, why would he bother to write it down?

Since when did Roman Governors meet with a condemed prisoner and proclaim them innocent, but execute them anyway?

On the other hand, we DO have a record of Pilate taking an active interest in a messanic figure, by his purposeful capture and execution of the Samaritan messiah in 36 c.e.

So let me get this straight . . .


We are looking for a non-Christian figure, who would have witnessed Jesus actions, found them amazing, and written them down but still maintained his disbelief.

We find a homicidal Governor who is bent on killing anyone even remotely like Jesus . . . .and then you want me to answer why this guy didn't record any observations documenting his amazing deeds?

Am I missing something here?

Yep. you certainly are. ALl we need is the report that all the Jews were going around following this fellow, even if they thought the 'miracles' were supersition and fraud.

So tell me . . . what writings of Pilate DO we have? Based on this criteria, he should have written about the Egyptian too. And he should have written about the "messiah" he had killed in 36CE.

Please pull out these writings for me so that I know that Pilate wrote about . . . how did you put it . . . . Oh yea, this guy . . .

the Jews were going around following this fellow, even if they thought the 'miracles' were supersition and fraud.

Right now, none. We DO contemporary writers from Jerusalem from that time period. It doesn't have to be Pilate.. it coudl have been philo, it could have been another one. . But, we have none.

Philo? You mean the same Philo who failed to write about the prominate Jewish leader in Jerusalem old Gil?

And others huh?

What other ones? Names. so far you have named a Roman Gov. who had zero interest in writing about the people he was trying to kill off (big surprise) and Philo, who also failed to write about other significant religious leaders, even if they were part of his own beliefs.

Anyone else?

Bringing up straw men again huh? I said ANYONE, and I do mean ANYONE.

It could have been the essene's, if there was a dead sea scroll that mentioned Jesus it would be FASCINATING. .. don't you agree? Or, anybody else. Anybody outside of the Christian scriptures and before the destruction of the temple. .. it appears to me beliefs got warped after the temple was destroyed.

[achilles12604]

Pontius palate. That would be the smoking gun. But then anybody in his administration. Merchants. In fact anything written by a disinterested parties within 5 years would be pretty impressive. reports that place the resurrection story to within a year of so of events. A couple of reports 70+ years later or whatever are the actual dates is just too thin. Too late and too open for contamination from Christian PR. Something within just a few years would tell us the resurrection story was at least originated much closer to the time, and reduces the possibility of embellishments from the like of Paul and others.

Pilate?

Since when did Roman Governors travel into the heart of the Marketplace to watch a Jewish soothsayer? For that matter when did they travel into the Market at all? And even if he did happen to travel to the Market, and he happened to see Jesus, and he happened to care enough to stop and watch yet another zealot leader, why would he bother to write it down?

Since when did Roman Governors meet with a condemed prisoner and proclaim them innocent, but execute them anyway?

On the other hand, we DO have a record of Pilate taking an active interest in a messanic figure, by his purposeful capture and execution of the Samaritan messiah in 36 c.e.

So let me get this straight . . .


We are looking for a non-Christian figure, who would have witnessed Jesus actions, found them amazing, and written them down but still maintained his disbelief.

We find a homicidal Governor who is bent on killing anyone even remotely like Jesus . . . .and then you want me to answer why this guy didn't record any observations documenting his amazing deeds?

Am I missing something here?

Yep. you certainly are. ALl we need is the report that all the Jews were going around following this fellow, even if they thought the 'miracles' were supersition and fraud.

So tell me . . . what writings of Pilate DO we have? Based on this criteria, he should have written about the Egyptian too. And he should have written about the "messiah" he had killed in 36CE.

Please pull out these writings for me so that I know that Pilate wrote about . . . how did you put it . . . . Oh yea, this guy . . .

the Jews were going around following this fellow, even if they thought the 'miracles' were supersition and fraud.

Right now, none. We DO contemporary writers from Jerusalem from that time period. It doesn't have to be Pilate.. it coudl have been philo, it could have been another one. . But, we have none.

Philo? You mean the same Philo who failed to write about the prominate Jewish leader in Jerusalem old Gil?

And others huh?

What other ones? Names. so far you have named a Roman Gov. who had zero interest in writing about the people he was trying to kill off (big surprise) and Philo, who also failed to write about other significant religious leaders, even if they were part of his own beliefs.

Anyone else?

Bringing up straw men again huh? I said ANYONE, and I do mean ANYONE.

It could have been the essene's, if there was a dead sea scroll that mentioned Jesus it would be FASCINATING. .. don't you agree? Or, anybody else. Anybody outside of the Christian scriptures and before the destruction of the temple. .. it appears to me beliefs got warped after the temple was destroyed.

Oh . . . you mean like . . .

And then many sick and maimed came to Jesus, asking him. "if you know all things, tell us, why do we suffer with these grievous plagues? Why are we not whole like other men? Master, heal us, that we too may be made strong, and need abide no longer in our misery. We know that you have it in your power to heal all manner of disease. Free us from Satan and from all his great afflictions. Master, have compassion on us."

And Jesus answered- "Happy are you that you hunger for the truth, for I will satisfy you with the bread of wisdom. Happy are you, that you knock, for I will open to you the door of life. Happy are you, that you would cast off the power of Satan, for I will lead you into the kincdom of our Mother's angels, where the power of Satan cannot enter."

http://www.essene.com/GospelOfPeace/peace1.html

Or maybe . . .

And seeing the multitudes, Jesus went up into a mountain, and his disciples came unto him, and all those who hungered for his words. And seeing them gathered, he opened his mouth and taught them, saying:

"Peace I bring to thee, my children,

The Sevenfold Peace

Of the Earthly Mother

And the Heavenly Father.

Peace I bring to thy body,

http://www.essene.com/GospelOfPeace/pea ... nFoldPeace

And it came to pass that Jesus gathered the Sons of Light by the shore of the river, to reveal to them that which had been hidden; for the space of seven years had passed, and each one was ripe for truth, as the flower opens from the bud when the angels of sun and water bring it to its time of blossoming.

And all of them were unlike one to the other, for some were of age, and some had still the dew of youth on their cheeks, and some had been raised according to the traditions of their fathers, and others knew not who their father and mother had been. But all shared in a clearness of eye and a suppleness of body, for these were signs that for seven years they had walked with the angels of the Earthly Mother and obeyed her laws. And for seven years the unknown angels of the Heavenly Father had taught them through their sleeping hours. And now was the day come when they would enter the Brotherhood of the Elect and learn the hidden teachings of the Elders, even those of Enoch and before.

http://www.essene.com/GospelOfPeace/peace4.html



Things like these?

Yea. I do find them fascinating. What was your point again?

[Goat]

Pontius palate. That would be the smoking gun. But then anybody in his administration. Merchants. In fact anything written by a disinterested parties within 5 years would be pretty impressive. reports that place the resurrection story to within a year of so of events. A couple of reports 70+ years later or whatever are the actual dates is just too thin. Too late and too open for contamination from Christian PR. Something within just a few years would tell us the resurrection story was at least originated much closer to the time, and reduces the possibility of embellishments from the like of Paul and others.

Pilate?

Since when did Roman Governors travel into the heart of the Marketplace to watch a Jewish soothsayer? For that matter when did they travel into the Market at all? And even if he did happen to travel to the Market, and he happened to see Jesus, and he happened to care enough to stop and watch yet another zealot leader, why would he bother to write it down?

Since when did Roman Governors meet with a condemed prisoner and proclaim them innocent, but execute them anyway?

On the other hand, we DO have a record of Pilate taking an active interest in a messanic figure, by his purposeful capture and execution of the Samaritan messiah in 36 c.e.

So let me get this straight . . .


We are looking for a non-Christian figure, who would have witnessed Jesus actions, found them amazing, and written them down but still maintained his disbelief.

We find a homicidal Governor who is bent on killing anyone even remotely like Jesus . . . .and then you want me to answer why this guy didn't record any observations documenting his amazing deeds?

Am I missing something here?

Yep. you certainly are. ALl we need is the report that all the Jews were going around following this fellow, even if they thought the 'miracles' were supersition and fraud.

So tell me . . . what writings of Pilate DO we have? Based on this criteria, he should have written about the Egyptian too. And he should have written about the "messiah" he had killed in 36CE.

Please pull out these writings for me so that I know that Pilate wrote about . . . how did you put it . . . . Oh yea, this guy . . .

the Jews were going around following this fellow, even if they thought the 'miracles' were supersition and fraud.

Right now, none. We DO contemporary writers from Jerusalem from that time period. It doesn't have to be Pilate.. it coudl have been philo, it could have been another one. . But, we have none.

Philo? You mean the same Philo who failed to write about the prominate Jewish leader in Jerusalem old Gil?

And others huh?

What other ones? Names. so far you have named a Roman Gov. who had zero interest in writing about the people he was trying to kill off (big surprise) and Philo, who also failed to write about other significant religious leaders, even if they were part of his own beliefs.

Anyone else?

Bringing up straw men again huh? I said ANYONE, and I do mean ANYONE.

It could have been the essene's, if there was a dead sea scroll that mentioned Jesus it would be FASCINATING. .. don't you agree? Or, anybody else. Anybody outside of the Christian scriptures and before the destruction of the temple. .. it appears to me beliefs got warped after the temple was destroyed.

no, because the writings you are talking about are religious writings.. that are preaching.

And can you show this was written before the descruction of the temple in Jersusalum

On Edit: It appears that the "Gospel of Peace" is a psuedow work that was 'channeled' in 1928.

[achilles12604]

Pilate?

Since when did Roman Governors travel into the heart of the Marketplace to watch a Jewish soothsayer? For that matter when did they travel into the Market at all? And even if he did happen to travel to the Market, and he happened to see Jesus, and he happened to care enough to stop and watch yet another zealot leader, why would he bother to write it down?

Since when did Roman Governors meet with a condemed prisoner and proclaim them innocent, but execute them anyway?

On the other hand, we DO have a record of Pilate taking an active interest in a messanic figure, by his purposeful capture and execution of the Samaritan messiah in 36 c.e.

So let me get this straight . . .


We are looking for a non-Christian figure, who would have witnessed Jesus actions, found them amazing, and written them down but still maintained his disbelief.

We find a homicidal Governor who is bent on killing anyone even remotely like Jesus . . . .and then you want me to answer why this guy didn't record any observations documenting his amazing deeds?

Am I missing something here?

Yep. you certainly are. ALl we need is the report that all the Jews were going around following this fellow, even if they thought the 'miracles' were supersition and fraud.

So tell me . . . what writings of Pilate DO we have? Based on this criteria, he should have written about the Egyptian too. And he should have written about the "messiah" he had killed in 36CE.

Please pull out these writings for me so that I know that Pilate wrote about . . . how did you put it . . . . Oh yea, this guy . . .

the Jews were going around following this fellow, even if they thought the 'miracles' were supersition and fraud.

Right now, none. We DO contemporary writers from Jerusalem from that time period. It doesn't have to be Pilate.. it coudl have been philo, it could have been another one. . But, we have none.

Philo? You mean the same Philo who failed to write about the prominate Jewish leader in Jerusalem old Gil?

And others huh?

What other ones? Names. so far you have named a Roman Gov. who had zero interest in writing about the people he was trying to kill off (big surprise) and Philo, who also failed to write about other significant religious leaders, even if they were part of his own beliefs.

Anyone else?

Bringing up straw men again huh? I said ANYONE, and I do mean ANYONE.

It could have been the essene's, if there was a dead sea scroll that mentioned Jesus it would be FASCINATING. .. don't you agree? Or, anybody else. Anybody outside of the Christian scriptures and before the destruction of the temple. .. it appears to me beliefs got warped after the temple was destroyed.

Oh . . . you mean like . . .

And then many sick and maimed came to Jesus, asking him. "if you know all things, tell us, why do we suffer with these grievous plagues? Why are we not whole like other men? Master, heal us, that we too may be made strong, and need abide no longer in our misery. We know that you have it in your power to heal all manner of disease. Free us from Satan and from all his great afflictions. Master, have compassion on us."

And Jesus answered- "Happy are you that you hunger for the truth, for I will satisfy you with the bread of wisdom. Happy are you, that you knock, for I will open to you the door of life. Happy are you, that you would cast off the power of Satan, for I will lead you into the kincdom of our Mother's angels, where the power of Satan cannot enter."

http://www.essene.com/GospelOfPeace/peace1.html

Or maybe . . .

And seeing the multitudes, Jesus went up into a mountain, and his disciples came unto him, and all those who hungered for his words. And seeing them gathered, he opened his mouth and taught them, saying:

"Peace I bring to thee, my children,

The Sevenfold Peace

Of the Earthly Mother

And the Heavenly Father.

Peace I bring to thy body,

http://www.essene.com/GospelOfPeace/pea ... nFoldPeace

And it came to pass that Jesus gathered the Sons of Light by the shore of the river, to reveal to them that which had been hidden; for the space of seven years had passed, and each one was ripe for truth, as the flower opens from the bud when the angels of sun and water bring it to its time of blossoming.

And all of them were unlike one to the other, for some were of age, and some had still the dew of youth on their cheeks, and some had been raised according to the traditions of their fathers, and others knew not who their father and mother had been. But all shared in a clearness of eye and a suppleness of body, for these were signs that for seven years they had walked with the angels of the Earthly Mother and obeyed her laws. And for seven years the unknown angels of the Heavenly Father had taught them through their sleeping hours. And now was the day come when they would enter the Brotherhood of the Elect and learn the hidden teachings of the Elders, even those of Enoch and before.

http://www.essene.com/GospelOfPeace/peace4.html



Things like these?

Yea. I do find them fascinating. What was your point again?

no, because the writings you are talking about are religious writings.. that are preaching.

And can you show this was written before the descruction of the temple in Jersusalum

Wait a second Goat. Your suggested reference (the dead sea scrolls) are a religious writing . . .

You sly guy, you are trying to change the rules after the game has been played.

You never said I couldn't include religious writings. You just wanted a reference from the Essenes.

Changing your requirements again Goat?

Here let me help . . .



Achilles, I want you to find a Roman, Essene who was writing in German, who was writing about the amazing deeds done by Jesus in a standard CNN newscast format. THEN, I will be convinced.





You wanted writing of Essenes, so I provided. When you suddenly found out I could provide, you suddenly changed the rules.

I said ANYONE, and I do mean ANYONE.

It could have been the essene's, if there was a dead sea scroll that mentioned Jesus it would be FASCINATING.

ANYONE? Ok. Essenes? OK.


Dead Sea Scrolls? Goat, the dead sea scrolls ARE RELIGIOUS WRITINGS TOO!!


So you suggested that I cite a specific group, and you mention the possibility of a reference in writings which are religious in nature . . . . and then when I provide . . .

You complain that I met YOUR EXACT DEMANDS.



So

YOU - suggested that I find ANYONE

You - suggested that I find the Essenes

and YOU - put forth that religious writings from this group were acceptable.

And now you say . . .

no, because the writings you are talking about are religious writings.. that are preaching.

What exactly do you want from me Goat? I deliver EXACTLY what you wanted me to, and then you changed the rules.


Can I prove it was written before 70 CE?

Well first off, WHY? What would it matter?

Second . . .

The Essene Gospel of Peace, also called the Gospel of Peace of Jesus Christ, was written earlier than any book in the New Testament. It was translated into old Slavic in the 1st Century, ans has always been venerated by the Eastern Orthodox church

From http://www.deepinfo.com/religion/Peace0.htm