Why do you believe in God?

[McCulloch]

The arguments for believing that there is a God can be categorized as follows:

1. Four Classical Arguments
2. The Argument from First Cause
   1. Everything must have a cause
   2. Causal Chains cannot go on forever
   3. Therefore there must be a first cause, and that is God.
3. The Argument from Design
   1. Something in the universe or the universe itself seems to be designed
   2. Therefore a designer must exist and that is God
4. The Argument from the Anthropic Principle
   1. The universal constants are fine tuned for the existence of humans.
   2. Therefore there must have been a God to fine tune the universe for our existence
5. The Ontological Argument
   1. God is a being than which nothing greater can be conceived.
   2. Assume that God does not exist.
   3. An existent God is a being greater than a non-existent one
   4. If God did not exist, then we could conceive of a being greater than God -- A God that exists.
   5. This is a contradiction, therefore (2) must be false and God exists
   Courtesy of Saint Anselm.

1. Four Subjective Arguments
2. The Argument from Coincidence
   1. There have been some remarkable coincidences.
   2. There must be a reason for those coincidences.
   3. That reason is God.
3. The Argument from Prophecy
   1. A holy book makes prophesies.
   2. A holy book or the adherents of it report that those prophesies have come true.
   3. Therefore whatever else is in the book, such as the claim that God exists must be true.
4. The Argument from Subjectivity and Faith
   1. People feel sure that God exists.
   2. Therefore God exists.
5. The Argument from Divine Interventions, Miracles and such
   1. A miracle occurs, perhaps as a response to prayer.
   2. God exists as evidenced by the divine intervention

1. Four Psycho-Mathematical Arguments
2. The Argument from Redefinition
   1. God is Love or Goodness or some other such thing.
   2. Love, goodness or whatever, clearly exists.
   3. Therefore God exists.
3. The Argument from Cognitive Tendency
   1. Some cognitive tendencies suggest the existence of an all-powerful agent.
   2. God must be that all-powerful agent
4. The Universality Argument and Morality
   1. Across cultures, the similarities in moral values are quite apparent.
   2. They must come from God
5. The Gambling Argument
   1. We can choose to believe or not in God.
   2. If we choose wrongly then negative consequences of choosing to disbelieve are greater than the negative consequences of choosing to believe.
   3. Therefore it is prudent to believe.

The classifications and much of the synopses are from John Allen Paulos, Professor of Mathematics at Temple University, in his book Irreligion, A Mathematician Explains Why the Arguments for God Just Don't Add Up As fallacious as these might seem, these seriously are the arguments put forth by philosophers, theologians, saints, apologists and preachers.

These are the arguments for God. There are numerous subtle variations on them, but essentially, as far as I can tell those who claim that God exists do so based on one or more of these arguments and nothing else.

Why should I believe that there is a God? What are your reasons? Are any of these reasons valid? If your reasons do not fall into any of the above groupings, please let us know why you believe. If you believe for a combination of these reasons, select the strongest one and explain why.

[OnceConvinced]

A good topic for debate is how does a story develop over almost 4 millenia and end up convincing more than half the worlds population that it is not only truth but the word of God?

Well perhaps looking at other Holy books from other religions that have had a huge effect on the masses. Eg the Quran, the book of Morman... even Dianetics (Scientology). Also your statistics are not true. It is far less than half the world's population that take the bible as the word of God. The majority do not.

Do you think that we could start a new story where we convince the world that George Washington, Abraham Lincoln, John F. Kennedy and Martin Luther King Jr. did not actually die but are alive to this day? Do you think that people were more gullible 2000 years ago?

Well there's plenty of people who think that Elvis is still alive!

But just like in Jesus day, there will be many people that didn't believe. The church only started out as a very small group. But as the years went by more and more people bought into it. We can see examples of many different religions, all which thrive today, which are a result of exagerated or made up stories. Do you really think that in a thousand years time there won't be a whole lot more different false religions?

Would you be willing to tell me why and how you came to call yourself a Christian? Who or what fooled you?

I know this question wasn't directed at me, but for me it was a good understanding of the bible and the Holy spirit that fooled me.

Okay, if I have been fooled, it has been done so well that to this day I have not discovered it.

Took me over 30 years before I realised I had been fooled. God allowed me to live over 30 years of my life believing I had a relationship with him and that I was filled with the Holy Spirit.

[olavisjo]

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Can you imagine if Zzyzx were to find Jesus, I think that half of the Atheists on this forum would also convert.

I doubt it. We don't believe or disbelieve based on others beliefs or disbeliefs. Give us evidence and reasons. Please.

If Zzyzx were to announce that he “found Jesus� the realist members would likely conclude that either 1) It was a joke, or 2) Zzyzx had gone soft in the head and lost his marbles. The former is much more likely.

There is nothing funny about taking our eternal future lightly, whether we believe or not. Going soft in the head is not as unlikely an event as you may want it to be, at our age it is almost inevitable if we live long enough.

McCulloch is right. I doubt that any one of us would be likely to become religious because someone else chose to do so. Non-Theists seem to be more independent of thought than Theists and less likely to follow the herd or follow a person.

I would have said they seem just the opposite, but I don't have any evidence to back that up either.

There have been indications that Theists do not understand that independent and analytical thinking tends to be characteristic of many Non-Theists.

Can we elaborate on these indications? Where have they been?

As much as I respect McCulloch or Bernee or several other very capable Non-Theistic debaters, if they chose to “find Jesus� I would doubt their sanity. I have had that experience in personal life – and literally doubted the sanity of my friends (who became ex-friends when they could not refrain from “god talk� at me and from attempts to “convert� me to their new found beliefs).

I have found Jesus, and yet you do not doubt my sanity. Do you?

[Zzyzx]

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You can give a man a hundred good arguments for God and get no results, but when the man gets a small blood clot stuck in his brain and a limb becomes limp and his speech becomes slurred, all of a sudden becoming right with God does not seem like such a bad idea.

Evidently many people "turn to god" from fear. Others under similar conditions do not.

Is it a compliment to religion that it appeals to people who are frightened or who are emotionally distraught?

I would far prefer that my ideas appeal to people who are strong, unafraid and emotionally stable.

[olavisjo]

Man you have to lose that avatar, it is just too weird.

A good topic for debate is how does a story develop over almost 4 millennia and end up convincing more than half the worlds population that it is not only truth but the word of God?

Well perhaps looking at other Holy books from other religions that have had a huge effect on the masses. Eg the Quran, the book of Mormon... even Dianetics (Scientology). Also your statistics are not true. It is far less than half the world's population that take the bible as the word of God. The majority do not.

I was referring to the story of Abraham who lived about 4,000 years ago and now the adherents of the Abrahmic religions is about 54% of the worlds population.

Do you think that we could start a new story where we convince the world that George Washington, Abraham Lincoln, John F. Kennedy and Martin Luther King Jr. did not actually die but are alive to this day? Do you think that people were more gullible 2000 years ago?

But just like in Jesus day, there will be many people that didn't believe. The church only started out as a very small group. But as the years went by more and more people bought into it. We can see examples of many different religions, all which thrive today, which are a result of exaggerated or made up stories. Do you really think that in a thousand years time there won't be a whole lot more different false religions?

I do find it hard to believe that in a thousand years we are not going to smarten up enough to toss out all this nuttiness. But, as they say, there's a sucker born every minute.

Would you be willing to tell me why and how you came to call yourself a Christian? Who or what fooled you?

I know this question wasn't directed at me, but for me it was a good understanding of the bible and the Holy spirit that fooled me.

Okay, if I have been fooled, it has been done so well that to this day I have not discovered it.

Took me over 30 years before I realised I had been fooled. God allowed me to live over 30 years of my life believing I had a relationship with him and that I was filled with the Holy Spirit.

How can you say that with such a straight face?

[olavisjo]

Is it a compliment to religion that it appeals to people who are frightened or who are emotionally distraught?

I would far prefer that my ideas appeal to people who are strong, unafraid and emotionally stable.

On hearing this, Jesus said to them, "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners."

So I would have to say that it is a compliment to God that he is there for those who need him, and sends away empty those who claim to have it all together.
You may have a weak standard for strong, unafraid and emotionally stable, but to my standard of those terms I do not know anyone who fits them, we all fall short at times.

Edit (NIV) added

[McCulloch]

Okay, if I have been fooled, it has been done so well that to this day I have not discovered it.

But if it is what you want, then you have no motivation to be objective and skeptical.

But I will say that I have found what I want, so if it is good, bad or indiferent it does not matter, it is still what I want.

But it does matter. Surely we can agree on that. It matters whether the faith you or I may hold is good or it is bad, regardless of how it makes us feel.

It is like you can't defraud me because I do not have anything I would not be willing to give to you if you really want it bad enough to try and get it from me by fraud.

If someone asks you to go a mile, go two. If someone asks you for your coat, give him you cloak as well. Do you really believe that?

Thus religion is irrational.

Yes, I would have to agree with you there.
Some things are irrational but we do them anyway, like love, love is so irrational that it should be categorized as a mental illness.

Obsessive love that is irrational is categorized as a mental illness. What's your point?

You can give a man a hundred good arguments for God

I realize that this is a rhetorical hyperbole. I can only identify nine reasons and none of them are good.

and get no results, but when the man gets a small blood clot stuck in his brain and a limb becomes limp and his speech becomes slurred, all of a sudden becoming right with God does not seem like such a bad idea.

Christians would really like to believe this. That is why there are so many Christian apologists who continue to repeat the lies that Charles Darwin, Albert Einstein, George Carlin and certain others recanted on their deathbeds.

[Zzyzx]

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Is it a compliment to religion that it appeals to people who are frightened or who are emotionally distraught?

I would far prefer that my ideas appeal to people who are strong, unafraid and emotionally stable.

On hearing this, Jesus said to them, "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners."

Are you aware that biblical quotes are meaningless to Non-Theists? If you know that why would you use such things in attempting to communicate with Non-Theists? If you are not attempting to communicate, what is the purpose of posting?

So I would have to say that it is a compliment to God that he is there for those who need him,

Perhaps it is comforting for some when encountering times of difficulty or need to turn to an invisible friend (whether imaginary or real). Others do not have the same needs.

When I have been in difficult situations I turned to myself first and to friends if necessary – real friends that exist in the real world we inhabit.

I cannot make myself believe that an invisible super being will “help� me.

and sends away empty those who claim to have it all together.

What makes you think that those who don’t need “god� are “empty�? What is the justification for your statement?

You may have a weak standard for strong, unafraid and emotionally stable, but to my standard of those terms I do not know anyone who fits them, we all fall short at times.

My standard of “strong, unafraid and emotionally stable� does not require perfection in those regards – but a general attitude. If one “falls short at times� they are not “disqualified�. A person who is strong 99% of the time but has an occasional weak moment is strong in my terms.

If some small “failure rate� makes a person less than strong in someone else’s value system (perhaps in effort to promote worship of a supposedly “supreme� being), that is not my problem and it does not reflect upon my decisions.

Emphasizing fear, weakness and emotionalism may further the interests of clerics and religionists; however, in my opinion it is detrimental to individuals. Religions may well depend upon such characteristics and may seek to emphasize them to increase dependency upon religion.

[FinalEnigma]

If Zzyzx were to announce that he “found Jesus� the realist members would likely conclude that either 1) It was a joke, or 2) Zzyzx had gone soft in the head and lost his marbles. The former is much more likely.

Based on Zyzzx's personality, I would probably conclude #2. He is too much the scientist type for subjective reasons to convert him, and I doubt he's going to run into such an incredibly amazing argument for god that he instantly converts.
Zyzzx converting wouldn't really influence me that much.

There is one person whom the conversion of would cause me significant pause. But it wouldn't make me convert. It would make me have some long and serious conversation with them about why they converted and what changed their mind, but that's it unless they had found something very convincing and non-subjective.

As an aside, just so that people don't misunderstand my position, I would be classified as a weak atheist. I don't believe in God, but I'm not arrogant enough to think there is a 0% chance that there is a god. I place the probability of a god existing(particularly the christian god) as very low. But not non-existant. I'm intelligent enough to admit that no matter what conclusion I come to, I could be wrong. humans are fallable and I am human.

oh and as a note, the thing I think would be most likely to cause me to convert would be a very convincing subjective experience. I don't believe there is an argument out there solid enough to convince me to believe in God. And said subjective experience would have to happen to me. close friends wouldn't work. and it would have to be one heck of an experience. the first thing it would do is cause me to doubt my sanity. If you ever saw the T.v. show Joan of Arcadia that kind of experience might do it. But as I said, it would have to be one whopper of a personal experience.

[olavisjo]

Okay, if I have been fooled, it has been done so well that to this day I have not discovered it.

But if it is what you want, then you have no motivation to be objective and skeptical.

Believe it or not I am about the most skeptical person you will ever encounter, when I see something new, I will be the first to point out any possible flaws. And I think that you have read enough of my posts to know that I am highly objective.

But I will say that I have found what I want, so if it is good, bad or indifferent it does not matter, it is still what I want.

But it does matter. Surely we can agree on that. It matters whether the faith you or I may hold is good or it is bad, regardless of how it makes us feel.

Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind, and your neighbor as yourself. That is all that matters to me, if it is wrong then I will gladly be wrong.

It is like you can't defraud me because I do not have anything I would not be willing to give to you if you really want it bad enough to try and get it from me by fraud.

If someone asks you to go a mile, go two. If someone asks you for your coat, give him you cloak as well. Do you really believe that?

Yes I do, but I balance that with what Solomon had to say as well.

Thus religion is irrational.

Yes, I would have to agree with you there.
Some things are irrational but we do them anyway, like love, love is so irrational that it should be categorized as a mental illness.

Obsessive love that is irrational is categorized as a mental illness. What's your point?

The point is, that just because something is irrational does not mean that it is wrong.

and get no results, but when the man gets a small blood clot stuck in his brain and a limb becomes limp and his speech becomes slurred, all of a sudden becoming right with God does not seem like such a bad idea.

Christians would really like to believe this. That is why there are so many Christian apologists who continue to repeat the lies that Charles Darwin, Albert Einstein, George Carlin and certain others recanted on their deathbeds.

I don't know what these men did in their last hours, but how do you know what they did not do?

[McCulloch]

Okay, if I have been fooled, it has been done so well that to this day I have not discovered it.

But if it is what you want, then you have no motivation to be objective and skeptical.

Believe it or not I am about the most skeptical person you will ever encounter, when I see something new, I will be the first to point out any possible flaws. And I think that you have read enough of my posts to know that I am highly objective.

Well, I may have problems believing it. I'll try to keep an eye out for an opportunity to remind you that you claim to be skeptical and objective.

But I will say that I have found what I want, so if it is good, bad or indifferent it does not matter, it is still what I want.

But it does matter. Surely we can agree on that. It matters whether the faith you or I may hold is good or it is bad, regardless of how it makes us feel.

Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind, and your neighbor as yourself. That is all that matters to me, if it is wrong then I will gladly be wrong.

Why would you gladly be wrong? What if all that matters is to love your neighbors and that love and obedience to an invisible spirit matters not at all?

It is like you can't defraud me because I do not have anything I would not be willing to give to you if you really want it bad enough to try and get it from me by fraud.

If someone asks you to go a mile, go two. If someone asks you for your coat, give him you cloak as well. Do you really believe that?

Yes I do, but I balance that with what Solomon had to say as well.

Yes, the Bible can be used to support contrary positions.

Thus religion is irrational.

Yes, I would have to agree with you there.
Some things are irrational but we do them anyway, like love, love is so irrational that it should be categorized as a mental illness.

Obsessive love that is irrational is categorized as a mental illness. What's your point?

The point is, that just because something is irrational does not mean that it is wrong.

But no one has the right to insist that something irrational is unquestionably correct.

and get no results, but when the man gets a small blood clot stuck in his brain and a limb becomes limp and his speech becomes slurred, all of a sudden becoming right with God does not seem like such a bad idea.

Christians would really like to believe this. That is why there are so many Christian apologists who continue to repeat the lies that Charles Darwin, Albert Einstein, George Carlin and certain others recanted on their deathbeds.

I don't know what these men did in their last hours, but how do you know what they did not do?

I don't. But neither do the lying apologists for Christianity who repeat demonstrated falsehoods and unproven assertions regarding these individuals' deathbed conversions.