Mary: Virgin or Minx?

[Furrowed Brow]

"How will this be," Mary asked the angel, "since I am a virgin?" Luke 1:34

Which is more likely: That the whole natural order is suspended or that a Jewish minx should tell a lie?

Why is the virgin birth not a lie?

[Flail]

Neither Jesus nor Paul make reference to a virgin birth. Paul speaks of Jesus' birth on a couple of occasions, but makes no mention of Mary being impregnated by God, a point Paul would undoubtedly have included had it been known. Seems obvious that the Virgin claims were nothing more than later day add-ons to complete the myth.

Agreed, it's a myth, part of a deposit of faith, a narrative trope that resonates with meaning in a community.

So now what?

....So now we need to point out to those fundamentalist Christians who have adopted the judgement that all non-Christians are condemned to Hell by the BibleGod, that they are judging people based upon nothing more than a first century myth.

Yes, that works.
In addition to disabusing them of this, I'd also invite them into a more enlightened way of seeing it.
And once the burden of hellfire is lifted off the non-believers, I'd share with them a nice myth that they might find meaningful.

Agreed. I have no problem with using the Jesus myth as a tool for teaching ethics and as a paradigm for hope so long as clearly defined as mythos. And if you are into the rituals, music, appearances and worshipping mythos, Christianity can offer a nice tax deduction. (although I think altruism and charity are better informed without the mythos while offering similar tax incentives.)

[The Tongue]

I believe Goat and a few others have suggested that the word "virgin" is not a good translation.

Right, but this is actually mixing two different arguments.

Matthew says quite plainly, I think, that Mary was a virgin at the time she conceived Jesus. Or at least that is the strong implication of the story: the conception is miraculous and she had yet to consummate her marriage with Joseph.

He then goes on to say that this is, in some sense, a fulfillment of Isaiah 7:14. It's the translation of that text that is being debated throughout the thread.

But, even if we conclude, for the sake of argument, that Matthew was in some sense wrong or mistaken in making that connection to Isaiah, that doesn't change the fact that Matthew's account, in and of itself, essentially says that Mary is a virgin.

Couple that with Luke's account, which also says matter-of-factly (and even more explicitly) that Mary was a virgin, with no reference to Isaiah at all, and I think we have an early Christian tradition of a virgin conception of Jesus. Whether Isaiah 7:14 has some kind of "prophetic" connection to that is a secondary issue.

How in the world would Matthew or Luke have any idea of whether Mary was a virgin impregnated by God? Doesn't such a preposterous claim require something more than just 'saying so'?

[Flail wrote].....How in the world would Matthew or Luke have any idea of whether Mary was a virgin impregnated by God? Doesn't such a preposterous claim require something more than just 'saying so'?

Correct! And that preposterous claim cannot be justified by the holy scriptures.

Go to “A Dictionary of Biblical Tradition in English Literature,� by David Jeffery.
There you will find written, “Many scholars consider the new Revised Standard Version of the King James translation, which is probably the most widely used version of the English bible today, and considered by most modern scholars to be to be the most accurate translation of the Old Testament. It follows the modern consensus in translating ‘Almah’ as ‘Young Woman’ in Isaiah 7: 14.

In 1973, an ecumenical edition of RSV was approved by both Protestant and Catholic hierarchies, called the common bible. As a matter of fact, I have in front of me, A New English Translation of the Bible, published in 1970 and approved by the council of churches in England, Scotland, Wales, the Irish council of churches, the London Society of Friends, and the Methodist and Presbyterian churches of England. And what do we read in Isaiah 7: 14; “A young Woman is with child, and she will bear a son.� I also have before me The Good News Bible, catholic Study Edition, with imprimatur by Archbishop John Whealon: and on turning to Isaiah 7: 14; and what do you know? It says here, “A young woman who is pregnant will have a son, etc.�

The word “Virgin� in reference to the mother of Jesus was first introduced in the 5th century Latin Bible ‘The Vulgate,’ due mainly to the effort of Jerome who was commissioned to make a revision of the books that had already been translated to Latin by, in most cases, persons unknown, and with those books translated by Jerome himself, which revision was completed in 405 A.D. became the official bible of the universal church that had been established by its unorthodox and non-christian champion, ‘King Constantine,’ who had his father Constantius deified and was accorded the same honour himself after his death.

In translating the Hebrew words of the prophet Isaiah, that an “Almah� an “unmarried female� is with child and will bear a son,� into Greek, which unlike the Hebrew language, does not have a specific term for ‘virgin,’ the authors of the Septuagint and Matthew correctly used the Greek word ‘Parthenos,’ which carries a basic meaning of ‘girl,’ or unmarried youth, and denotes ‘virgin’ only by implication. A more accurate rendering of the Greek “parthenos� is a person who does not have a regular sexual partner, a widow with a family of children, would be a “parthenos�, Hanna who nursed the baby Jesus before Mary performed the ceremony of purification, was a widow of seven years, and is referred to as a “parthenos� for seven years, but she was in no way, a virgin.

To translate something from the Hebrew to the Greek, or from any language to another, one must not lose the essence of the original, and the original was, that “An young woman was with child.� Therefore, as the greater majority of churches now admit, that the words of Isaiah, which refer to a child that had been sired by him, was, “A young woman who is pregnant will have a son, etc.� Matthew 1: 23; should now read, “Now all this happened to make come true what the Lord had said through Isaiah, “A young woman who is pregnant will have a son, etc.� Because they all now admit that those were the words of Isaiah 7: 14.

‘Parthenos,’ was often used in reference to non-virgins who had never been married. Homer uses it in reference to unmarried girls who were no longer virgins, and Homer was the standard textbook for learning Greek all throughout antiquity, so any writer of Greek, including Matthew, who translated Isaiah’s words, that (An unmarried woman would be with child etc) while being well aware of this words versatile and indefinite meaning; was in no way implying that Mary was a virgin.

For the Hebrew has a specific term for ‘virgin,’ “Bethulah� which word is used in every instance in the Old Testament where a woman who has never had sexual intercourse with a man is referred to, which is obviously not the case with the unmarried woman/Almah, who is mentioned in Isaiah 7:14.

In Pergamos, as one of the final stages in the quest for enlightenment, the initiated adept would participate in sex with the Temple Virgin/Parthenos.

"Parthenos" did not mean possessing an intact hymen. A parthenos was simply an unmarried woman, a woman who claimed ownership of herself.

In Matthew you will find the genealogy of Joseph the son of Jacob from the tribe of Judah, this Joseph, is the 24th descendant of Solomon the biological son of King David and Bathsheba, who was the wife of Uriah the Hittite, and this Joseph who married Mary, is not genetically connected to Jesus as he had no sexual relations with Mary until after she had given birth to Jesus, and although, according to the Torah, an adopted son inherits the rights of his adopted father, because this Joseph who was the step father of Jesus, was a descendant of the cursed line of Jehoiachim, he had no claim to the throne of David.

In reference to Jehoiachim it is written in Jeremiah 22: 30; Thus saith the Lord. “Write ye this man, a man that shall not prosper in his days; for no man of his seed shall prosper, sitting upon the throne of David, and ruling any more in Judah.�

In Luke 3: 23; you will find “the genealogy of Jesus,� Mary was the daughter of Heli and Anna, one of three daughters of Yehoshua/Jesus III, who was high priest in Jerusalem from 36 to 23 BC. Anna was given as a bride to Alexander Helios (Heli) and Jesus is the biological son of “Joseph, the son of Heli,� as was supposed by the people of his day who knew the family well.

And this Joseph, (A very common name in those days as well as today) who is the biological Father of Jesus, is about the 40th descendant of Nathan the half brother to Solomon the biological son of King David.

Nathan and Solomon were half brothers, as they were both sired by different fathers, but both had the same mother, “Bathsheba the wife of Uriah the Hittite,� who is the biological father of Nathan and a member of the tribe of Levi by his marriage to Bathsheba the daughter of Ammiel, the son of Obed-Edom, who is descended from Moses through his second wife, the daughter of Hobab, who is one of the two fathers-in-law to Moses the Levite. Jesus our high priest is not of the order of Aaron, but of Moses, who was to be to Aaron, as God on earth. See Exodus 4: 16.

Presumably, Joseph the son of Heli, would have met Mary for the first time, at the gathering of the family and friends of Elizabeth the aged sister of Anna and aunty of Mary, who were both of the daughters of Levi. This was some months after the young “parthenos� (Unmarried) Mary had told the angel that up until that point in time she had never had any sexual relations with a man. Implying that the unmarried girl, “Almah=Parthenos� was still a virgin, before she met Joseph the Levite from Cyprus. Undoubtedly they did not realise at that time that they had a common father, Heli, from the tribe of Levi.

This Joseph the Levite who is the descendant of Nathan, came from Cyprus and he had a half sister by the name Mary, who was the adopted mother of John, who Jesus had surnamed “Son of Thunder,� and who is identified with the young John who was surnamed “Mark,� which means ‘Hammer,’ or “The Hammerer.� After the death of Jesus, this Joseph the Levite, who is also named “Barnabas,� took his half sister and young John up north into the land of Pamphylia, where today, in the town of Ephesus, the grave sites of both Mary and John can still be visited.

Isaac, the biological son Abraham, who is the son of Terah, was born according to the workings of the Holy Spirit, as was Jesus the son of Joseph, who is the son of Heli.
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Amplified Bible Galatians 4: 29; “And just as at that time the child that was born according to the flesh (Ishmael) despised and persecuted (Isaac) who was born according to the promise and the workings of the Holy Spirit.

Isaac is a prototype of Jesus and like Jesus, was born of God’s promise according to the workings of the Holy Spirit. Both are seen as the seed that was promised to Abraham.

Both Isaac and Jesus were the sons of parents who were both sired by the one Father.

‘Terah,’ is the father to both Abraham and Sarah by different mothers, while ‘Heli,’ is the father of both Joseph and Mary, by different mothers.

Both Mary and Sarah were informed by an angel that they would become Pregnant and bear the son of God’s promise. Isaac was offered up as a sacrifice by his physical father, Jesus was offered up by his spiritual father, who descended upon him in the form of a dove as the voice was heard to say, ‘ you are my beloved in whom I am well pleased, TODAY I have become your Father.� Or rather, “Today I have begotten thee.� See the more ancient authorities of Luke 3: 22; and Isaac was offered up on the same mountain at the very spot where Jesus was crucified.

In Luke 3: 22; (In place of “Thou art my beloved son in who I am well pleased.�) The following authorities of the second, third, and fourth centuries read, “This day I have begotten thee,� vouched for by Codex D, and the most ancient copies of the old latin (a, b. c. ff.I), by Justin Martyr (AD 140), Clemens Alex, (AD. 190), Methodius (AD. 290), among the Greeks. And among the Latins, Lactaitius (AD 300), Hilary (AD) Juvencus (AD. 330), Faustus (AD. 400) and Augustine. All these oldest manuscripts were changed completely. They now read, “This is my son in whom I am well pleased.� Whereas the original variant was, “Thou art my Son. This day I have begotten thee.�

If Jesus was not born of the flesh as all human beings are, but was supposedly born of a virgin without male semen having been introduced into her uterus, then this would have been the greatest of all miracles, and would have been shouted from the roof tops by all four gospel writers and yet we see that Mark, who is believed to have been the son of Peter, and John, the beloved disciple, who walked and talked with Jesus, ignore the physical birth of Jesus as being totally irrelevant to the story of salvation and begin their account of He, who was sent in the name of the Lord, with the Baptism of the man Jesus, when he was born of the spirit that descended upon him in the form of a dove and the heavenly voice was heard to say, “You are my beloved in whom I am well pleased, Today I have become your father.�

Matthew merely translates the Hebrew, Isaiah 7: 14; “A young unmarried woman who IS pregnant will have a son and will name him ‘Immanuel.’�

While Luke simply reveals that the young unmarried 14 year old Mary, was still a virgin 3 months before she was found to be pregnant. Due to her obedience to our indwelling ancestral Father spirit, she conceived in her womb the child of the father, chosen by the Holy Spirit, which act of obedience by the handmaid of the Lord, was concealed in the shadows beneath the wings of the Lord of Spirits.

According to Young's Analytical Concordances to the Bible, the Hebrew "Almah," carries the meaning, "Unmarried female---Concealment."

There is only one man who is recorded in God’s holy word, who was carried to God, where he was anointed by the Godhead of the Most High in the creation, He was the cornerstone of the evolving spirit in the body of post-flood mankind, to who all the spirits of Noah’s descendants are gathered, in the creation of the great heavenly simulacrum that is the “Son of Man� and the sacrificial offering for the body of mankind in which he develops, who dies in the process of involution, to be the savior of we in evolution.

The only man to have ascended to the ends of all time and translated so as to never see death, and this man, plays absolutely no part in the belief of the universal church of Constantine: “The Stone that the builder's rejected, has turned out to be the most important stone of all.

John 3: 13; Jesus, when speaking with Nicodemus before he himself had ascended to heaven to sit in our Father’s throne of Godhead says, “And no man has ascended to heaven except, (Except who?) except He who came down, even “The Son of Man� who IS in heaven.