God and the Meaningful Life

[spetey]

Hi again DC&R debaters, I have another puzzler for you. I think it's an important one to consider.

In my experience, many people say they believe in God because God gives their lives meaning. This reason to believe involves two important claims that should be separated:

1. If God did not exist, life would not have sufficient "meaning".
2. This previous claim, if true, is itself reason to believe that God does exist.

(I should make it clear I mean, here, the traditional God of Abraham--the God of Jews, Christians, and Muslims--the one who gave Moses the 10 Commandments, and sent the flood, and who Christians think sent Jesus to die for our sins, etc.)

I think both of these claims are false. That is:

1. I think that life has plenty of "meaning" even though I think there is no God. For example: I still think the world is beautiful, that there is reason to be good to other people, that there is often reason for awe and humility in the face of nature, that life is a precious thing, and so on. In fact, I often think a life with a God would have less meaning, just as I think an adult life spent living with your parents has less "meaning" than when you strike out on your own.
2. Even if it were true that life would not have sufficient meaning without God, I don't think that would itself be reason to believe that there is a God. Compare this: even if it were true that without $1 million I can never be happy, I still don't think that alone is reason to think I have $1 million. That is, even if I really do need $1m to be happy (something I doubt), maybe the truth is I just don't have enough money to be happy. To believe I have that money just because I need it is to commit the wishful thinking fallacy.

Now I should say, I do think there are lots of good things that belief in God can do for people. For example, off the top of my head:

• It can bring people together in a community, for contemplation, celebration, and grieving.
• It can get people thinking about ethical issues.
• It can get people thinking about spiritual issues.
• It can encourage calm reflection and meditation.

But I think all of these can be had without belief in God. You could go, for example, to a Unitarian Universalist Church, where belief in God is not required, but where people think morally, reflect spiritually, grieve and celebrate, and so on.

Meanwhile I think belief in God encourages some very bad things:

• For many, it encourages faith--which is just belief without reason, and which many seem to agree is irresponsible (as in this thread).
• In particular, such faith appeals lead to impasses and intolerance when encountering cultures that disagree. As we have seen throughout history, this is a common cause for war and terrorism and the like.
• Belief in a non-material intelligence promotes a kind of magical, non-scientific thinking.
• It historically has promoted, and continues to promote, confused ethical values based solely on particular leaders' readings of "what the Sacred Text says".
• It has hindered, and continues to hinder, the progress of science (by resisting the Copernican revolution, or evolutionary theory...).

...and so on.

Well, that's plenty to start discussion. What do you think? Is life meaningless without God? Even if so, would this alone be reason to believe that God does exist?


spetey

[NaturalWay]

Quoting Lev. 19:18, he says 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' I'd rather quote him where he says "they may be one as we are one". Well, I am One, too! See what I'm getting at?

But don't think that I have come here to say that “this religion is good” or “within that religion lies some truths.” Religion is the sum of the diseased doctrines of the dead. Those who follow them become blind. It tears apart friendships and is insulting to the faculties of the workings of the thinking mind. I do all that is within me to uncover this ignorance and wickedness. It is this which I struggle against.

[Curious]

I don’t talk incessantly about myself. The more that you distinguish the ‘Self’ (which is a psychological construct) from everything else, you blind yourself to the unity of all things, which is a reality.

Hedonism seeks the "local maxima" if you will of pleasure without realizing that the mind quickly becomes desensitized to pleasure. The way I advocate transcends both pleasure and pain. Jesus said that you must love your neighbor as yourself but I say that until you forget about ‘self’ and ‘other’ you have no life in you.

Its apparent that curious is not exerting a certian amount of curiousity and would rather stipulate.

Which post of mine are you referring to exactly(or is it just generally)?

[perplexed101]

I don’t talk incessantly about myself. The more that you distinguish the ‘Self’ (which is a psychological construct) from everything else, you blind yourself to the unity of all things, which is a reality.

Hedonism seeks the "local maxima" if you will of pleasure without realizing that the mind quickly becomes desensitized to pleasure. The way I advocate transcends both pleasure and pain. Jesus said that you must love your neighbor as yourself but I say that until you forget about ‘self’ and ‘other’ you have no life in you.

Its apparent that curious is not exerting a certian amount of curiousity and would rather stipulate.

Which post of mine are you referring to exactly(or is it just generally)?

an observation to your general principle.

[Curious]

Quoting Lev. 19:18, he says 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' I'd rather quote him where he says "they may be one as we are one". Well, I am One, too! See what I'm getting at?

But don't think that I have come here to say that “this religion is good” or “within that religion lies some truths.” Religion is the sum of the diseased doctrines of the dead. Those who follow them become blind. It tears apart friendships and is insulting to the faculties of the workings of the thinking mind. I do all that is within me to uncover this ignorance and wickedness. It is this which I struggle against.

I couldn't agree more in the case of certain religions, some forms of religion do encourage questioning though, so is not necessarily a bad thing, although the implementation of a much leaves a lot to be desired.

[Curious]

an observation to your general principle.

Which is?
By the way does anyone remember the original topic of discussion?

[perplexed101]

an observation to your general principle.

Which is?
By the way does anyone remember the original topic of discussion?

How about creating a catagory in which you express positive things that agree with you, outlining a core system to follow?

[Curious]

an observation to your general principle.

Which is?
By the way does anyone remember the original topic of discussion?

How about creating a catagory in which you express positive things that agree with you, outlining a core system to follow?

Why would I want to contaminate the mind of another with my dis-eased perspective? The main point I try to make in this thread is that the arguments given for the meaningless of life for an atheist are based on a fundamental misconception of what an atheist is. If you read my posts it is abundantly clear what my position is on this. As for why you think I would want anyone to follow my belief I can't imagine.

[perplexed101]

Why would I want to contaminate the mind of another with my dis-eased perspective?

Why wouldnt you want to?

The main point I try to make in this thread is that the arguments given for the meaningless of life for an atheist are based on a fundamental misconception of what an atheist is.

well if you dont want to express what it is then why try and contradict yourself?

If you read my posts it is abundantly clear what my position is on this. As for why you think I would want anyone to follow my belief I can't imagine.

i have read your posts and it contradicts even what you are willing to do.

[Corvus]

I would agree that atheists don't have to believe in the big bang, evolution, etc., but it is the position on the existence of God that brings about a belief in the meaninglessness of the world since there is no meaning that comes from our existence other than that we are here. Our existence is ultimately the result of randomness.

You seem to equating atheism with that of nihilism. While nihilists are most definitely atheists....

Let's not forget that Nietszche, whom we most associate with the term nihilism, used it in an accusation against Christianity. He argued that Christianity removed meaning from life by focussing on the next. When we think that each of our actions are only good because they are in accordance with some vague divine principles, and the act of giving money to a beggar is only meaningful because of the existence of a God, as harvey1 and others have said, then I think we can begin to see what Nietszche was talking about. Nietszche then went ahead and tried to invent ethics on a new foundation. I go one step further and say that there is absolutely no reason to act morally, though self-interest is probably the firmest foundation for doing so, because it's something everybody has. But silly, inconsiderate people will continue to act ethically for reasons other than self-interest and pay no heed to what I tell them.

[Curious]

Why would I want to contaminate the mind of another with my dis-eased perspective?

Why wouldnt you want to?

Because I can see the harm that the dissemination of the diseased perspectives of others has caused.

The main point I try to make in this thread is that the arguments given for the meaningless of life for an atheist are based on a fundamental misconception of what an atheist is.

well if you dont want to express what it is then why try and contradict yourself?

This makes about as much sense as your other posts.

If you read my posts it is abundantly clear what my position is on this. As for why you think I would want anyone to follow my belief I can't imagine.

I have read your posts and it contradicts even what you are willing to do.

How exactly do you know what I willing to do to know that i contradict it.
Language is supposed to be an aid to communication not be a barrier to it. I am sure if you took the time needed you could constuct a comprehensible sentence or is this a case of trying to counter an ounce of reason with a pound of bullsh*t?