Can evidence lead to belief in god(s)?

[Argenta]

Hello everyone. I’m Argenta and this is my first post.

I stopped believing in deities before I was old enough to buy cigarettes but I have ever since wondered why so many smart people do sincerely believe in one god or another. I have considered the evidence theists present to support their beliefs but have only been able to conclude there is no evidence. None at all. I have searched for the arguments theists present to justify their beliefs and found fallacies in them all.

Maybe I’ve missed something.

So my proposition for debate is that belief in gods serves to satisfy emotional needs and apologetics serve to post-rationalise such beliefs. Am I right or can any theists point to the evidence or arguments that genuinely converted them to belief in god(s)?

Argenta

[Zzyzx]

.

It depends on what you mean by evidence.

What I mean by "evidence" is information that can be verified by anyone interested. This eliminates testimonials, conjecture, opinion and unverifiable tales.

From an intelellectual point of view 'evidence' can go either way. I don't believe in God because of evidence in this sense (although it is supportive of my beliefs). I believe in God because I know God. For me God is a person I am aware of.

Your claim to "know god" is what is known as a "testimonial" -- an unverifiable claim that does not extend beyond the individual. Testimonials from others are typically accepted or embraced IF they confirm one's preconceived notions, and dismissed if they conflict with those notions. If someone says, "I received a message from 'god' and it said that Christians are wrong in everything they say about me", do you accept that testimonial as truthful and accurate?

I was once a very lukewarm atheist of sorts and I developed an interest in the question of God. I experienced almost a compulsion to answer this question and thought very intensely about it for some time. But I did not 'figure out' the answer in intellectual terms. God just came to me and I knew S/he existed. For me this is evidence.

Can you assure anyone else that your "god just came to me" is anything more than your own mental processes?

[EduChris]

...what impasse have you reached, what predicament are you in that makes you take the risk of jumping to conclusions without evidence?...

If there is no god, then materialism rules, and with materialism comes determinism, and with determinism comes the realization that we are not persons at all, but rather absurd wind-up toys.

I am convinced that I am not a wind-up toy, and theism is the only theoretical position which gives me a basis for believing myself to be something more than a wind-up doll. We are real because we matter to God and because God allows us to "be," not because we have been wound up to perform a prescripted dance.

...hope should include everyone not just Christians...

I believe God is at work to save the whole world, every last person. Our life here does count for something, but ultimately our hope rests with God.

[EduChris]

...God does not provide humans with evidence for its existence...

God does not provide humans with "objective" evidence for God's existence. In fact, given the human condition, I don't know how God could provide "objective" evidence without forcing us to accept such evidence, thereby making our wills irrelevant.

...Modern epistemology requires evidence...

Modern epistemology requires evidence for some things, but it necessarily accepts many unprovable assumptions. Furthermore, "evidence" does not interpret itself; there are numerous and variant intepretations of "evidence" in whatever advanced field of study you care to examine. Modern epistemology does not provide us with an objective position from which to view reality as it is.

...Therefore, we cannot use modern epistemology to determine whether god exists...

Modern epistemology is incapable of demonstrating whether or not the universe constitutes its own explanation. Whether we choose the "God hypothesis" or whether we arbitrarily label some other option as the "default hypothesis," we are equally without "objective" evidence.

...His alternative approach is to accept axiomatically that god exists (justified in his view because this leads to greater hope for mankind than to deny that god exists) and then to “test� the axiom by living as though god does exist. Evidence gathered in this way will either confirm or disconfirm the axiom...

This probably comes as close to an accurate summarization as anything else you've written. However, you are neglecting the subjective part. I experience God as real, and so I cannot doubt God's existence and God's love. And I am far from alone with these subjective feelings. Many people--billions of people--have such subjective feelings. People who lack such experience will probably tend to explain those feelings by reference to some psychological quirk, but such folks are on the outside looking in, so to speak, and there is no reason why their (second-hand) interpretations should get priority over any first-hand interpretations.

[Flail]

...what impasse have you reached, what predicament are you in that makes you take the risk of jumping to conclusions without evidence?...

If there is no god, then materialism rules, and with materialism comes determinism, and with determinism comes the realization that we are not persons at all, but rather absurd wind-up toys.

I am convinced that I am not a wind-up toy, and theism is the only theoretical position which gives me a basis for believing myself to be something more than a wind-up doll. We are real because we matter to God and because God allows us to "be," not because we have been wound up to perform a prescripted dance. And moreover, I subjectively experience God as more real than anything else.

...hope should include everyone not just Christians...

I believe God is at work to save the whole world, every last person. Our life here does count for something, but ultimately our hope rests with God.

Which God is doing this work and why? What evidence do you have that the world needs to be saved and from what? What is it that one must do to be saved?

[EduChris]

...Which God is doing this work and why?...

There is only one God, the Creator, who works on the basis of creativity and love.

...What evidence do you have that the world needs to be saved and from what?...

In the long run, without intervention, we and our universe are all dead. Nothing matters.

...What is it that one must do to be saved?

Only God can save us. We can either cooperate with God and allow God to work through us, or we can resist God's work. God gives us these options so that we can be more than mere wind-up dolls, so that we can really matter to each other and to God.

[Board]

In the long run, without intervention, we and our universe are all dead.

True. Yet intervention outside of the known universe has not been shown to exist. So yes, we will all grow old and die. Our sun will one day grow old and die. Death is inevitable.

Nothing matters.

The previous statement does not mean that this has to be true. You are alive right now. I am alive right now. We can enjoy life and feelings and experiences. The inevitable death should not be dragging us into depression. It should be causing us to live our lives to the fullest! Do what makes you happy. Whatever matters to you, go do it!

In the end does what you did matter to the universe? Probably not... But it matters to you... to your family... to your friends...

[EduChris]

...inevitable death should not be dragging us into depression..Do what makes you happy. Whatever matters to you, go do it!...

Are you assuming something more than deterministic materialism here? What theoretical basis drives your (apparent) assumption that we are more than mere wind-up dolls, that we really can "pick and choose" things which "matter" to us?

[LiamOS]

Whether we are 'wind-up dolls' or not shouldn't affect how we live our lives.

[Flail]

...Which God is doing this work and why?...

There is only one God, the Creator, who works on the basis of creativity and love.

...What evidence do you have that the world needs to be saved and from what?...

In the long run, without intervention, we and our universe are all dead. Nothing matters.

...What is it that one must do to be saved?

Only God can save us. We can either cooperate with God and allow God to work through us, or we can resist God's work. God gives us these options so that we can be more than mere wind-up dolls, so that we can really matter to each other and to God.

Is everyone who is not a Christian a wind up toy? Does God only do his work thru Christians? Are the rest of us just getting in the way? Do we matter to you? Do we matter to God?

[EduChris]

Whether we are 'wind-up dolls' or not shouldn't affect how we live our lives.

Why shouldn't we try to work out some tentative and coherent theoretical basis for our self-perception, and for the sort of life we desire to lead?

And if our only tenable theoretical basis derives from the "God hypothesis," why would it be unreasonable to adopt that hypothesis, given that there is no basis in "objective evidence" for that or any alternate hypothesis?