Are the Jews Israel?
Simple question,any answers?
Are the Jews Israel?
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revelationtestament
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Post #61
"Are the Jews the chosen people of God,chosen Israel that many mainstream Christian Churches preach and teach?
Or are the chosen people of God NOT Jews?"
I want to take a stab at this. Jews is a nick name for the tribe of Judah, which was a separate country from Israel since the tribes split off. This left Judah and Benjamin alone in the south with the other 10 tribes largely to the north.
The other 10 tribes were spread all over the earth and are just now starting to regather. The tribe of Judah left largely alone in the south became the home of the Jews. So to answer the question, Israel won't really exist again until the other tribes regather.
Or are the chosen people of God NOT Jews?"
I want to take a stab at this. Jews is a nick name for the tribe of Judah, which was a separate country from Israel since the tribes split off. This left Judah and Benjamin alone in the south with the other 10 tribes largely to the north.
The other 10 tribes were spread all over the earth and are just now starting to regather. The tribe of Judah left largely alone in the south became the home of the Jews. So to answer the question, Israel won't really exist again until the other tribes regather.
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Shermana
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Post #62
There could have been members from all the other tribes in the Kingdom of Judah. As for the idea that all the other tribes are necessary for Israel to exist again, does that mean EVERY member of the tribes must be back? The question is whether the Jews are "Israel". They are most definitely a part of Israel. So thus, Israel can exist as long as they do, the other tribes would merely supplement the existence of Israel. Must every member of a family be alive for that family to exist? No? Then the same applies for Israel."The other 10 tribes were spread all over the earth and are just now starting to regather. The tribe of Judah left largely alone in the south became the home of the Jews. So to answer the question, Israel won't really exist again until the other tribes regather."
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Shermana
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Re: Are the Jews Israel?
Post #63You are confusing that with the KINGDOM of Israel, a completely different concept than the Tribe(s) of Israel. Why would you possibly conclude that Jesus was sending out fishers ONLY to the tribes that weren't part of his own Lineage?showme wrote:When the bible refers to Israel, most of the time it is referring to the 10 northern tribes, which included everyone except the tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi . The 3 tribes left to David were later referred to as jews, as in relating to Judah. In general, Israel refers to the lost 10 tribes, which were taken into bondage and dispersed throughout the world. These are the tribes that Yeshua sent out fishers of men to hunt. (Jer 16:16)
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cnorman18
A few remarks
Post #64First: The "ten lost tribes" were never entirely lost, and by the time of Jesus there were members of every tribe still living in Judea. Some examples: There is a mention of a widow of the tribe of Napthali in the NT; Paul claimed to be a member of the tribe of Benjamin; the Levites were obviously still around, in the persons of the Temple priesthood; and of course Jesus and his kin were of the tribe of Judah.
Second: It was rare, even in Jesus's day, for any Jew to know from which tribe he or she was descended. It is even rarer today. People with the surname Cohen and related names (Katz, e.g.) are Kohanes, or of the priestly line; those surnamed Levy and similar (Lebowitz, Levitch) are of the Levite tribe; everyone else is considered "Israelite" for ritual purposes, and very few indeed can claim to be of a specific tribe. (I know a man who is of the tribe of Issachar; when I asked how he knew this, he said, quote, "Duh. My last name is Issakharian." But he was very much the exception.)
Third: Those who don't know the meaning of the phrase "Chosen People" as it is understood in Jewish tradition -- which is the only context that matters -- ought not throw it around as if they did.
Fourth: Israel as a modern, sovereign, SECULAR state obviously exists. Though it is dear to Jews everywhere, it has little to do with the Jewish religion, for reasons I have often discussed elsewhere, in spite of the beliefs and wishes of members of other religions.
Fifth: Anything Jesus, Paul, or any of those guys said or wrote -- including any teachings from Revelation, etc., about the restoration of Israel and the End of the World and so on --holds no authority and is of no interest to Jews. We've done very well without concerning ourselves with Jesus for 2000 years, and that isn't going to change. We think about Jesus about as often as we think about the Buddha -- and yes, I AM qualified to speak for virtually all Jews on this subject.
Second: It was rare, even in Jesus's day, for any Jew to know from which tribe he or she was descended. It is even rarer today. People with the surname Cohen and related names (Katz, e.g.) are Kohanes, or of the priestly line; those surnamed Levy and similar (Lebowitz, Levitch) are of the Levite tribe; everyone else is considered "Israelite" for ritual purposes, and very few indeed can claim to be of a specific tribe. (I know a man who is of the tribe of Issachar; when I asked how he knew this, he said, quote, "Duh. My last name is Issakharian." But he was very much the exception.)
Third: Those who don't know the meaning of the phrase "Chosen People" as it is understood in Jewish tradition -- which is the only context that matters -- ought not throw it around as if they did.
Fourth: Israel as a modern, sovereign, SECULAR state obviously exists. Though it is dear to Jews everywhere, it has little to do with the Jewish religion, for reasons I have often discussed elsewhere, in spite of the beliefs and wishes of members of other religions.
Fifth: Anything Jesus, Paul, or any of those guys said or wrote -- including any teachings from Revelation, etc., about the restoration of Israel and the End of the World and so on --holds no authority and is of no interest to Jews. We've done very well without concerning ourselves with Jesus for 2000 years, and that isn't going to change. We think about Jesus about as often as we think about the Buddha -- and yes, I AM qualified to speak for virtually all Jews on this subject.
Re: Are the Jews Israel?
Post #65The problem of lineage would be a problem for Yeshua if you followed the reasoning that he was a product of a virgin birth. But let us use the inverted reasoning of the jews, and give him the lineage of his mother, and that he fit into the southern tribes, being Judah, Benjamin, and Levi, which would be considered under the term jewish. The jews in Jerusalem were not lost. Although the jews can be considered of the tribe of Jacob, and therefore of Israel, they are not the total of the "sons of Israel" that the "Lord" had banished into the "land of the north...", which were referred to Jer 16:14-18. The jews know who they are, the lost tribes of the "Kingdom of Israel", the northern tribes, having been sold into slavery, being lost, do not.Shermana wrote:You are confusing that with the KINGDOM of Israel, a completely different concept than the Tribe(s) of Israel. Why would you possibly conclude that Jesus was sending out fishers ONLY to the tribes that weren't part of his own Lineage?showme wrote:When the bible refers to Israel, most of the time it is referring to the 10 northern tribes, which included everyone except the tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi . The 3 tribes left to David were later referred to as jews, as in relating to Judah. In general, Israel refers to the lost 10 tribes, which were taken into bondage and dispersed throughout the world. These are the tribes that Yeshua sent out fishers of men to hunt. (Jer 16:16)
Feel free to update my understanding of the Kingdom of Israel. It has been 40 years since I studied the bible, and age is starting to creep up on me.
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cnorman18
Re: Are the Jews Israel?
Post #66Okay.
Feel free to update my understanding of the Kingdom of Israel. It has been 40 years since I studied the bible, and age is starting to creep up on me.
The Kingdom of Israel no longer exists. The modern secular democratic nation-state of Israel does.
One other point; ANY teachings about Jesus, who he came for, what he said or did, etc., are entirely irrelevant to Jews. We think about Jesus about as often as we think about the Buddha, and he has about as much to do with us.
Sorry to repeat myself, but this information apparently bears repeating.
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JoeyKnothead
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Re: Are the Jews Israel?
Post #67I respectfully request a clarification here, so that we can all be in full understanding...cnorman18 wrote:Okay.
Feel free to update my understanding of the Kingdom of Israel. It has been 40 years since I studied the bible, and age is starting to creep up on me.
The Kingdom of Israel no longer exists. The modern secular democratic nation-state of Israel does.
One other point; ANY teachings about Jesus, who he came for, what he said or did, etc., are entirely irrelevant to Jews. We think about Jesus about as often as we think about the Buddha, and he has about as much to do with us.
Sorry to repeat myself, but this information apparently bears repeating.
"Israel the Kingdom" (maybe as historically or theologically understood)
"Israel the Nation-State" (as it would be shown to dang sure not be the first'n there)
Difference?
I might be Teddy Roosevelt, but I ain't.
-Punkinhead Martin
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Re: Are the Jews Israel?
Post #68Everyone respects your legal right in this country to hold and express your views, but the discussion was with respect to the identification of "sons of Israel" who were banished to the north". (Jer 16:15-18) They "have polluted My land", and "I will first double repay their iniquity" and "I am going to send for many fishermen, declares the Lord, and they will fish for them;"cnorman18 wrote:Okay.
Feel free to update my understanding of the Kingdom of Israel. It has been 40 years since I studied the bible, and age is starting to creep up on me.
The Kingdom of Israel no longer exists. The modern secular democratic nation-state of Israel does.
One other point; ANY teachings about Jesus, who he came for, what he said or did, etc., are entirely irrelevant to Jews. We think about Jesus about as often as we think about the Buddha, and he has about as much to do with us.
Sorry to repeat myself, but this information apparently bears repeating.
The northern tribes were sold into bondage and bandished into foreign, Gentile countries, where they could be considered lost. They were banished because each one walked according to their own heart without listening to God. (Jer 16:12) When Zechariah speaks about Judah and Israel, he is talking about the southern tribes and the northern tribes. There is a break between Judah and Israel. (Ze 11:14) They are separated, yet the Lord will doubly repay their iniquity, and restore them to their own land. (Jer 16:15-18)
If you have been isolated over the last 80 years, I will let you know that millions of jews were killed in Germany, and Jerusalem has suffered multiple wars, with multiple casualties. I personally don't think the casualty count is finished, for the hunters haven't hunted them all down yet, and the Nations haven't confessed, "Our fathers have inherited nothing but falsehood". (Jer 16:19)
Plus, the lands haven't been fully restored to Israel. I think there probably more payment due on the account for Israel's abominations. You should hope that the account due is to the lost tribes of Israel and not to Judah (jews). I think it looks bad for both.
