What exactly is the christian fear of gay marriage?

[connermt]

This thread is meant for clarification purposes:
As a christian, what do you fear the legalization of gay marriage will do to the country, your faith and yourself personally?
Please provide examples of past issues where something was made legal and created a negative issue with your country, faith and/or yourself.

Of course there are extremes on each side, but the majority of people who are pro-legal gay marriage don't seem to much care what a church says, so long as their legal rights are adhered to just like eveyone else's.

I've looked at many responses to both sides and can honestly not see, other than hate or "being gay is gross", any legitimate reasons that would want one to say "gay people who care about each other and live in a relationship shouldn't have the say legal rights as straight people.

Any elightenment on the subject would be appreciated.

[His Name Is John]

This thread is meant for clarification purposes:
As a christian, what do you fear the legalization of gay marriage will do to the country, your faith and yourself personally?
Please provide examples of past issues where something was made legal and created a negative issue with your country, faith and/or yourself.

Of course there are extremes on each side, but the majority of people who are pro-legal gay marriage don't seem to much care what a church says, so long as their legal rights are adhered to just like eveyone else's.

I've looked at many responses to both sides and can honestly not see, other than hate or "being gay is gross", any legitimate reasons that would want one to say "gay people who care about each other and live in a relationship shouldn't have the say legal rights as straight people.

Any elightenment on the subject would be appreciated.

There is no Christian fear of gay marriage.
Itt is a popular misleading belief.
Christians are part of a Kingdom not born of this world.
Gay marriage or any other union not between a male and female does not reflect or cause problems for Christians or marriage as far as believers are concerned.

The world can do as it chooses but the results will not change real Christianity.

So you don't believe Jesus when he says:

'may your kingdom come, on earth as it is in heaven'?

While Jesus' kingdom isn't of this world, we should wish for it to be so. We should work that the kingdoms of this world better reflect the kingdom of heaven. Should we not try to make this world a better place?

[JoeyKnothead]

This thread is meant for clarification purposes:
As a christian, what do you fear the legalization of gay marriage will do to the country, your faith and yourself personally?
Please provide examples of past issues where something was made legal and created a negative issue with your country, faith and/or yourself.

Of course there are extremes on each side, but the majority of people who are pro-legal gay marriage don't seem to much care what a church says, so long as their legal rights are adhered to just like eveyone else's.

I've looked at many responses to both sides and can honestly not see, other than hate or "being gay is gross", any legitimate reasons that would want one to say "gay people who care about each other and live in a relationship shouldn't have the say legal rights as straight people.

Any elightenment on the subject would be appreciated.

There is no Christian fear of gay marriage.
Itt is a popular misleading belief.
Christians are part of a Kingdom not born of this world.
Gay marriage or any other union not between a male and female does not reflect or cause problems for Christians or marriage as far as believers are concerned.

The world can do as it chooses but the results will not change real Christianity.

So you don't believe Jesus when he says:

'may your kingdom come, on earth as it is in heaven'?

While Jesus' kingdom isn't of this world, we should wish for it to be so. We should work that the kingdoms of this world better reflect the kingdom of heaven. Should we not try to make this world a better place?

Not when your gettin' to Heaven means the rest of us gotta go through Hell to get ya there.

[His Name Is John]

So you don't believe Jesus when he says:

'may your kingdom come, on earth as it is in heaven'?

While Jesus' kingdom isn't of this world, we should wish for it to be so. We should work that the kingdoms of this world better reflect the kingdom of heaven. Should we not try to make this world a better place?

Not when your gettin' to Heaven means the rest of us gotta go through Hell to get ya there.

I laughed

[McCulloch]

I am a states rightist. I believe States should decide what they deem terms like "marriage" and "gender". I personally believe if a State wanted to vote to re-illegalize interracial marriage, it would be within their rights, just as it would be their responsibility for the social and economic backlash.

Is that to say that you don't believe in human rights? So if a sovereign state were to outlaw Islam, or Judaism that would be just fine with you.

Therefore, using Judicial Fiat to overturn the will of a majority state-constitution legal vote on one issue is an example of how the Democratic Republic can have its legal framework overruled by a Dictate in the name of "Civil rights".

Yes, I believe that human rights trump the legislature. And that is the way it should be.

Why should I not be able to marry 8 beautiful virgin 20 somethings?

The question is moot. Are there eight beautiful virgins left?

[connermt]

The question is moot. Are there eight beautiful virgins left?

Probably depends if the people were re-virginized, as the movement says.

[Jax Agnesson]

Dianaiad makes a strong case for protecting the rights of religious believers; and I am certainly in favour of that. But the behaviour of the Texas law enforcement was not only disgraceful, it was also unlawful, as appeal after appeal has established.
IOW, the Texas raid was not a result of the laws against polygamy or child abuse; nor was it a result of laws which require religious groups to behave within the laws of the state; rather is was a misapplication of those laws, born of prejudice against a religious minority.
Similarly prejudiced courts and police forces may in the future abuse the laws of any country to attack minority groups they do not like. (It happens all the time.) That doesn't mean religious minorities ought to oppose secular laws for fear that bigoted forces might apply such laws wrongly; rather it ought to be a warning to all minorities, religious, ethnic, sexual, political, artistic, etc. We must support each other's basic rights. Yes bigoted policemen and judges will abuse laws. The price of freedom is constant vigilance. And mutual defence.
But legal marriage is a civil societal institution, not a religious one. Abrahamic faith groups have no special claim on the customs and conventions of marriage.. If gays have the same marriage rights as heteros in the eyes of the law, there is no reason why religious groups should have to perform religious marriages they don't believe in. If some people use secular laws to provoke bigoted police forces to attack religious groups, then all who support the proper application of those laws should protest.
By this reasoning, I don't think Dianaiad's argument against gay marriage stands up. It would be akin to saying we can't allow people to have cars cos bank robbers use them for fast getaways.

[Flail]

This thread is meant for clarification purposes:
As a christian, what do you fear the legalization of gay marriage will do to the country, your faith and yourself personally?
Please provide examples of past issues where something was made legal and created a negative issue with your country, faith and/or yourself.

Of course there are extremes on each side, but the majority of people who are pro-legal gay marriage don't seem to much care what a church says, so long as their legal rights are adhered to just like eveyone else's.

I've looked at many responses to both sides and can honestly not see, other than hate or "being gay is gross", any legitimate reasons that would want one to say "gay people who care about each other and live in a relationship shouldn't have the say legal rights as straight people.

Any elightenment on the subject would be appreciated.

There is no Christian fear of gay marriage.
Itt is a popular misleading belief.
Christians are part of a Kingdom not born of this world.
Gay marriage or any other union not between a male and female does not reflect or cause problems for Christians or marriage as far as believers are concerned.

The world can do as it chooses but the results will not change real Christianity.

So you don't believe Jesus when he says:

'may your kingdom come, on earth as it is in heaven'?

While Jesus' kingdom isn't of this world, we should wish for it to be so. We should work that the kingdoms of this world better reflect the kingdom of heaven. Should we not try to make this world a better place?

The clear message to me in Jesus' teachings was that 'heaven on earth' can only be attained when we learn to devote all our attention altruistically toward each other, rather than to selfishly fawn over and bicker as to any particular God concept or perform worship rituals in hope of personal gain or heavenly reward. Imagine how the world would be if instead of so many of us going to church and performing rituals we all went to our needy 'neighbor' instead? Imagine how much revenue and human resource could be freed up and put to better use if instead of supporting our church we supported our neighbors. Religion divides us at the very tipping point of what should be bringing us together in commonality.

Do we not have more important matters at hand than the prevention of same gender human beings from expressing their love for one another; based upon nothing more than verse based scripturalism?

Jesus' message IMO was....judge not....live altruistically...treat well your neighbors....love your enemies, and realize that when you help someone in need you are loving God at the same time...none of that appears to have anything to do with the focused selfishness of Christianity and Islam, which, it seems to me, will never help us achieve 'heaven on earth' as Jesus had hoped.

[kayky]

I am a states rightist. I believe States should decide what they deem terms like "marriage" and "gender". I personally believe if a State wanted to vote to re-illegalize interracial marriage, it would be within their rights, just as it would be their responsibility for the social and economic backlash.

Therefore, using Judicial Fiat to overturn the will of a majority state-constitution legal vote on one issue is an example of how the Democratic Republic can have its legal framework overruled by a Dictate in the name of "Civil rights".

Civil rights are not a matter of states rights or popular vote. That's why we have a constitution and a supreme court. George Wallace didn't get this when he stood at the school doors to prevent black students from entering, and Johnson had to send in the National Guard. Do you think life has improved for African- Americans since then?

If the people want to vote for it to be allowed and for the government to change its definition of "marriage", that's within their rights too.

No. It isn't.

The Federal Government shouldn't be involved with marriage except to regulate the illegal, forced, underage, and fraudulent marriages. They should only be a backup when states will not enforce their own marriage laws. Why should I not be able to marry 8 beautiful virgin 20 somethings?

Are you saying that you have the prowess to convince 8 beautiful virgin 20 somethings to do this?

Recently, the Canadian government in November upheld their bans on Polygamy on the grounds that it can be used as a means of forced Muslim marriage and abuse of women. What a compelling argument. So therefore, no woman should be legally allowed to consentually marry a man who can support her along with his other wife because the system can be abused by Muslims due to government negligence on its own social responsibility of its own laws. What a great reason.

So why is polygamy not being advocated either? When do I get to return to the days of Solomon?

Would you like to be a woman in this situation? Why or why not?

[kayky]

rkrause: As far as our country goes, I believe God will hold our government reponsible for legalizing sin and there will be some form of punishment for the governments involvement in leading others to sin more. Not to mention the homosexuals relationship with God itself is harmed through sin.

Lots of things that Christians consider immoral are perfectly legal. What makes this particular "sin" so different? How will allowing gay marriage lead to an increase in sin among gay people or harm their relationship with God? To me it would have just the opposite effect, leading to more monogamy (fewer std's?) and more stable family situations. How can that not be a good thing?

[dianaiad]

Civil rights are not a matter of states rights or popular vote. That's why we have a constitution and a supreme court.

So....they are a matter of federal fiat and popular vote. You can't have this both ways, Kayky; either 'civil rights' are given by the culture in which humans find themselves (i.e., government) or they are 'imbued by their creator..." Which is it? If it is culture, then the people WITHIN that culture have the right to decide...and change...what those rights are. If it is inherent..or 'creator given,' then--who gets to tell us what they are? you?

George Wallace didn't get this when he stood at the school doors to prevent black students from entering, and Johnson had to send in the National Guard. Do you think life has improved for African- Americans since then?

Yep, thanks to the Republicans.

...........just an interjection there, because it's fun.....

If the people want to vote for it to be allowed and for the government to change its definition of "marriage", that's within their rights too.

No. It isn't. [/quote]

Which is it? Do the people have the right to vote for this, or not? And if they don't, which side of this idea do you fall on?

Oh, and finally, and this is a very serious question, not meant as mockery---much---who died and made you God, that you can declare what civil rights must consist of for the rest of us?

The Federal Government shouldn't be involved with marriage except to regulate the illegal, forced, underage, and fraudulent marriages. They should only be a backup when states will not enforce their own marriage laws. Why should I not be able to marry 8 beautiful virgin 20 somethings?

Are you saying that you have the prowess to convince 8 beautiful virgin 20 somethings to do this?

Well, if he doesn't, that's his problem, isn't it? Doesn't affect the civil rights issue one way or the other.

Recently, the Canadian government in November upheld their bans on Polygamy on the grounds that it can be used as a means of forced Muslim marriage and abuse of women. What a compelling argument. So therefore, no woman should be legally allowed to consentually marry a man who can support her along with his other wife because the system can be abused by Muslims due to government negligence on its own social responsibility of its own laws. What a great reason.

So why is polygamy not being advocated either? When do I get to return to the days of Solomon?

Would you like to be a woman in this situation? Why or why not?

Now here I CAN answer, since I am the descendent of four polygamous great grand-parents. I have their journals; one of my great-grandmothers was very much not happy---mostly because, as the second wife during a rather bad time, she had to live by herself in a very small cabin in the Idaho woods. She gave birth, by herself, to her firstborn son--and had to bury him that afternoon. She bore, and raised, three children on her own; my mother's father being one of them. Her unhappiness was caused, not by her husband, but by the government that wouldn't allow her to be with him.

The other three? They were fine with it, until the government declared the system to be wrong, put their husbands in prison and disbanded their families. Y'see, at THAT time, the polygamous women were their own cultures; the idea was that each woman could develop her own talents AND raise healthy children; you know. like men do? The women who loved 'home' work did that, and cared for children. If you wanted to be a physician...you could be one. You want to be a writer, a lawyer, a musician, a politician? Sure, no problem--and your family was whole, because someone with the talent to do what needed doing was THERE to do it.

Unfortunately, that's not how polygamy seems to be working nowadays, so....no, I wouldn't want to be in a present day polygamous household. I don't see anybody currently who could pull it off.