6000 years of history

[RonE]

6000 years of recorded history, it seems to me that if there were gods (or God), by now we would all know. Science has found no place for god in any hypothesis explaining the laws of nature.

We are presented with two alternatives, either there are no gods or they are hiding, playing tricks on us trying to test us, but really why would such powerful beings need or want to do that. Occam’s razor points us to the obvious answer, simple… no one is there.

Let’s move out of kindergarten and make believe, let’s feed the poor and starving, let’s put hate and war out of business.

What say you?

[Elijah John]

[Replying to post 55 by Wordleymaster1]

.... Evil is nothing but our choice to violate the rights of others, ....

I agree with your definition of evil, but would add to rights "well being " of others.

Also, I think that respect for the rights and well being of others, and the promotion thereof = the benevolent will of God. That is my take on it anyway, as a Theist and a Deist.

[Wordleymaster1]

[Replying to post 57 by ThePainefulTruth]

Evil is nothing but our choice to violate the rights of others

Evil is what you say is evil at the time.

If God exists, we were created (evolved) in this universe with self-aware free will, which is the ability to choose between good and evil.

Says who?

[ThePainefulTruth]

[Replying to post 55 by Wordleymaster1]

.... Evil is nothing but our choice to violate the rights of others, ....

I agree with your definition of evil, but would add to rights "well being " of others.

Well being is a right? So if my well being is poor (whose def.?) I have a right to take what I need from someone else to correct the problem? By force? This can't be an issue of morality, but could easily be called an issue of virtue. We must not use the law to enforce it, but the use of social pressure is fair game to promote charity.

Also, I think that respect for the rights and well being of others, and the promotion thereof = the benevolent will of God. That is my take on it anyway, as a Theist and a Deist.

Theist take, mebbe.

[ThePainefulTruth]

[Replying to post 57 by ThePainefulTruth]

Evil is nothing but our choice to violate the rights of others

Evil is what you say is evil at the time.

The mantra of the moral relativist.

If God exists, we were created (evolved) in this universe with self-aware free will, which is the ability to choose between good and evil.

Says who?

Says our self-awareness. Our self-awareness makes us aware of the effect of our violation of the rights of others by automatically putting ourselves in their shoes. Evil is when we force ourselves to suppress that innate knowledge of the suffering we cause.

[1213]

If I were to refer to someone on this forum as a fool I'm sure they would get quite upset and report me and probably get me slapped by a moderator. But, we seem to overlook this offense when done through scripture (bible babble). I find that quite offensive, hopefully you can restrict the BB to the huddle in the future. As others on this site have observed when a theist resorts to scripture you know 1)they have nothing to offer 2)further conversation with them is pointless.

I think that scripture shows that God is not hiding from us. He can be seen from his actions (similarly as gravity can be seen by its influence).

And I am sorry if you feel that I said through scripture that you are fool. I didn’t assume that you think you are unrighteous.

[ThePainefulTruth]

[Replying to post 63 by 1213]

Scripture shows that men can put words in God's mouth. It's only holy because men say it is, after they wrote it.

[RonE]

[Replying to post 63 by 1213]

I might have over reacted a bit, normally I ignore scripture in these posts this one caught my eye.

We seem to agree on this:

He can be seen from his actions (similarly as gravity can be seen by its influence).

My point to the OP was that we should see these actions, in many cases they should result in measurable/observable differences. But, we don't see those results or not the results expected. For instance a 2005 study about the "morality" of developed democracies debunks the theist belief that religion results in a society with less dysfunction ( http://moses.creighton.edu/jrs/2005/2005-11.pdf ). The STEP project ("Study of the Therapeutic Effects of Intercessory Prayer (STEP)") in 2006. The STEP, commonly called the "Templeton Foundation prayer study" found no effect from prayer in their study.

These types of serious studies have (as far as I know) not found any evidence, 1st or 2nd hand, which would cause us to believe there is a god.

As further reference you might find "The Journal of Religion & Society" and interesting website.

[ttruscott]

... How many times must I say it, I agree that a revealed God is unreasonable.

What is the intellectual impediment to believing that GOD selectively reveals HIMself to those who have chosen by their free will to put their faith in HIS claims but not to those who rejected HIS claims in away that He warned made them eternally evil???

The intellectual impediment is a total lack of evidence (other that the hearsay of fallible, corruptible humans) that any god has ever revealed itself to anyone, or that there has ever been a supernatural event in this natural universe. What you're saying is equivalent to, "for you to believe, you first have to believe." This also goes against the proposition that God would give us the ability to reason, and then require that we discard that gift.

I didn't ask about the intellectual impediment to any belief which you answered but to the belief that GOD selectively reveals HIMself to some and not others which, if true, is the answer as to why some have evidence and some do not...that lack of proof that HE did not reveal HIMself to one then says nothing about what HE has done for others.

As for no evidence that any god has revealed HIMself, I would contend that there is some evidence in the Bible. Your discounting the Bible as 'the hearsay of fallible, corruptible humans' does not in fact prove it is not evidence, just that you do not accept it as reliable.

Peace, Ted

[ttruscott]

We humans are a rather nasty lot, all things considered.

You don't say?

I wonder why that is...It couldn't possibly be because some higher power *intentionally* created us that way.

IF He is loving and holy this can't be - all evil must have been created by one of us... If HE is not, then who cares, we are all doomed!

Peace, Ted

Fallacy.
If God didn't create evil He allowed it to be created. One is just as evil and wrong as the other. Either He created it (evil) or didn't prevent it from being created (evil).
It's all nice and stuff to think God can do no wrong and that God can't create evil attributing it all to us, but that's not the case if God is truly all powerful. If He's not omnipotent, what's the point?

"Either He created it (evil) or didn't prevent it from being created (evil)." well of course this is exactly what I wrote and what I have contended here for the last 2 years - GOD allowed the creation of evil by the people HE created. BUT HE is NOT guilty of sin for this as you suggest because the maker of the match is not responsible for the arsonists flames.

GOD created us ingenuously innocent with the ability to make true free will decisions to bond with HIM or to reject HIM. Our free will was necessary for our love to be real and our holiness to be real as a forced love and a forced holiness is not at all loving or holy. That this also allowed evil was prepared for and is now being worked out.

And sorry, none of this can be solved by power any more than an atom bomb can play Mozart.

Peace, Ted

[ThePainefulTruth]

[Replying to post 66 by ttruscott]

The Bible is hearsay which is worthless as evidence, and in this case it's 2-3000 year old hearsay. BTW, how does God prove to anyone that it is God being....what....heard, seen....felt, instead of it being the manifestation of one's desires? Most can't even see a traumatic event in real life and recall all the details correctly.

I really think you're dismissing the fact that God only "reveals" Itself to so very few far too easily. If God wanted the Israelites to know the 10 Commandments came from It, It should have moved the mountaintop and placed it in front of the Israelites and carved them with a hand coming from the pillar of fire in 50' letters. Then, by God, I bet they wouldn't have made that golden calf. Every year for the last 2000, there could have been a video flashed from the Moon onto the sky of Jesus being crucified and resurrected. If God wanted us to know, then God would make sure that we indeed do KNOW. In fact, given it's importance, that probably should have been done starting 100,000 years ago

If your preacher came to you and said that God wants you to sacrifice one of your children, would you? Why not? You believe all these prophets from 2 millennia ago who want to tell you how to save your soul, and the souls of your children. And there is human sacrifice in the Bible, not the least of which was Jesus--supposedly.