Jehovah's Witnesses and 1914

[Justin108]

They now insist that Jesus did return but he is invisible.

If so, how would they know he has returned?

If you are refering to JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES we believe know because of the signs Jesus provided to identify the time (see Mat 24, Lk 21, Mk 14) and we believe it started in 1914 because of our interpretation of bible chronology (see link below).

Learn more
https://www.jw.org/en/publications/book ... -prophecy/


JW

1. What exactly happened in 1914 that points to Matthew 24, Luke 21 and Mark 14?

2. Was 1914 unique in this regard? For example, Luke 21 mentions "wars and uprisings". In what way is 1914 unique in terms of wars and uprisings?

3. According to (my understanding of) Jehovah's Witnesses' claims, Jesus' rule from 1914 is hidden and behind the scenes. His rule is invisible to most of us. Did Jehovah's Witnesses predict that Jesus' rule would be behind the scenes from the start? Or did they initially believe that Jesus' rule will be clearly apparent to everyone, and only after 1914 when no Jesus was to be found did they change their conclusion to "well Jesus must be doing it in heaven where no one can see"?

4. Do you consider the possibility that your interpretation might be wrong and that Jesus did not return in 1914? Or do you believe that it is an indisputable fact that Jesus returned in 1914?

[TRANSPONDER]

I hardly need say that nobody who is not already a believer is going to see that as anything but self - delusionary.

So you propose that everyone that disagrees with you on this point and believes they have seen the fulfillment of bible prophecy is delusional, gullible and lady? Ad hominem duly noted.


JW








RELATED POSTS

What is "argumentum ad populum"?
viewtopic.php?p=1048524#p1048524

What is circular reasoning [begging the question]?
url=viewtopic.php?p=1027604#p1027604

What is the fallacy of equivocation [first & last] ?
viewtopic.php?p=1020274#p1020274

What is an of ah hoc fallacy [contradictions] ?
viewtopic.php?p=1058581#p1058581

What is the fallacy of composition [true christian]?
viewtopic.php?p=1026784#p1026784

To learn more please go to other posts related to...

LOGIC , FALLACIES and ... EVIDENCE and ...

No, though I can see why it looks that way to you. The actual argument is that humans are known to be prone to seeing patters where there are none (in particular) and deluding themselves into seeing resultant effects where there really are none. It is the old problem of 'counting the hits (never mind inventing the hits) and ignoring the misses; shooting the arrow into the wall and painting the target around it, or the Bible -apologetic of 'joining the dots', which involved starting with the picture they want, selecting the dots that seem to match and joining them up "There the picture was hidden there all the time'.

It is the known human ability to fool themselves into seeing an effect or result that isn't really there. It is called 'self delusion' and can only be shown up by deliberate testing of claims to see whether there is a real result. The believers don't do that and find ways of dismissing it, such as accusing people of bias or personal attacks. Very common that

The results speak for themselves. Predictions, messages from aliens and claims of various kinds (just look at the Millennium panic) fail and that's the end of it. They were wrong. But the truly deluded (at best) just come up with more predictions or messages. It's the same with hidden messages in Shakespeare, the Bible or crop circles.

I could go into the way that double blind tests or the famous test of the same astrological reading being given to a class of people and they all thought it fitted them. That works as well at random as being deliberately targeted to delude.

But the thing about Bible prophecy is not the specific ones that failed (like Tyre, Babylon or Jesus' return) or even rummaging out prophecies that were never intended, but the end of world ones that repeatedly fail or don't come about, but the self - delusion continues when it fails repeatedly. Nothing happens, but the dluded (or deluder) keeps saying 'wait - it'll happen, you'll see'. But after 100 years and a dozen failures, it wears a bit thin. It is time to point out to anyone one interested the reasons why these various prophecy claims carry no weight or credibility. It is quite familiar for the victim (of their own delusions, not me) to feel attacked if anyone points to the fallacious beliefs they hold and so they lash out with accusations of persecution, hate or personal attacks.

It is (as I explained above) a reaction to posting claims of this or that and arguing that the claims don't stand up to scrutiny. It isn't personal and never was.

"I'm not trying to rob you, I'm trying to help you." (Gandalf)

[JehovahsWitness]

The actual argument is that humans are known to be prone to seeing patters where there are none (in particular) and deluding themselves into seeing resultant effects where there really are none.

Agreed. Are you accusing Jehovahs Witnesses of this? If so what is the evidence you propose in this regard? (Please be specific as in, what was said by JWs and what patterns they allegedly saw that you can prove did not in fact exist)

[TRANSPONDER]

No. I was explaining the various ways that people cvan delude themselves. Patterns (1)/Joining the dots is just one (specific example the 'evidence' for the Moses/Sinai site) method. selected data on medical responses is another, and forget about the selecting of data out of context (if not fiddled) to support some pseudo -science. I mentioned astrology, but there are others.

The failed prophecies are a different delusion altogether and frankly easier to see, and the trick there is not to select 'evidence' to fit the pattern, but to dismiss unwelcome evidence or rather, ignore the previous failures and focus on the latest claim, Or (another favourite) to claim that it has happened but not so's you'd notice, and that is as specific as you like and has been posted by you. Jesus has come again and invisibly in the form of Christianity.

Good luck with that one. What about the coming on clouds, trumpets and opening graves, sheep and goats and winnowing fan?

"I thought that was metaphorical."

Bottom line, the second coming and End of the world, Judgement and We-yall seeing which denominations we bet on being saved and the rest pitchforked into Gehenna (1a) "I won!! I was the only one bet on the Charismatic -Millennialist Pentecostalists with a dogma of what 'Aios' actually meant. Where do I collect my winnings?"

That's wearing very thin by now and we can even make jokes about it, by Zarquon, and the same goes for any claim that it's going to happen any day now, trust us, and keep paying in, as well as the Lukquine suspicion that the Kingdom of God wasn't going to happen with Jesus returning as Luke knew in his day all Jesus' followers were good and dead by a century so he suggested the 'kingdom' had already come, but nobody noticed.

So good luck with that one, as well. I will continue to point to failed prediction of the end of world and the very noticeable kind they had to apologise for. They didn't try to pass it off as current events and extant Christianity and frankly I don't think we should wear it when you try to,

(1) of course 'patterns' is what I missed. (1a) I know that's not your doctrine, but it's a popular belief. .

[JehovahsWitness]

No. I was explaining the various ways that people cvan delude themselves.

That is self evident, however proving the bible accounts were the result of some mass delusion will be harder to prove and disproving prophecy said to have been fulfilled in the spirit realm, impossible. Unless you are suggesting you can do the impossible, such generalities, have little practical place in such a specific topic drive debate.

The failed prophecies are a different delusion altogether and frankly easier to see ...

This is of no concern to me as one of Jehovah Witnesses as we have never made any prophecies but have pointed to already biblical existing prophecies. The fulfillment of what might be considered "verifiable prophecy" still comes down to interpretation which is again essentially unfalsifiable (whose to say if the writer wrote "Tyre" but that was in fact a referencing to Rome?)

As for the rest of what you wrote, I found nothing specific to challenge, which may or may not have been your goal. I take it that you are not claiming Jehovahs Witnesses are constantly presenting a date for the end of the world, which is not the case.




JW

To learn more please go to other posts related to...

JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES , FALSE PROPHETS and ...FAILED PREDICTIONS,

[TRANSPONDER]

No. I was explaining the various ways that people cvan delude themselves.

That is self evident, however proving the bible accounts were the result of some mass delusion will be harder to prove and disproving prophecy said to have been fulfilled in the spirit realm, impossible. Unless you are suggesting you can do the impossible, such generalities, have little practical place in such a specific topic drive debate.

The failed prophecies are a different delusion altogether and frankly easier to see ...

This is of no concern to me as one of Jehovah Witnesses as we have never made any prophecies but have pointed to already biblical existing prophecies. The fulfillment of what might be considered "verifiable prophecy" still comes down to interpretation which is again essentially unfalsifiable (whose to say if the writer wrote "Tyre" but that was in fact a referencing to Rome?)

As for the rest of what you wrote, I found nothing specific to challenge, which may or may not have been your goal. I take it that you are not claiming Jehovahs Witnesses are constantly presenting a date for the end of the world, which is not the case.




JW

To learn more please go to other posts related to...

JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES , FALSE PROPHETS and ...FAILED PREDICTIONS,

The first is a strawman argument. I am not arguing that the Bible accounts are the result of mass delusion, but I am saying that detecting prophecy coming true by matching selected and Interpreted recent events to something that looks similar in the Bible is delusionary in a way that is well known and the mechanisms of self delusion are understood.

The second is fiddling with words. The prophecy in the Bible is a fixed one (Jesus coming and some sort of end of world - as we know it - coming about). But the prophecy is in pointing to dates when this was supposed to happen and it either didn't or, as you suggest it did but in a way that doesn't make any actual difference to anything. Really JW, it is hardly likely to satisfy prophecy by predicting the second coming as the appearance of Christianity. Jesus has to make more of a show than that.

[JehovahsWitness]

... prophecy is in pointing to dates when this was supposed to happen ...

I don't know of any prophecy in the bible that mentions a date when an event is supposed to happen, that rests with the interpretation.

... Really JW, it is hardly likely to satisfy prophecy by predicting the second coming as the appearance of Christianity. Jesus has to make more of a show than that.

JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES do not interpret the second coming of Christ to refer to "as the appearance of Christianity", so I am not sure why you address this point to me.




JW

[TRANSPONDER]

... prophecy is in pointing to dates when this was supposed to happen ...

I don't know of any prophecy in the bible that mentions a date when an event is supposed to happen, that rests with the interpretation.

... Really JW, it is hardly likely to satisfy prophecy by predicting the second coming as the appearance of Christianity. Jesus has to make more of a show than that.

JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES do not interpret the second coming of Christ to refer to "as the appearance of Christianity", so I am not sure why you address this point to me.




JW

Sorry, but the constant wriggling is entertaining. It isn't Biblical dates as prophecy but JW predicted dates; many of them and all wrong. In fact if they could have been drawn from the Bible it wouldn't be the prophecies of the JW spokesperson, so that mereely proves my point.

As for the other, jet me explain.

I refer to a post of yours...

JehovahsWitness wrote:
Justin108 wrote:
JehovahsWitness wrote:
If you are refering to JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES we believe know because of the signs Jesus provided to identify the time (see Mat 24, Lk 21, Mk [strike]14[/strike] 13)

JW
1. What exactly happened in 1914 that points to Matthew 24, Luke 21 and Mark 14?

If you read what I said we (Jehovah's Witnesses) believe that the scriptures provide information as to a "sign" that identify "the time" or the period (often refered to as "the last days") meaning a period of time that leads directly to the great tribulation (or the end of the system of things).

The date 1914 cannot in our opinion, specifically be pinpointed from this "composite sign".

as I said above
"we believe [Christ's rule] started in 1914 because of our interpretation of bible chronology (see link below).

Learn more
https://www.jw.org/en/publications/book ... year-bible... "


The point here is passing off the non appearance of Jesus as a having happened (1914) and still a sort of 2nd coming/End times/Last days still ongoing and as I said, good luck getting anyone else to believe that this is what was promised in the Gospels with Jesus coming on the clouds, complete with marching band with the dumbfounded Sanhedrin and 'some oif' his disciples still being alive to see it.

That is why I referred to Luke trying to suggest that the kingdom as promised had happened with the start of Christianity, not that this was the JW argument.

[JehovahsWitness]

It isn't Biblical dates as prophecy but JW predicted dates; many of them and all wrong.

Well it is no secret we have made predictions in the past based on our understanding of bible prophecy that turned out to be incorrect.

These were rarely date specific (I'm sure you know the difference between a date and a year). We are careful to learn from our past mistakes and have not made and year specific predictions for many decades. We do believe the end of this present system is near, but recognise we cannot give a date or even a year.

That said, I don't know many non-witnesses that would be able to prove where JWs go wrong in terms of interpretation of biblical time prophecies since 1) most people are simply not familiar enough about Jehovah's Witness lexicon or hermeneutics ( bible interpretation) to do so. In short , they dont know what we are talking about in the first place. And ... 2) Many of our interpretations refer to events in the supernatural realm which is essentally unfalsifiable.

Case in point the end of the gentile times in 1914 and the subsequent parousia, which to this day we hold to be true. You are most welcome to try and prove us wrong. Of course you'd first have to explain what we mean and then go in to falsify it. I do believe you mentioned something being "entertaining", I have nothing against watching you try the above.

[TRANSPONDER]

It isn't Biblical dates as prophecy but JW predicted dates; many of them and all wrong.

Well it is no secret we have made predictions in the past based on our understanding of bible prophecy that turned out to be incorrect.

These were rarely date specific (I'm sure you know the difference between a date and a year). We are careful to learn from our past mistakes and have not made and year specific predictions for many decades. We do believe the end of this present system is near, but recognise we cannot give a date or even a year.

That said, I don't know many non-witnesses that would be able to prove where JWs go wrong in terms of interpretation of biblical time prophecies since 1) most people are simply not familiar enough about Jehovah's Witness lexicon or hermeneutics ( bible interpretation) to do so. In short , they dont know what we are talking about in the first place. And ... 2) Many of our interpretations refer to events in the supernatural realm which is essentally unfalsifiable.

Case in point the end of the gentile times in 1914 and the subsequent parousia, which to this day we hold to be true. You are most welcome to try and prove us wrong. Of course you'd first have to explain what we mean and then go in to falsify it. I do believe you mentioned something being "entertaining", I have nothing against watching you try the above.

All I'm hearing is damage limitation, excuses and crying wolf. (1), as they say. The predictions were wrong, they were admitted to be wrong, and since then are kept so vague as to be meaningless (just as in natural causes and processes and events that would happen the same way without a god, but believers claiming a god behind it). The thing is, it's not what you want to believe or even what I just have to dismiss as without credibility, but what the reader will believe (given, as I always say, that their mind isn't made up already) on the Other side of the argument being given; because events since 1914 (others might say the decision to re - establish the Israeli state is the date the prophecy starts being Fulfilled) can be vaguely matched to the Bible (one apologist on the former board argued a reference to tents of the soldiers- Hebrews or enemy I can't recall which - "coming to pass" with building going on in modern Israel) and the good old 'prove me wrong' which (being translated) means 'If I deny everything and insist I'm right, I win'. I'm not falling for that one.

It's also misdirection to argue that anyone (including me) may be unfamiliar with JW claims and arguments. It's the same fallacy as 'atheists have to define God'.... let me explain. The 'atheists must explain what they mean by God' demand is false. Atheists do not have to guess the other person's argument; it is for the apologist to set out their stall and the atheist then critiques it because the burden of proof in on the claimant. What this means is that the doubter and scoffer (bows from the waist) does not have to know any of your arguments beforehand, especially as who knows what you might make up ad hoc? You (and I) just have to explain their case and the other person then has to consider it. They do not have any obligation to any expertise or even working knowledge of the other person's views or beliefs before the debate.

Though of course it helps if the have a working knowledge of science, history, logic, etc. as that saves a lot of explanation. So where this ends up is I have no idea what you mean by the end of the gentile times and it's up to you to clarify (2). I'd put that as coincidental with the start of Christianity, rather as Luke suggests (the kingdom of God is within you...i.e the 2nd coming isn't going to happen; it's already here). Which is how I see this excuse and evasion, frankly of making the prophecy so vague that whatever is happening is prophecy coming true.

It's almost a stock atheist apologetic that 'wars and rumours of wars'is not a prophecy at all. No more than that 'Rain will fall here and there, doggies will poo on the pavement and lotteries will be won."

"Wah!! Prophecy".

(1) or "I'll win this time, you'll see!". or dammit "When Jesus comes in Pow'r, you'll wish you'd listened to me!"

(2) and you won't of course try to pull 'Oh, if I have to explain everything, it's a waste of time arguing with you!" (Flounce and count it as a win) I've seen it a lot of times and I will bet that you are better than that.

[JehovahsWitness]

Well it is no secret we have made predictions in the past based on our understanding of bible prophecy that turned out to be incorrect.

All I'm hearing is damage limitation...

Admitting facts may well have that effect, we have no problem with that.

If you would like to attempt to prove what we presently believe about 1914 is wrong, be my guest. Please be so kind as to mention which JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES belief you are challenging in in this regard as per the OP (thus far as I can see you are objecting to what "some people", various other religious groups or "one apologist" propose ) .


JW