Christians, what would it take?

[Inigo Montoya]

What would have to happen for you Christians to abandon your beliefs in God, miracles, the accuracy of the Bible's stories, etc.?

We have a couple panentheists, at least one Muslim, and heaven knows what else frequenting this subforum; you folk feel free to chime in on your respective versions of "God/god" and apply the OP to it as you see fit.

On a personal note, I'm especially anxious to hear from Ted and FtK, Goose and BThread.

[Willum]

[Replying to post 60 by liamconnor]

No, I think my theory is adequately explained using the Bible and only the Bible.
Jesus vs. the Ten Commandments in a showdown that proved once and for all Jesus was at best an agent of Rome, at worst a false prophet, and most likely completely made up.

Haven't you been following the discussion?
I feel like I've been repeating myself.

I am afraid I can't make it anymore simple.

Sounds like the simpler and more historical solution is that Jews had various opinions regarding foreign taxes, as they had various views on the afterlife.

Well, yeah, to someone who doesn't want to face the idea they've been worshiping a false god, it would.
But to an objective observer, Occam's Razor fits,and they'd see that pious Jews would have only one opinion about the commandments: FOLLOW THEM.

[JehovahsWitness]

I am the LORD thy God, who brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. Thou shalt have no other gods before Me.

Exodus 20:2

Emphasis MINE

QUESTION: Did the paying of taxes violate the First Commandment?

In Exodus 20 verse 3 YHWH (Yahweh/Jehovah) states that the Israelites were to have other gods "before me" (NIV). What did that mean? Various translations render the verse as follows

• Do not worship any god except me. (CEV)
• "Worship no god but me. (GNT)
• You are to have no other gods besides me. (ISV)

So evidently the first commandment was that the Israelites were to worship ONLY Yaweh (Jehovah) and were not consider anyone or anything other than Him their God. One dictionary defines "worship" as

WORSHIP
- to render religious reverence and homage, as to a deity.

- to attend services of divine worship.

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/worship?s=t

So the Jews were not to attend pagan religious services or render hommage to anyone "as to a diety". In short they were to perform no act that would normally be exclusively for Jehovah. For example offer a sacrifice to Caesar, offer incense to a foreign god, bow down in worship* to an animal or partake in religious festivals of pagans.

Could the paying of taxes with coins engraved with images of pagan gods be considered making someone else "their god"

Paying of taxes have never been considered as a religious act and there is nothing in the bible to indicate that doing so (even the payment involved coins engraved with pagan god) violated the first commandment.

• The Jews had long lived in servitude to foreign authorities that had their own coinage and currencies. Roman coins in Jesus day bore engravements of their Emperors and of their pagan gods. The possession, use or exchange of those coins however did not constitute a religious act "to a deity" but the rather the exchange of a currency for a good or service. Thus the paying of taxes, even using coinage minted with pagan symbolism, was not considered an evidence that the tax payer worshipped or considered another Roman gods their God.

A Roman Denairus engraved with the head of Tiberius Caesar

CONCLUSION If we are to respect both the meaning of words and the explicit statements in the Mosaic law there is no way to reasonably conclude that the paying of taxes with engraved foreign coins, constitutes making the authority one's god and violates the first commandment.

NOTE: No God fearing Jew however would attend services of the worship of Pagan gods and Christian's were viciously persecuted because they refused to offer a pinch of incense on an alter in recognition of Caesar as a god. So the Roman authorities did have ceremonies that would compromise the faith of loyal servants of Jehovah (YHWH) but taxes were not one of them.

[JehovahsWitness]

PROHIBITION OF IDOLATRY

Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image [...] Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them

— Exodus 20:4-6 (KJV)

Emphasis MINE


The 2nd of the Ten Commandments prohibited an Israelite from making, bowing or serving (worshipping) of idols . An IDOL has been defined as an image or other material object representing a deity to which religious worship is addressed..

Was the possession of coins engraved with PAGAN GODS considered idolatrous?

While no god fearing Jew would out of principle, buy or possess an idol (if only for fear of being one day accused of worshipping it) the prohibition was only against making, bowing and worshiping (serving) idols. Roman coins, were not made (minted) by Israelites, they were made by Romans. No god fearing Jew would bow before a coin and they certainly didn't serve (worship) the coins. As long as an Israelite avoided all the above they could not be accused of violating the second commandment.

CONCLUSION: The possession or use of graven coins, even those with pagan imagary does not violate the explicit statements in the second commandment which prohibited only the acts of fabrication, bowing and worshipping. The law has no bearing on the use of coins with pagan imagery for non-religious activities such as commerce or taxation.

JW

See below for a note on [TAXES, TRIBUTES AND HONOR ]

[Willum]

[Replying to post 63 by JehovahsWitness]

Don't you find it noble how, rather than utilize blasphemous graven images of gods disrespecting Yahweh, to pay blasphemous tithes that supported a nation of other gods, the Jews chose death and Diaspora?

I mean, have you studied the Diaspora? It is hideous, and all because they wouldn't do what you clearly think is OK: Render to Caesar his coins.

I can't help but think, maybe, just maybe, the Jews believed in their own religion.

[imhereforyou]

For me, it was being exposed to other ideals and people, but mostly I saw how hateful and down right terrible many claimed "Christians" are to each other on here and other online communities.

[JehovahsWitness]

[NOTE to Post # 62 by JehovahsWitness]



TAXES, TRIBUTES AND HONOR

A TRIBUTE

1.a gift, testimonial, compliment, or the like, given as due or in acknowledgment of gratitude or esteem.
2.a stated sum or other valuable consideration paid by one sovereign or state to another in acknowledgment of subjugation or as the price of peace, security, protection, or the like.
3.a rent, tax, or the like, as that paid by a subject to a sovereign.
http://www.dictionary.com/browse/tribute?s=t

The Jewish people were often subject to foreign authorities. After the fall of Jerusalem in the 6th century BCE they were obliged to live in servitude and this involved paying tributes and taxes. Notice however that a tribute is not offered in recognition that the receiver is a "god" nor is it a religious act of adoration. Thus the offering of a gift or a tribute or the paying of rent or taxes, even with coins graven with pagan gods or emperors in no way violates the first or the second commandments.

The act of bowing or prostrating oneself before an elder or a dignitary was common throughout history indeed the Greek word translated as "worship" actually encompasses the idea of bowing as a sign of respect and recognition of a another's position, not as a god, but as an individual of power. Thus we often read in the bible of individuals "bowing low" before a Prophet or a King and in Exodus 18:7 we read of Moses bowing before his Father-in-Law. This show of respect did not violate the 2nd commandement as it was not a religious act in recognition that that one is a god.

[liamconnor]

[Replying to post 61 by Willum]

So you accept that Rome made up a god for the Jews, and then persecuted them for worshiping it?!

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 63 by JehovahsWitness]

Don't you find it noble how, rather than utilize blasphemous graven images of gods disrespecting Yahweh, to pay blasphemous tithes that supported a nation of other gods, the Jews chose death and Diaspora?

I mean, have you studied the Diaspora? It is hideous, and all because they wouldn't do what you clearly think is OK: Render to Caesar his coins.

I can't help but think, maybe, just maybe, the Jews believed in their own religion.

Are you here referring to a particular historic event? If so, can you tell me specifically what event that is? Thanks.


JW

[Willum]

So, in conclusion, even demonstrating Jesus defied the Commandments is not sufficient for these Christians to abandon their beliefs. There is always some denial or evasion.

Continuing the discussion, after having shown this:

So just what would have to happen for you Christians to abandon your beliefs in God, miracles, the accuracy of the Bible's stories, etc.?

[liamconnor]

So, in conclusion, even demonstrating Jesus defied the Commandments is not sufficient for these Christians to abandon their beliefs. There is always some denial or evasion.

Continuing the discussion, after having shown this:

So just what would have to happen for you Christians to abandon your beliefs in God, miracles, the accuracy of the Bible's stories, etc.?

Umm...where are we getting this consensus? No. You do not get to close the books with your own epilogue.

Jesus defied YOUR beliefs. It does not thereby follow that he disobeyed God.