How do I determine what God requires of me?

[McCulloch]

I have posted what I think is the single most important issue to debate.

To me, the second most important issue is this. If there is a God, how do I determine what God requires of me? If your answer involves something that is from human agency, a book or an organization, then the question remains, "How do I know that the book's authors or the organization's leaders authoritatively speak for God?"

How do I determine what God requires of me?

[ST_JB]

Yes, if I were to become convinced of God's existence, it would seem to be an important thing to know what that God wanted from me, if anything. How does a believer discriminate among the thousands who are presented as god's messengers? I think you have restated the question very well.

There are thousands or millions who claim to be “representatives” of god or gods.

Are they all “true” or “official” representatives or are some of them misguided, mistaken, deluded, or deceitful?

Unless all are true, some means of distinguishing which, if any, ARE true is essential.

What is the means of distinguishing a true “representative of god(s)” from a false representative, with CERTAINTY?

Have official representatives been appointed by god(s)? Aren’t representatives typically self-appointed or appointed by each other?

How can mere mortals KNOW that god is not inanimate?

There are hundreds or thousands of different “sacred” or “holy” manuscripts – all touted as being “true”. There are hundreds of different English language versions of the Christian bible. How can anyone know which of the competing manuscripts and versions is “true”?

I've made some reply to this line of inquiry from other thread (especially to Zzyzx). The below-quoted is posted in Page 17, Post 169: Wed Nov 28, 2007 11:46 am in the thread "FAITH AND REASON"

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Looking for physical evidence for faith is like looking for physical evidence for love.

Physical evidence of “faith” abounds – including the palaces of whorship built as tribute to gods. Other evidence includes the blind acceptance indicated by posts to this forum is evidence of “faith” – belief without evidence. Religion in general is evidence of faith.

Truly this one is a classical example of a misconstrued concept of “faith.”

As I always maintain, subjectively, faith stands for the habit or virtue by which a person assent to the truths. Truth is not the palaces, as you want to call it. Not all who claim to have faith are assenting to the “truth” as revealed by God and therefore cannot be regarded as “faith” to the TRUE God.

How does one identify the “true god” from among the thousands available? Do they do so with blind faith in a book of tales by Bronze Age storytellers recorded by churchmen promoting their religon?

What besides a book causes "the faithful" to “believe” in an certain invisible “god”?

Is there any evidence that their favored gods are any more “true” than any others?

Since there are recognized over 2000 “gods”, the odds of choosing the correct one are 0.0005.

The “truth” was made known to the Church through Christ’s revelation or by the Holy Spirit. First, this “truth” was revealed to the apostles then handed down to the church – this “truth” is what is known as the Deposit of Faith. A body of “truth” accomplished in the apostolic times.

And in Page 19, Post 186: Mon Dec 03, 2007 5:07 am (FAITH AND REASON) I also reply to the same line of questioning...

Read >>>>

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The reason also I hold that it is as important as identifying the “truth” in identify the holder of truth because there rest the authority to being the guardian of “truth”. If this truth is truly divine in character – that is to say from divine revelation, it is certain that such “truth” is absolute and that there is no other truth other than what is revealed through Revelation. It is in this aspect that the intellect assents to this “truth” which is also known as divine truth.

Many religions claim to possess “divine truth”. What makes your claim superior to others? What indication can you present that the “truth” to which you refer is really truth? What verification can you offer?

Please identify those religions that claim to possess “divine truth.”

Meanwhile I shall answer the rest of your inquiry.

The “Divine Truth” was made known to man by Jesus through the apostles. This “truth” as I have mentioned formed the body of revealed truth called the “deposit of faith.” This “truth” is unique among other religion as this “truth” was witnessed by the Apostles and the early Christians. The “deposit of faith” is in this regard formed the “revealed truth” from God to man. In this case, the possession of “truth” can only be known base on its witnesses and the promise accompanied in such revelation is indeed “true” – that is when God promise to send salvation to man, it was accomplished in the New Testament. The apostles bear witness to the coming of the “Messiah”, the Son of the Living God.

I do not eliminate the reality of having thousands of gods known to man. The question really is, are those gods that man pay homage to, the “ONE TRUE GOD?” The “divine revelation” answers this question and that the Apostles bear witness to such - that there is only “ONE TRUE GOD.” You may find the Christian “God” competing with the other gods but when you have done enough examinations, one will know the difference that such other “gods” are inanimate. That is, they (“gods”) have not come in to contact or communicate with man. While Christianity has so much to offer for verification of this continuous communication between God and man, others are now stories of the past.

God continue to speak to his people through the “Church”. As God is not the god of the dead but of the living, so as the ties between God and man is animate. God continue to speak through the “Church Councils” and extends His special communication to the “saints” as can be seen in the 2000 years of her existence.

Note that no adequate responses was duly given to the above-mentioned posts...

And now we can read the very same line of inquiries... hope this time we can have a real deal on the subject.

[Greatest I Am]

I have posted what I think is the single most important issue to debate.

To me, the second most important issue is this. If there is a God, how do I determine what God requires of me? If your answer involves something that is from human agency, a book or an organization, then the question remains, "How do I know that the book's authors or the organization's leaders authoritatively speak for God?"

How do I determine what God requires of me?

Not to make it too simple but since you phrase it in the way a believer might then the answer is to believe that God gave you a perfect soul and nature. Follow it and do your best with what you have and God will be pleased.

God speak to all ages and the message should be simple enough for children to grasp.

Regards
DL

[McCulloch]

The “truth” was made known to the Church through Christ’s revelation or by the Holy Spirit. First, this “truth” was revealed to the apostles then handed down to the church – this “truth” is what is known as the Deposit of Faith. A body of “truth” accomplished in the apostolic times.

The “Divine Truth” was made known to man by Jesus through the apostles. This “truth” as I have mentioned formed the body of revealed truth called the “deposit of faith.” This “truth” is unique among other religion as this “truth” was witnessed by the Apostles and the early Christians. The “deposit of faith” is in this regard formed the “revealed truth” from God to man. In this case, the possession of “truth” can only be known base on its witnesses and the promise accompanied in such revelation is indeed “true” – that is when God promise to send salvation to man, it was accomplished in the New Testament. The apostles bear witness to the coming of the “Messiah”, the Son of the Living God.

I do not eliminate the reality of having thousands of gods known to man. The question really is, are those gods that man pay homage to, the “ONE TRUE GOD?” The “divine revelation” answers this question and that the Apostles bear witness to such - that there is only “ONE TRUE GOD.” You may find the Christian “God” competing with the other gods but when you have done enough examinations, one will know the difference that such other “gods” are inanimate. That is, they (“gods”) have not come in to contact or communicate with man. While Christianity has so much to offer for verification of this continuous communication between God and man, others are now stories of the past.

God continue to speak to his people through the “Church”. As God is not the god of the dead but of the living, so as the ties between God and man is animate. God continue to speak through the “Church Councils” and extends His special communication to the “saints” as can be seen in the 2000 years of her existence.

That is one claim. How do you know that God has communicated his will to the Church?

[McCulloch]

How do I determine what God requires of me?

Not to make it too simple but since you phrase it in the way a believer might then the answer is to believe that God gave you a perfect soul and nature. Follow it and do your best with what you have and God will be pleased.

Is it possible for me not to follow my own nature?

[olavisjo]

Not to make it too simple but since you phrase it in the way a believer might then the answer is to believe that God gave you a perfect soul and nature. Follow it and do your best with what you have and God will be pleased.

God speak to all ages and the message should be simple enough for children to grasp.

I would say that the message is so simple that only a child would grasp. Unless you come to God as a child, you will not find him.
In my view, man is incapable of responding to God, unless God initiates the relationship.
Asking an atheist to believe in the Bible or any other religion is like asking a blind man to see. If he can't, he can't, and no amount of belief will change that. But you can ask a blind man for his consent to allow a surgeon to restore his vision. In the same way, an atheist can ask God to give him the ability to believe. To me that is enough response for God to form a foundation of faith to build on.

[Dionysus]

Thought experiment:

You wake up in a dark, dank cell, alone. You have no clothing, no food, and you do not know how long you've been here. Along the opposite wall is a row of bars which seem to suggest the outline of another cell door, but they're situated in such a way that you cannot see into the next room no matter how well you might try to position yourself.

Suddenly, a note is slipped between the bars. You open it, and, in barely legible handwriting, you find a message scrawled on a ratty piece of paper -

"I AM THE WARDEN. I WAS LOCKED IN ON ACCIDENT, BUT NOBODY ELSE SEEMS TO BELIEVE ME. IF YOU SAY THAT I AM LOUD ENOUGH, SOMEONE MIGHT TAKE NOTICE AND OPEN MY DOOR, AND THEN I COULD OPEN YOURS."

You fold the paper into your hands, pondering. It is entirely possible that this fellow is the warden; perhaps he was wearing civilian clothes and managed to get himself locked in on inspection - but why would nobody else recognize him? Or, conversely, he might be a deranged prisoner who genuinely believes that your calling him the warden will make him such. Or perhaps it's simply a cruel game that the management of your newfound home is playing on you.

Do you, having just the letter in your position, accept his request and shout out that he is the warden? Do you question him as to why he does not do such himself?

[Zzyzx]

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There are thousands or millions who claim to be “representatives” of god or gods.

Are they all “true” or “official” representatives or are some of them misguided, mistaken, deluded, or deceitful?

Unless all are true, some means of distinguishing which, if any, ARE true is essential.

What is the means of distinguishing a true “representative of god(s)” from a false representative, with CERTAINTY?

Have official representatives been appointed by god(s)? Aren’t representatives typically self-appointed or appointed by each other?

How can mere mortals KNOW that god is not inanimate?

There are hundreds or thousands of different “sacred” or “holy” manuscripts – all touted as being “true”. There are hundreds of different English language versions of the Christian bible. How can anyone know which of the competing manuscripts and versions is “true”?

I've made some reply to this line of inquiry from other thread (especially to Zzyzx). The below-quoted is posted in Page 17, Post 169: Wed Nov 28, 2007 11:46 am in the thread "FAITH AND REASON"

Your “arguments” make no more sense now than they did last year.

.

Looking for physical evidence for faith is like looking for physical evidence for love.

Physical evidence of “faith” abounds – including the palaces of whorship built as tribute to gods. Other evidence includes the blind acceptance indicated by posts to this forum is evidence of “faith” – belief without evidence. Religion in general is evidence of faith.

Truly this one is a classical example of a misconstrued concept of “faith.”

As I always maintain, subjectively, faith stands for the habit or virtue by which a person assent to the truths. Truth is not the palaces, as you want to call it. Not all who claim to have faith are assenting to the “truth” as revealed by God and therefore cannot be regarded as “faith” to the TRUE God.

How does one identify the “true god” from among the thousands available? Do they do so with blind faith in a book of tales by Bronze Age storytellers recorded by churchmen promoting their religon?

What besides a book causes "the faithful" to “believe” in an certain invisible “god”?

Is there any evidence that their favored gods are any more “true” than any others?

Since there are recognized over 2000 “gods”, the odds of choosing the correct one are 0.0005.

The “truth” was made known to the Church through Christ’s revelation or by the Holy Spirit. First, this “truth” was revealed to the apostles then handed down to the church – this “truth” is what is known as the Deposit of Faith. A body of “truth” accomplished in the apostolic times.

Islam says that IT is the “truth”. How can anyone KNOW whether its claims are true and Christian claims are false or vice versa? Muslims can quote their “holy books” and Christians can quote their “holy books” – each claiming to be right.

How does one distinguish between competing religious claims, competing gods and competing “holy” books?

Is what you say anything more than personal opinion? If so, DOCUMENT what you say. Preaching to the choir may work in church; however, it does NOT work in an Internet debate forum.

And in Page 19, Post 186: Mon Dec 03, 2007 5:07 am (FAITH AND REASON) I also reply to the same line of questioning...

.

The reason also I hold that it is as important as identifying the “truth” in identify the holder of truth because there rest the authority to being the guardian of “truth”. If this truth is truly divine in character – that is to say from divine revelation, it is certain that such “truth” is absolute and that there is no other truth other than what is revealed through Revelation. It is in this aspect that the intellect assents to this “truth” which is also known as divine truth.

Many religions claim to possess “divine truth”. What makes your claim superior to others? What indication can you present that the “truth” to which you refer is really truth? What verification can you offer?

Please identify those religions that claim to possess “divine truth.”

“Islam claims to be a divine religion. In fact, Islam claims to be the only divine religion.” [1.5 Billion]
http://www.understanding-islam.com/rela ... on&qid=328


Baha’I Faith – “A movement comes from the East which claims to be the divine instrument for bringing unity into the world.” [7 million]
http://altreligion.about.com/library/te ... lbaha2.htm

The “Divine Truth” was made known to man by Jesus through the apostles. This “truth” as I have mentioned formed the body of revealed truth called the “deposit of faith.” This “truth” is unique among other religion as this “truth” was witnessed by the Apostles and the early Christians. The “deposit of faith” is in this regard formed the “revealed truth” from God to man. In this case, the possession of “truth” can only be known base on its witnesses and the promise accompanied in such revelation is indeed “true” – that is when God promise to send salvation to man, it was accomplished in the New Testament. The apostles bear witness to the coming of the “Messiah”, the Son of the Living God.

You are attempting to preach the gospel to someone who rejects the bible. You are not debating, you are simply preaching.

Many readers of these threads are NOT theists – and do not, therefore, regard the bible as being a source of truth. Convincing them of the validity of what you say will require something more substantial than quotes from Bronze Age storytellers.

If you live in the real world, evidence to support your claims should be available in a form that is acceptable to a rational person regardless of their preferences.

I do not eliminate the reality of having thousands of gods known to man. The question really is, are those gods that man pay homage to, the “ONE TRUE GOD?” The “divine revelation” answers this question and that the Apostles bear witness to such - that there is only “ONE TRUE GOD.” You may find the Christian “God” competing with the other gods but when you have done enough examinations, one will know the difference that such other “gods” are inanimate.

Kindly DOCUMENT this claim.

That is, they (“gods”) have not come in to contact or communicate with man. While Christianity has so much to offer for verification of this continuous communication between God and man, others are now stories of the past.

Kindly DOCUMENT this claim.

God continue to speak to his people through the “Church”. As God is not the god of the dead but of the living, so as the ties between God and man is animate. God continue to speak through the “Church Councils” and extends His special communication to the “saints” as can be seen in the 2000 years of her existence.

Kindly document that “god speaks to his people” through a church.

Identify the communication between god and church councils or “saints”.

Your claims constitute an OPINION, not a fact.

Note that no adequate responses was duly given to the above-mentioned posts...

The claims made above are NOT credible or supported by evidence. This is a DEBATE forum in which statements are expected to be verified (see forum rule #5).

Preaching is properly done in Holy Huddle sub-forum where documentation is not required and where Non-Theists do not post – or in “Christians only” websites.

And now we can read the very same line of inquiries... hope this time we can have a real deal on the subject.

Is there a topic that you feel qualified to debate (rather than preach or quote scripture)?

[Zzyzx]

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Not to make it too simple but since you phrase it in the way a believer might then the answer is to believe that God gave you a perfect soul and nature. Follow it and do your best with what you have and God will be pleased.

God speak to all ages and the message should be simple enough for children to grasp.

I would say that the message is so simple that only a child would grasp. Unless you come to God as a child, you will not find him.

I agree that religion is most effectively introduced during childhood, before discernment and judgment are developed.

Children are prone to mistake fantasy for reality. They often think that there are really “monsters under the bed” or in the closet. During that time in life, religious teachings (and/or indoctrination) is typically instilled and then reinforced during a lifetime.

The reinforcement is necessary and is the function of “prophets and priests” (and their livelihood) . If not reinforced, childhood beliefs tend to be outgrown. Few adults fear monsters under the bed (and those who do are of questionable mental stability). However, many adults carry with them the religious beliefs instilled during childhood because they are regularly reinforced.

In my view, man is incapable of responding to God, unless God initiates the relationship.

If this view is correct, god evidently doesn’t want a relationship with most of humanity.

Asking an atheist to believe in the Bible or any other religion is like asking a blind man to see. If he can't, he can't, and no amount of belief will change that. But you can ask a blind man for his consent to allow a surgeon to restore his vision. In the same way, an atheist can ask God to give him the ability to believe. To me that is enough response for God to form a foundation of faith to build on.

Many Non-Theists are FORMER Theists – who rejected religious teachings and indoctrination. Why would someone who concluded that religion was a fraud (or whatever they concluded in rejecting supernaturalism) “ask god” for help in believing?

Which god, of the thousands available, should one ask?

What is the advantage in “believing”?

[olavisjo]

Few adults fear monsters under the bed...

But they do fear and worry about death of a close family member, divorce, personal illness or injury, retirement, long working hours, excessive work pressure caused by time constraints and/or complexity, bullying and other forms of harassment, being laid off from a job, living on unemployment, social interaction with people who are rude, bossy, critical or aggressive, traffic jams, deadlines, commuting, misplaced keys, mechanical breakdowns, overeating, drinking, not enough sleep, overloaded schedule, negative thinking, unrealistic expectations, taking things personally, rigid thinking, burnout/exhaustion.
The monsters are no longer confined under the bed.

In my view, man is incapable of responding to God, unless God initiates the relationship.

If this view is correct, god evidently doesn’t want a relationship with most of humanity.

Most of humanity? I do believe that most of humanity suffers from a god delusion of one form or another, you are the minority.
But, God operates on a time table, first he sows, then waits patiently while things grow and then he harvests. You are being given an opportunity to share in God's work so that you can share in God's joy when the harvest is ready.

24Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:

25But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.

26But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.

27So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?

28He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?

29But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.

30Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Many Non-Theists are FORMER Theists – who rejected religious teachings and indoctrination. Why would someone who concluded that religion was a fraud (or whatever they concluded in rejecting supernaturalism) “ask god” for help in believing?

You did.
You have a very good mind, I would easily place you in the top 10% if not higher, and yet you have a human mind, and human minds a prone to a lot of faulty thinking and blind spots. If you should ever trust your mind so fully that you can go against Pascal's Wager, I would suggest it is time to check your pride.

Which god, of the thousands available, should one ask?

Phrase your question to all of them, then form your own faith around the one that answers.

What is the advantage in “believing”?

I could spend the rest of the day answering that one.
The first thing that comes to mind is that you have the assurance, that when bad things happen to you, that they are only temporary, and therefore can be endured far easier. For example a broken femur bone is far more painful than arthritis, but you know that in six weeks the broken bone will just be a memory, but the arthritis will be with you for the rest of your life, therefore it is a bigger bummer.
It is just a good feeling knowing that when the universe comes to an end, you will still be going strong.

[bernee51]

Few adults fear monsters under the bed...

But they do fear and worry about death of a close family member, divorce, personal illness or injury, retirement, long working hours, excessive work pressure caused by time constraints and/or complexity, bullying and other forms of harassment, being laid off from a job, living on unemployment, social interaction with people who are rude, bossy, critical or aggressive, traffic jams, deadlines, commuting, misplaced keys, mechanical breakdowns, overeating, drinking, not enough sleep, overloaded schedule, negative thinking, unrealistic expectations, taking things personally, rigid thinking, burnout/exhaustion.
The monsters are no longer confined under the bed.

There is only really one monster which is the cause of all these fears you describe - that is an attachment to a false view of the mind-body process and a delusion as to its true nature.

In my view, man is incapable of responding to God, unless God initiates the relationship.

If this view is correct, god evidently doesn’t want a relationship with most of humanity.

Most of humanity? I do believe that most of humanity suffers from a god delusion of one form or another, you are the minority.

So all gods are 'real' - not just yours. That is good to know. It is knowledge Vivekananda brought to 'the West' over 100 years ago. It is a great shame it has not been incorporated into all belief systems.

But, God operates on a time table, first he sows, then waits patiently while things grow and then he harvests. You are being given an opportunity to share in God's work so that you can share in God's joy when the harvest is ready.

The 'time table' as you call it is infinite.

Many Non-Theists are FORMER Theists – who rejected religious teachings and indoctrination. Why would someone who concluded that religion was a fraud (or whatever they concluded in rejecting supernaturalism) “ask god” for help in believing?

You did.
You have a very good mind, I would easily place you in the top 10% if not higher, and yet you have a human mind, and human minds a prone to a lot of faulty thinking and blind spots. If you should ever trust your mind so fully that you can go against Pascal's Wager, I would suggest it is time to check your pride.

Pride has nothing to do with Pascal's Wager which, BTW, has to be one of the worst, if not the worst, arguments for belief in your god.

Which god, of the thousands available, should one ask?

Phrase your question to all of them, then form your own faith around the one that answers.

The question, of course, is "Who am I?" The answer is the only reality.

What is the advantage in “believing”?

I could spend the rest of the day answering that one.
The first thing that comes to mind is that you have the assurance, that when bad things happen to you, that they are only temporary, and therefore can be endured far easier.

A god belief is not required to meet that realization.