Why do you believe in God?

[McCulloch]

The arguments for believing that there is a God can be categorized as follows:

1. Four Classical Arguments
2. The Argument from First Cause
   1. Everything must have a cause
   2. Causal Chains cannot go on forever
   3. Therefore there must be a first cause, and that is God.
3. The Argument from Design
   1. Something in the universe or the universe itself seems to be designed
   2. Therefore a designer must exist and that is God
4. The Argument from the Anthropic Principle
   1. The universal constants are fine tuned for the existence of humans.
   2. Therefore there must have been a God to fine tune the universe for our existence
5. The Ontological Argument
   1. God is a being than which nothing greater can be conceived.
   2. Assume that God does not exist.
   3. An existent God is a being greater than a non-existent one
   4. If God did not exist, then we could conceive of a being greater than God -- A God that exists.
   5. This is a contradiction, therefore (2) must be false and God exists
   Courtesy of Saint Anselm.

1. Four Subjective Arguments
2. The Argument from Coincidence
   1. There have been some remarkable coincidences.
   2. There must be a reason for those coincidences.
   3. That reason is God.
3. The Argument from Prophecy
   1. A holy book makes prophesies.
   2. A holy book or the adherents of it report that those prophesies have come true.
   3. Therefore whatever else is in the book, such as the claim that God exists must be true.
4. The Argument from Subjectivity and Faith
   1. People feel sure that God exists.
   2. Therefore God exists.
5. The Argument from Divine Interventions, Miracles and such
   1. A miracle occurs, perhaps as a response to prayer.
   2. God exists as evidenced by the divine intervention

1. Four Psycho-Mathematical Arguments
2. The Argument from Redefinition
   1. God is Love or Goodness or some other such thing.
   2. Love, goodness or whatever, clearly exists.
   3. Therefore God exists.
3. The Argument from Cognitive Tendency
   1. Some cognitive tendencies suggest the existence of an all-powerful agent.
   2. God must be that all-powerful agent
4. The Universality Argument and Morality
   1. Across cultures, the similarities in moral values are quite apparent.
   2. They must come from God
5. The Gambling Argument
   1. We can choose to believe or not in God.
   2. If we choose wrongly then negative consequences of choosing to disbelieve are greater than the negative consequences of choosing to believe.
   3. Therefore it is prudent to believe.

The classifications and much of the synopses are from John Allen Paulos, Professor of Mathematics at Temple University, in his book Irreligion, A Mathematician Explains Why the Arguments for God Just Don't Add Up As fallacious as these might seem, these seriously are the arguments put forth by philosophers, theologians, saints, apologists and preachers.

These are the arguments for God. There are numerous subtle variations on them, but essentially, as far as I can tell those who claim that God exists do so based on one or more of these arguments and nothing else.

Why should I believe that there is a God? What are your reasons? Are any of these reasons valid? If your reasons do not fall into any of the above groupings, please let us know why you believe. If you believe for a combination of these reasons, select the strongest one and explain why.

[olavisjo]

Is it a compliment to religion that it appeals to people who are frightened or who are emotionally distraught?

I would far prefer that my ideas appeal to people who are strong, unafraid and emotionally stable.

On hearing this, Jesus said to them, "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners."

Are you aware that biblical quotes are meaningless to Non-Theists? If you know that why would you use such things in attempting to communicate with Non-Theists? If you are not attempting to communicate, what is the purpose of posting?

The Bible does not make sense to you, but why does it make so much sense to so many others? Are you missing something or do they so desperately want to believe that, they have deluded themselves into thinking there is something there that is just not there.
So, I can understand your frustration with the Bible and I used to be just like you before I deluded myself into believing it.
So let me paraphrase the above scripture...Jesus was comparing the need for a doctor to our other needs, saying that healthy people do not need a doctor anymore than strong, unafraid and emotionally stable people need religion. And if you read between the lines, you will find (as I alluded) that strength will fail, fear will set in, and our emotional stability will fade. The human condition that you so admire is ephemeral at best.

So I would have to say that it is a compliment to God that he is there for those who need him,

Perhaps it is comforting for some when encountering times of difficulty or need to turn to an invisible friend (whether imaginary or real). Others do not have the same needs.

When I have been in difficult situations I turned to myself first and to friends if necessary – real friends that exist in the real world we inhabit.

I cannot make myself believe that an invisible super being will “help� me.

There are at least two possibilities, either God is not visible, or you are blind. To me God is visible in the things that he does for me and others, and he is visible in the natural world around me. God is more than a comfort to me, he is a real presence just like your real friends.

and sends away empty those who claim to have it all together.

What makes you think that those who don’t need “god� are “empty�? What is the justification for your statement?

Either I was not clear or you misunderstood my words. (unfortunately we have to communicate with the primitive method of using words) The original quote was...

So I would have to say that it is a compliment to God that he is there for those who need him, and sends away empty those who claim to have it all together.

Meaning that God fills the needs of those who need him and gives nothing to those who claim to be full, whether their claim to be full is valid or not, was not meant to be addressed.
It is up to you to determine if you have what it takes to complete your journey, trust me, it will be tested.

You may have a weak standard for strong, unafraid and emotionally stable, but to my standard of those terms I do not know anyone who fits them, we all fall short at times.

My standard of “strong, unafraid and emotionally stable� does not require perfection in those regards – but a general attitude. If one “falls short at times� they are not “disqualified�. A person who is strong 99% of the time but has an occasional weak moment is strong in my terms.

If some small “failure rate� makes a person less than strong in someone else’s value system (perhaps in effort to promote worship of a supposedly “supreme� being), that is not my problem and it does not reflect upon my decisions.

Emphasizing fear, weakness and emotionalism may further the interests of clerics and religionists; however, in my opinion it is detrimental to individuals. Religions may well depend upon such characteristics and may seek to emphasize them to increase dependency upon religion.

My weakness is my strength, because where I am weak God fills in for me.
A person may feel he is strong because he is able to to tackle the day to day molehills that come his way, but one day he will be faced with a mountain that he simply will not be able to traverse.

[McCulloch]

So, I can understand your frustration with the Bible and I used to be just like you before I deluded myself into believing it.

Are you sure about what you are admitting here or is this a sarcastic remark?

There are at least two possibilities, either God is not visible, or you are blind. To me God is visible in the things that he does for me and others, and he is visible in the natural world around me. God is more than a comfort to me, he is a real presence just like your real friends.

No he is not! God, according to your scriptures, is a spirit. Your real friends are humans (or other biological life forms perhaps). You can directly observe the actions and the communications from your real friends. The actions of God cannot be distinguished from random actions and the communications from God are either second-hand ones from various prophets or indistinguishable from your own imagination.

My weakness is my strength, because where I am weak God fills in for me.
A person may feel he is strong because he is able to to tackle the day to day molehills that come his way, but one day he will be faced with a mountain that he simply will not be able to traverse.

And in what way is this any different from the person who draws strength in his or her belief in Allah or some other superstition?

[FinalEnigma]

My weakness is my strength, because where I am weak God fills in for me.
A person may feel he is strong because he is able to to tackle the day to day molehills that come his way, but one day he will be faced with a mountain that he simply will not be able to traverse.

No. You discount too much. There are things that will give a man the strength to do more than you would think.

You are projecting your dependence on god(which has probably been hammered into your head for most of your life) to other people in the form of a weakness. You, and the rest of mankind, is stronger than you think.

I can say with 100% certainty(and I never have 100% certainty) that God is not needed to provide men with strength.

[Zzyzx]

.

I can say with 100% certainty(and I never have 100% certainty) that God is not needed to provide men with strength.

In my opinion gods are needed to promote WEAKNESS to cause dependence upon clerics -- those who benefit by promotion of god beliefs. There would be no need for the "priest class" without belief in "gods".

If gods did/do not exist, priests and prophets would need to invent them to justify their sale of services (and thus their income and job security).

Professional religionists (anyone who profits by promotion of religion) have a vested interest in building dependence (and thus weakness). Strong, self-confident people are not ideal converts because they are more difficult to intimidate or coerce with the promises and threats of religion.

[Zzyzx]

.

The Bible does not make sense to you, but why does it make so much sense to so many others?

Can you truly not comprehend that accepting the bible is OPTIONAL and that many people choose to NOT accept it as being applicable to their life?

I am not inclined to speculate about why the bible the koran or other “holy books� appeal to some and not to others. I am NOT moved to do what “everybody does� or to believe what “everybody believes�.

Because many others believe what is said in the Koran does that mean that you should or do believe what it says?

Are you missing something or do they so desperately want to believe that, they have deluded themselves into thinking there is something there that is just not there.

I do attempt to account for the actions of others (including their religious beliefs and their choice of mates).

So, I can understand your frustration with the Bible and I used to be just like you before I deluded myself into believing it.

Perhaps with time spent considering the merits of ideas presented in these threads you can un-delude yourself (or free your thinking of admittedly self-induced delusions) if you wish to do so.

So let me paraphrase the above scripture...Jesus was comparing the need for a doctor to our other needs, saying that healthy people do not need a doctor anymore than strong, unafraid and emotionally stable people need religion. And if you read between the lines, you will find (as I alluded) that strength will fail, fear will set in, and our emotional stability will fade. The human condition that you so admire is ephemeral at best.

Do you not comprehend that I have no interest in what is/was supposedly said by a character that I do not accept as being anything more than mythical, legendary or fictional?

Would you be likely to change your decisions in life based upon what someone tells you that any fictional character said in a novel?

So I would have to say that it is a compliment to God that he is there for those who need him,

Perhaps it is comforting for some when encountering times of difficulty or need to turn to an invisible friend (whether imaginary or real). Others do not have the same needs.

When I have been in difficult situations I turned to myself first and to friends if necessary – real friends that exist in the real world we inhabit.

I cannot make myself believe that an invisible super being will “help� me.

There are at least two possibilities, either God is not visible, or you are blind.

There are additional possibilities; 1) gods are imaginary rather than real, or 2) gods do not interfere with human lives, etc

However, my point is that I navigate life without recourse to “gods�. I do not require “help� from “gods� in order to handle the affairs and make the decisions of life. I take responsibility for making decisions and for carrying out what I decide.

I am aware that others, you included, do require assistance from “gods� and that you are convinced that you receive such assistance.

To me God is visible in the things that he does for me and others, and he is visible in the natural world around me.
God is more than a comfort to me, he is a real presence just like your real friends.

I have no opinion about your personal concept of gods and what they do. However, as you must realize, such statements mean nothing to me. If you are attempting to communicate something to me, you must speak in terms that are meaningful to me. Try using reasoning and evidence.

It is up to you to determine if you have what it takes to complete your journey,

I have made the determination that I am capable of living by my decisions and my actions and that I do not require “assistance� from invisible super beings. I have nearly seventy years of experience in making decisions and living by my decisions. Why should I change that because someone promotes belief in gods?

trust me, it will be tested.

I do not trust you. I do not believe what you say. You make statements that are irrational in my way of thinking. You are parroting what is claimed by Bronze Age storytellers. You can show me no evidence that what you say is true.

However, my decisions and actions are continually tested by life and reality. Those decisions that do not stand the test are reevaluated, corrected to the extent possible, and future decisions are made with respect toward the new information.

My weakness is my strength, because where I am weak God fills in for me.

Weakness is strength. Failure is success. War is peace. Slavery is freedom. Cowardice is bravery. Down is up. That sounds like something from George Orwell or George Bush.

A person may feel he is strong because he is able to to tackle the day to day molehills that come his way, but one day he will be faced with a mountain that he simply will not be able to traverse.

In my opinion feeling strong (being self-confident) is an asset if it is based upon a capability of doing what we intend in life. I disagree with those who promote weakness, helplessness and self-doubt.

The primary reasons for promoting such negative personal characteristics is, in my opinion, to cause people to become dependent upon others (including “gods� and their self-appointed representatives).

The only thing we can be certain that we face is death. There is NO assurance (or even any real indication) that death is anything other than the final and permanent end of life. Proposals of an “afterlife� or “reincarnation� may appeal to some; however, there is no evidence that such theories represent anything other than wishful thinking.

[wrekk]

The Bible does not make sense to you, but why does it make so much sense to so many others?

Amish
Anabaptism
Assemblies of God
Baptists
Calvinism
Christadelphians
Christian Identity
Church of Christ
Church of England
Church Universal and Triumphant
Congregationalism
Coptic Christianity
Eastern Orthodox
Episcopal Church
Ethiopian Christianity
IURD
Jehovah's Witnesses
Lutheran Church
Maronites
Mennonites
Methodism
Old Catholic Movement
Pentecostal Church
People's Temple
Pilgrims
Presbyterian Church
Protestant
Puritanism
Quakers
Roman Catholicism
Shakers
Spiritual Baptists
Thomas Christians
Unification Church
Unitarian Universalist
Unitarianism
United Church of Christ

Are you referring to these people? They have made "sense" of it too? Are you sure about that?

BTW - This was a REAL modest list. I'm sure everyone here would agree.

[bernee51]

The Bible does not make sense to you, but why does it make so much sense to so many others? Are you missing something or do they so desperately want to believe that, they have deluded themselves into thinking there is something there that is just not there.

Yes - they are deluding themselves. They see something that brings meaning and purpose to their lives and hold onto it for that reason. Just as others use the Koran or the Bhagavad Gita.

So, I can understand your frustration with the Bible and I used to be just like you before I deluded myself into believing it.

Realising it is a delusion is the first step. Even though delusory it can still bring meaning and purpose

The value in understanding its nature as delusion leads to understanding and acceptance of other's delusions.

There are at least two possibilities, either God is not visible, or you are blind.

And this is a false dilemma.

To me God is visible in the things that he does for me and others, and he is visible in the natural world around me. God is more than a comfort to me, he is a real presence just like your real friends.

I am happy that you find such comfort in your belief...that is its purpose.

[olavisjo]

So, I can understand your frustration with the Bible and I used to be just like you before I deluded myself into believing it.

Are you sure about what you are admitting here or is this a sarcastic remark?

If I was deluded, by definition, I would be unaware of that fact. However, I am aware that I am arrogant and obnoxious.

There are at least two possibilities, either God is not visible, or you are blind. To me God is visible in the things that he does for me and others, and he is visible in the natural world around me. God is more than a comfort to me, he is a real presence just like your real friends.

No he is not! God, according to your scriptures, is a spirit. Your real friends are humans (or other biological life forms perhaps). You can directly observe the actions and the communications from your real friends. The actions of God cannot be distinguished from random actions and the communications from God are either second-hand ones from various prophets or indistinguishable from your own imagination.

You are right, he is not quite like my real friends, he is more dependable. When random actions happen far more than probability would allow, they are no longer random.

My weakness is my strength, because where I am weak God fills in for me.
A person may feel he is strong because he is able to to tackle the day to day molehills that come his way, but one day he will be faced with a mountain that he simply will not be able to traverse.

And in what way is this any different from the person who draws strength in his or her belief in Allah or some other superstition?

No different, but we are only as strong as our imaginary God is.

[olavisjo]

My weakness is my strength, because where I am weak God fills in for me.
A person may feel he is strong because he is able to to tackle the day to day molehills that come his way, but one day he will be faced with a mountain that he simply will not be able to traverse.

No. You discount too much. There are things that will give a man the strength to do more than you would think.

You are projecting your dependence on god(which has probably been hammered into your head for most of your life) to other people in the form of a weakness. You, and the rest of mankind, is stronger than you think.

I can say with 100% certainty(and I never have 100% certainty) that God is not needed to provide men with strength.

I felt the same when I was 21, let's talk again in 30 years.

[olavisjo]

Science is FAR more than observation. That is only the first step in understanding the events, processes and products of nature. Have you studied science beyond introductory level?

What comes after the introductory level? Do they hold a séance? My impression was that they build bigger and better instruments to observe things to see if their theoretical models work out, but it is all based on observation of the natural world.

Introductory level science introduces vocabulary and some general concepts. Additional study expands upon the general concepts and introduces specialized studies. Advanced study includes research and contribution to understanding of the field (if possible).

Observation is, as I clearly stated, only the first step in understanding events, processes and products of nature. I do not expect those who have not studied science to understand its significance or its methods (even though many think they understand well enough to be critical). I ask again if you have studied science beyond introductory level. Can you answer the question honestly?

It would have been interesting if you would have revealed some of these methods. But let me try and guess. Beyond observation a scientist may spend a good amount of time visualizing and building models of the physical world as well as putting together mathematical models to describe what was observed.
I am sure you would consider me to be silly if I rejected the spdf model of the atom by simply stating there is no evidence that such electron configurations actually exist. And it does not matter if those orbitals actually exist or not, the model is useful in explaining why atoms behave the way they do and it is also useful in predicting how they will behave in situations that have never been observed.
Similarly it is silly for you to reject a model of reality that includes God simply for the lack of evidence when we do not expect to see the said evidence in the first place. Especially given how useful such a model is in explaining the world that we see around us.
In fact it is a very immature position to make the assumption that if a God did exist he should fit into the box that our limited mind feels that he should fit in.

Because many others believe what is said in the Koran does that mean that you should or do believe what it says?

Not necessarily believe but understand. I just don't have the time to follow all the detailed study going on in the many fields of science, so I depend on others to keep me posted on the major discoveries and what their implications are. Similarly we should also get an understanding of what all these ancient scriptures are about and what they claim. Lets leave no stone unturned.