One of the key beliefs of Christianity that sets it apart from all other religions is that Jesus rose from the dead. No other religious founder has risen from the dead.
The Bible is clear that Jesus rose from the dead. But, are there any other evidence that Jesus was resurrected from the dead?
Are there any evidence that Jesus rose from the dead?
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Cephus
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Post #61
We have no clue what Jesus claimed because Jesus never wrote any of his claims down. It's likely that, if Jesus existed at all, that he was illiterate. The only record we have of Jesus was written long after his death by people who likely never even met him in person.Bro Dave wrote:For what its worth, Jesus was not, and never claimed to be the Jewish Messaih. In fact, this was a continual problem for him with his apostles. The Messaih was to be an earthly king, who would bring the Jews into a position of world dominance. Clearly that was never Jesus claim or any part of his teaching. He simply taught that we are all children of the same Father, God, and that the Kingdom of heaven was within. His followers added many layers to this, and eventually voted a compilation of these additions into what we call the Bible(s).
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Cathar1950
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Post #62
Cephus wrote:
It seems the vision that Peter had in Galilee was shared by many followers and the stories after were largely fiction and myth. Paul has visions all the time and never meet Jesus and does not mention an ascension because it was not needed and was a later literary invention.
I would agree with every thing you said except Jesus being illiterate Cephus. The Dead Sea Scrolls show that there were many sectarians that were literate. Judas the Galilean was very educated and a rebel.We have no clue what Jesus claimed because Jesus never wrote any of his claims down. It's likely that, if Jesus existed at all, that he was illiterate. The only record we have of Jesus was written long after his death by people who likely never even met him in person.
It seems the vision that Peter had in Galilee was shared by many followers and the stories after were largely fiction and myth. Paul has visions all the time and never meet Jesus and does not mention an ascension because it was not needed and was a later literary invention.
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Cephus
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Post #63
Yes, but the majority of common people were illiterate and that's exactly what Jesus was portrayed as being. He was a simple man of simple stock, son of a carpenter. There simply is no reason to think that Jesus would have had the training or education that would have been above his station.Cathar1950 wrote:Cephus wrote:I would agree with every thing you said except Jesus being illiterate Cephus. The Dead Sea Scrolls show that there were many sectarians that were literate. Judas the Galilean was very educated and a rebel.We have no clue what Jesus claimed because Jesus never wrote any of his claims down. It's likely that, if Jesus existed at all, that he was illiterate. The only record we have of Jesus was written long after his death by people who likely never even met him in person.
It seems the vision that Peter had in Galilee was shared by many followers and the stories after were largely fiction and myth. Paul has visions all the time and never meet Jesus and does not mention an ascension because it was not needed and was a later literary invention.
I do agree with you though, the vast majority of the NT is simple bunk, invented for various reasons and not historical in the least.
Jesus' education
Post #64From the Urantia Book;
123:2.5 There were few homes in the gentile world of those days that could give a child a better intellectual, moral, and religious training than the Jewish homes of Galilee. These Jews had a systematic program for rearing and educating their children. They divided a child's life into seven stages:
1. The newborn child, the first to the eighth day.
2. The suckling child.
3. The weaned child.
4. The period of dependence on the mother, lasting up to the end of the fifth year.
5. The beginning independence of the child and, with sons, the father assuming responsibility for their education.
6. The adolescent youths and maidens.
7. The young men and the young women.
123:2.6 It was the custom of the Galilean Jews for the mother to bear the responsibility for a child's training until the fifth birthday, and then, if the child were a boy, to hold the father responsible for the lad's education from that time on. This year, therefore, Jesus entered upon the fifth stage of a Galilean Jewish child's career, and accordingly on August 21, 2 B.C., Mary formally turned him over to Joseph for further instruction.
123:2.7 Though Joseph was now assuming the direct responsibility for Jesus' intellectual and religious education, his mother still interested herself in his home training. She taught him to know and care for the vines and flowers growing about the garden walls which completely surrounded the home plot. She also provided on the roof of the house (the summer bedroom) shallow boxes of sand in which Jesus worked out maps and did much of his early practice at writing Aramaic, Greek, and later on, Hebrew, for in time he learned to read, write, and speak, fluently, all three languages.
SCHOOL DAYS IN NAZARETH
123:5.1 Jesus was now seven years old, the age when Jewish children were supposed to begin their formal education in the synagogue schools. Accordingly, in August of this year he entered upon his eventful school life at Nazareth. Already this lad was a fluent reader, writer, and speaker of two languages, Aramaic and Greek. He was now to acquaint himself with the task of learning to read, write, and speak the Hebrew language. And he was truly eager for the new school life which was ahead of him.
123:5.2 For three years -- until he was ten -- he attended the elementary school of the Nazareth synagogue. For these three years he studied the rudiments of the Book of the Law as it was recorded in the Hebrew tongue. For the following three years he studied in the advanced school and committed to memory, by the method of repeating aloud, the deeper teachings of the sacred law. He graduated from this school of the synagogue during his thirteenth year and was turned over to his parents by the synagogue rulers as an educated "son of the commandment" -- henceforth a responsible citizen of the commonwealth of Israel, all of which entailed his attendance at the Passovers in Jerusalem; accordingly, he attended his first Passover that year in company with his father and mother.
123:5.6 Next, in addition to his more formal schooling, Jesus began to make contact with human nature from the four quarters of the earth as men from many lands passed in and out of his father's repair shop. When he grew older, he mingled freely with the caravans as they tarried near the spring for rest and nourishment. Being a fluent speaker of Greek, he had little trouble in conversing with the majority of the caravan travelers and conductors.
123:5.7 Nazareth was a caravan way station and crossroads of travel and largely gentile in population; at the same time it was widely known as a center of liberal interpretation of Jewish traditional law. In Galilee the Jews mingled more freely with the gentiles than was their practice in Judea. And of all the cities of Galilee, the Jews of Nazareth were most liberal in their interpretation of the social restrictions based on the fears of contamination as a result of contact with the gentiles. And these conditions gave rise to the common saying in Jerusalem, "Can any good thing come out of Nazareth?"
123:5.9 Throughout his years at the synagogue he was a brilliant student, possessing a great advantage since he was conversant with three languages. The Nazareth chazan, on the occasion of Jesus' finishing the course in his school, remarked to Joseph that he feared he "had learned more from Jesus' searching questions" than he had "been able to teach the lad."
123:5.10 Throughout his course of study Jesus learned much and derived great inspiration from the regular Sabbath sermons in the synagogue. It was customary to ask distinguished visitors, stopping over the Sabbath in Nazareth, to address the synagogue. As Jesus grew up, he heard many great thinkers of the entire Jewish world expound their views, and many also who were hardly orthodox Jews since the synagogue of Nazareth was an advanced and liberal center of Hebrew thought and culture.
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I thought you might like to know...
Bro Dave
123:2.5 There were few homes in the gentile world of those days that could give a child a better intellectual, moral, and religious training than the Jewish homes of Galilee. These Jews had a systematic program for rearing and educating their children. They divided a child's life into seven stages:
1. The newborn child, the first to the eighth day.
2. The suckling child.
3. The weaned child.
4. The period of dependence on the mother, lasting up to the end of the fifth year.
5. The beginning independence of the child and, with sons, the father assuming responsibility for their education.
6. The adolescent youths and maidens.
7. The young men and the young women.
123:2.6 It was the custom of the Galilean Jews for the mother to bear the responsibility for a child's training until the fifth birthday, and then, if the child were a boy, to hold the father responsible for the lad's education from that time on. This year, therefore, Jesus entered upon the fifth stage of a Galilean Jewish child's career, and accordingly on August 21, 2 B.C., Mary formally turned him over to Joseph for further instruction.
123:2.7 Though Joseph was now assuming the direct responsibility for Jesus' intellectual and religious education, his mother still interested herself in his home training. She taught him to know and care for the vines and flowers growing about the garden walls which completely surrounded the home plot. She also provided on the roof of the house (the summer bedroom) shallow boxes of sand in which Jesus worked out maps and did much of his early practice at writing Aramaic, Greek, and later on, Hebrew, for in time he learned to read, write, and speak, fluently, all three languages.
SCHOOL DAYS IN NAZARETH
123:5.1 Jesus was now seven years old, the age when Jewish children were supposed to begin their formal education in the synagogue schools. Accordingly, in August of this year he entered upon his eventful school life at Nazareth. Already this lad was a fluent reader, writer, and speaker of two languages, Aramaic and Greek. He was now to acquaint himself with the task of learning to read, write, and speak the Hebrew language. And he was truly eager for the new school life which was ahead of him.
123:5.2 For three years -- until he was ten -- he attended the elementary school of the Nazareth synagogue. For these three years he studied the rudiments of the Book of the Law as it was recorded in the Hebrew tongue. For the following three years he studied in the advanced school and committed to memory, by the method of repeating aloud, the deeper teachings of the sacred law. He graduated from this school of the synagogue during his thirteenth year and was turned over to his parents by the synagogue rulers as an educated "son of the commandment" -- henceforth a responsible citizen of the commonwealth of Israel, all of which entailed his attendance at the Passovers in Jerusalem; accordingly, he attended his first Passover that year in company with his father and mother.
123:5.6 Next, in addition to his more formal schooling, Jesus began to make contact with human nature from the four quarters of the earth as men from many lands passed in and out of his father's repair shop. When he grew older, he mingled freely with the caravans as they tarried near the spring for rest and nourishment. Being a fluent speaker of Greek, he had little trouble in conversing with the majority of the caravan travelers and conductors.
123:5.7 Nazareth was a caravan way station and crossroads of travel and largely gentile in population; at the same time it was widely known as a center of liberal interpretation of Jewish traditional law. In Galilee the Jews mingled more freely with the gentiles than was their practice in Judea. And of all the cities of Galilee, the Jews of Nazareth were most liberal in their interpretation of the social restrictions based on the fears of contamination as a result of contact with the gentiles. And these conditions gave rise to the common saying in Jerusalem, "Can any good thing come out of Nazareth?"
123:5.9 Throughout his years at the synagogue he was a brilliant student, possessing a great advantage since he was conversant with three languages. The Nazareth chazan, on the occasion of Jesus' finishing the course in his school, remarked to Joseph that he feared he "had learned more from Jesus' searching questions" than he had "been able to teach the lad."
123:5.10 Throughout his course of study Jesus learned much and derived great inspiration from the regular Sabbath sermons in the synagogue. It was customary to ask distinguished visitors, stopping over the Sabbath in Nazareth, to address the synagogue. As Jesus grew up, he heard many great thinkers of the entire Jewish world expound their views, and many also who were hardly orthodox Jews since the synagogue of Nazareth was an advanced and liberal center of Hebrew thought and culture.
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I thought you might like to know...
Bro Dave
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androgyneco
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raised from the dead? existed? or was a completely different
Post #65It seems so many of those who post on here are debating the smallest details of theological and semantic niceties within a huge set of assumptions about the accuracy of the canonical bible historically, while completely failing to see the big picture. Belief in extraordinary miraculous occurances for most sane people requires proof (or at least overwhelming compelling evidence) that the laws of nature that we all observe everyday are subverted by certain individuals, or a deity. The deists summarized this best when they argued that Natural law was created by a Creator and that everybody and everything afterward simply follows its rules. This rules out "miracles" that avoid simple observable laws of physics, and three day old "corpses" reviving and walking around with holes in them..A very logical and humane acquaintance of mine summarized his transition from religious childhood to thinking adulthood as follows-- this in its broadest outlines is something to think about, while laying your assumptions about the infallibility of certain writings over others--any writings-- aside.
He concluded:
I decided (found to be true) in this order:
1) the Bible is neither infallable nor inerrant
2) Jesus only claims to be God (and that by loose interpretation) in John, the least historically accurate of the four gospels, written over a hundred years after Jesus' death.
3) Jesus loves me as long as I believe and live as the Church wants me to, and as long as I pay my tithes every month.
4) God (or YHWH/Jehovah/Yahweh, the Judeo-Christian deity) is a patriarchal war god who hates women, hates gays, promulgates the slaughter of innocent women and children, and rules by fear of eternal torture. (if you believe the Bible)
Even if you're a " liberal" or "moderate mainline" Christian, who vehemently opposes the sentiments in number 4) above, you have to accept the fact that historically virtually all Christians acted this way for millenia until the Enlightenment and modern ideas, finally started seeing the moral evil in them. Lots of "God's children" suffered,died, and were buried in those intervening centuries....
He concluded:
I decided (found to be true) in this order:
1) the Bible is neither infallable nor inerrant
2) Jesus only claims to be God (and that by loose interpretation) in John, the least historically accurate of the four gospels, written over a hundred years after Jesus' death.
3) Jesus loves me as long as I believe and live as the Church wants me to, and as long as I pay my tithes every month.
4) God (or YHWH/Jehovah/Yahweh, the Judeo-Christian deity) is a patriarchal war god who hates women, hates gays, promulgates the slaughter of innocent women and children, and rules by fear of eternal torture. (if you believe the Bible)
Even if you're a " liberal" or "moderate mainline" Christian, who vehemently opposes the sentiments in number 4) above, you have to accept the fact that historically virtually all Christians acted this way for millenia until the Enlightenment and modern ideas, finally started seeing the moral evil in them. Lots of "God's children" suffered,died, and were buried in those intervening centuries....
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androgyneco
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Arose? existed? Was a completely different person?
Post #66It seems so many of those who post on here are debating the smallest details of theological and semantic niceties within a huge set of assumptions about the accuracy of the canonical bible historically, while completely failing to see the big picture. Belief in extraordinary miraculous occurances for most sane people requires proof (or at least overwhelming compelling evidence) that the laws of nature that we all observe everyday are subverted by certain individuals, or a deity. The deists summarized this best when they argued that Natural law was created by a Creator and that everybody and everything afterward simply follows its rules. This rules out "miracles" that avoid simple observable laws of physics, and three day old "corpses" reviving and walking around with holes in them..A very logical and humane acquaintance of mine summarized his transition from religious childhood to thinking adulthood as follows-- this in its broadest outlines is something to think about, while laying your assumptions about the infallibility of certain writings over others--any writings-- aside.
He concluded:
I decided (found to be true) in this order:
1) the Bible is neither infallable nor inerrant
2) Jesus only claims to be God (and that by loose interpretation) in John, the least historically accurate of the four gospels, written over a hundred years after Jesus' death.
3) Jesus loves me as long as I believe and live as the Church wants me to, and as long as I pay my tithes every month.
4) God (or YHWH/Jehovah/Yahweh, the Judeo-Christian deity) is a patriarchal war god who hates women, hates gays, promulgates the slaughter of innocent women and children, and rules by fear of eternal torture. (if you believe the Bible)
Even if you're a " liberal" or "moderate mainline" Christian, who vehemently opposes the sentiments in number 4) above, you have to accept the fact that historically virtually all Christians acted this way for millenia until the Enlightenment and modern ideas, finally started seeing the moral evil in them. Lots of "God's children" suffered,died, and were buried in those intervening centuries....
He concluded:
I decided (found to be true) in this order:
1) the Bible is neither infallable nor inerrant
2) Jesus only claims to be God (and that by loose interpretation) in John, the least historically accurate of the four gospels, written over a hundred years after Jesus' death.
3) Jesus loves me as long as I believe and live as the Church wants me to, and as long as I pay my tithes every month.
4) God (or YHWH/Jehovah/Yahweh, the Judeo-Christian deity) is a patriarchal war god who hates women, hates gays, promulgates the slaughter of innocent women and children, and rules by fear of eternal torture. (if you believe the Bible)
Even if you're a " liberal" or "moderate mainline" Christian, who vehemently opposes the sentiments in number 4) above, you have to accept the fact that historically virtually all Christians acted this way for millenia until the Enlightenment and modern ideas, finally started seeing the moral evil in them. Lots of "God's children" suffered,died, and were buried in those intervening centuries....
