Is the Resurrurredction really a historical fact, or not?

[polonius]

In Paul’s oldest and first epistle, written in 51-52 AD, he states without qualification that:

“Indeed, we tell you this, on the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord,* will surely not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord himself, with a word of command, with the voice of an archangel and with the trumpet of God, will come down from heaven, and the dead in Christ will rise first.g17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together* with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. Thus we shall always be with the Lord.� 1 Thes 4:15-17

But it didn’t happen. Thus we must conclude that either Paul or the Lord were incorrect.

How much else of what Paul told us is also incorrect?

Recall, it was Paul who reported the Resurrection in 1 Corinthians 15 written about 53-57 AD.

Was his story historically correct (did it actually happen) or is it just a story that was used by and embellished by the writers of the New Testament?

Since the basis of Christian belief is the historical fact of the Resurrection, let’s examine the evidence and see if the Resurrection really happened or can an analysis of the story show that it is improbable if not impossible.

Opinions?

[Claire Evans]

[Replying to post 634 by Claire Evans]

First, just some helpful constructive criticism. Can you please tidy up your response formats? You've got parts in double arrows <<>> and then you have a quote from polonius using the actual QUOTE function of this site, and I'm having trouble figuring out...are both the double arrow parts and the QUOTE box from polonius? Who is saying what?
Basically, I'm having trouble following the conversation.

An example of a made up story was the story of the possessed pigs. It was an allegory for the Jewish Wars and actually did not happen.

I'd like to know your reasoning for why you think the pig story was made up, is a metaphor. It seems strange coming from a Jesus believer to say that. Why couldn't it be true, as written? Usually a Jesus believer says that Jesus had all sorts of abilities, and routinely cast out demons and did all sorts of other great miraculous acts.

Sorry, forgot others were following the discourse.


If we want to follow Matthew and place the exorcism at Gadara, let us see what happened to the Gadarenes in the Jewish War of Josephus:

“Vespasian sent Placidus with 500 horse and 3000 foot to pursue those who had fled from Gadara,... (5) Placidus, relying on his cavalry and emboldened by his previous success, pursued the Gadarenes, killing all whom he overtook, as far as the Jordan. Having driven the whole multitude up to the river, where they were blocked by the stream, which being swollen by the rain was unfordable, he drew up his troops in line opposite them. Necessity goaded them to battle, flight being impossible... Fifteen thousand perished by the enemy’s hands, while the number of those who were driven to fling themselves into the Jordan was incalculable; about two thousand two hundred were captured. A mighty prey was taken also, consisting of asses, and sheep, and camels, and oxen (6) This blow was the greatest that had befallen the Jews, and appeared even greater than is was; for not only was the whole countryside through which their flight had lain one scene of carnage, and the Jordan choked with dead, but even the [Dead Sea] was filled with bodies, masses of which were carried down into it by the river.� War 4. 7. 4-6

Again the Jews are driven into the water by the Romans and thousands are drowned. We should ask, did the people of the East herd swine? There is no record of this being a contemporary practice in the area. Perhaps in Europe, but not Syria or Judea. Note when Placidus captured the livestock of the Gadarenes it consisted of asses, sheep, camels, and oxen. No swine! Some might say, “of course not, Jesus drove them to destruction.� This begs the question of the near forty years between the destruction of the Gadarene swine by Jesus, and the Roman destruction of the Gadarenes in 67. There was plenty of time for the Gadarenes to raise another ‘herd of swine’.

Read more here:

http://carrington-arts.com/cliff/Swine.htm

"The first act of his ministry among the Jews was casting out a demon; the first act of his ministry among the Gentiles would be to cast out a horde of demons. Jesus is faced with an unknown number, but probably several thousand (a “Legion� was major unit of the Roman army consisting of four to six thousand men) in one or two men (in Mark we have just one man but in Matthew there are two men).
Because the spirits were “unclean,� it probably would have been regarded as poetic justice for them to be sent off into “unclean� animals. Traditionally Christians have read this passage as representing the beginning of the purification of Gentile lands because both unclean animals and unclean spirits were banished to the sea which Jesus had already demonstrated his power and authority over.

It’s arguable, though, that this story may have been more properly read as a parable about the unwanted presence of the Roman Legions. They, of course, would not have wanted to be sent out of the country but many Jews would have wanted to see them driven into the sea."

Considering that swine herding was not a known practice there, I believe that this Jesus exorcism story was a metaphor or parable for the war on the Gadarenes. Gadarenes were also gentiles and were considered swine.

[Tired of the Nonsense]

[Replying to Claire Evans]

I think you and I have to agree that we are going around and around in circles. We are going to have to agree to disagree. I will concede your last point.

We are going around in circles because you keep insisting on making declarations that simply are unfounded. You have declared that the guards at the tomb were Roman. And yet we can all see that the words "Roman guards" are to be found nowhere in the text. You keep declaring that the Roman guards would have opened and inspected the tomb, even though it was a high holy day, and even in the presence of the high priests, whom Gospel Matthew has clearly placed AT THE TOMB. But there is absolutely no mention of anyone opening the tomb. And finally, you insist that the word "custodian" is an unmistakable reference to Roman guards. But you see, the Greek word "custodian" simply means someone who is given custody of something. That's what it meant 2,000 years ago, and that's what it means today. But, as you may notice, THERE ARE NO MORE ROMAN GUARDS TODAY! And yet the word "custodian" still means someone who has been given custody of something. It can refer to one person, or many. And it's still a perfectly viable word today precisely because it is not a specific reference to anything, including Roman custodians which no longer exist.

Matthew 27 uses the word in a slightly different form twice, κουστωδίας (Matt.27:65) and κουστωδίαν (Matt,27:66). Now, using cut and paste try the Greek to English translation for yourself, and notice that these words DO NOT translate into, or in any way infer, anything Roman.
https://www.google.com/webhp?source=sea ... to+english

Pilate in fact uses the words Ἔχετε κουστωδίαν which means you custodian. Using the Greek to English translator, translate Ἔχετε κουστωδίαν for yourself, and notice that, again, it is not a reference to anything Roman.

Just as you cannot simply declare that Gospel Matthew says what it clearly DOES NOT SAY, you cannot simply declare that the Greek language means what it does not mean.

[tfvespasianus]

Considering that swine herding was not a known practice there, I believe that this Jesus exorcism story was a metaphor or parable for the war on the Gadarenes. Gadarenes were also gentiles and were considered swine.

I think the problems with a definitive answer to this question are at least two-fold. First is that variants in the texts exist (Gadarenes, Gerasenes, Gergesenes). Additionally, it is not specific, but rather refers to the general area (e.g. ‘ch�ran t�n’ translated variously as ‘land’ or ‘region’ of). Best guesses place that in the area of the Decalopolis which was a heavily gentile region. Moreover, pig raising wasn’t entirely absent from the region conceding that the evidence is fragmentary, but not absent. This article from the Journal of Ethnobiology probably provides more information than you ever wanted to know about ancient Palestinian pork production:

https://ethnobiology.org/sites/default/ ... /Hesse.pdf

[Tired of the Nonsense]

Replying to Claire Evans

I would also like to point out that the guard at the tomb controversy is hardly the only instance where Christians assumptions and Christian assertions do not hold up to a detailed evaluation of them. For example, most Christians conceive of the resurrection of Jesus as a well known event at the time, widely known to have been true, and that the risen Jesus was seen by hundreds. Far too many for it to have been a hallucination or a hoax. Nor did anyone even bother to deny it at the time. This last claim is at least is true, although completely misleading. No one denied the at the time. In fact no one even mentioned any of it at the time. The very first historical mention of the resurrection occurs in Paul's first letter to the Corinthians, written circa 55 AD, or about a quarter of a century after the time frame established by the Gospels for the execution of Jesus. The Resurrection of Jesus from the dead, the most glorious and significant moment in human history according to Christians, went entirely unrecorded at all at the time it was supposed to have occurred.

1 Corinthians in fact is the source of the claim that the risen Jesus was seen by hundreds. Paul mentions that "above 500" of Jesus' followers saw and communed with the risen Jesus on one particular occasion. This is widely accepted as evidence that the risen Jesus was seen by hundreds, entirely overlooking the fact that this is one report, and not hundreds of reports. Paul himself would not become a Christian believer for some years yet after Jesus was executed, and was not himself a witness to ANY of the events portrayed in the Gospels, including the claims of post crucifixion appearances by Jesus. In fact Acts 1:15 places the total number of Jesus' disciples after the supposed "ascension" of Jesus, but just prior to the day of Pentecost, at "about an hundred and twenty." It was from this group that the entire rumor of the risen Jesus was derived. Just as the chief priests had predicted.

This is not the preferred view of the majority of Christians though, is it? It just happens to be a completely accurate view, taken directly from Christian documents themselves. There is a general agreement among Christian and secular scholars that the Gospel According to Luke, and Acts of the Apostles were written by the same person. Almost every other aspect of Christian claims and Christian beliefs fall completely apart during a detailed examination of them however.

[polonius]

[Replying to JLB32168]

JLB32168 wrote:

""Why bother debating Resurrection and if it might be historical fact?""

"A reason to debate the topic is that some claim to know that the claimed resurrection was a historical fact."

RESPONSE: In establishing an historical fact of an event that occurred earlier than one’s lifetime one uses Aristotle and Aquinas’s old dictum of “Seeking such certitude (or truth) as the nature of the thing allows.�

I was not present during Julius Caesar’s lifetime but based on all the evidence can establish as historical fact that he existed.

Since the evidence for a Resurrection is minimal and contradictory, I cannot establish if the resurrection was a fact or only a legend.

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to JLB32168]

JLB32168 wrote:

""Why bother debating Resurrection and if it might be historical fact?""

"A reason to debate the topic is that some claim to know that the claimed resurrection was a historical fact."

RESPONSE: In establishing an historical fact of an event that occurred earlier than one’s lifetime one uses Aristotle and Aquinas’s old dictum of “Seeking such certitude (or truth) as the nature of the thing allows.�

I was not present during Julius Caesar’s lifetime but based on all the evidence can establish as historical fact that he existed.

Since the evidence for a Resurrection is minimal and contradictory, I cannot establish if the resurrection was a fact or only a legend.

Not to mention the claim for a resurrection flies against all currently held knowledge as to what happens to dead bodies, or more precisely what doesn't happen. It doesn't violate the known laws of physics to suggest Julius Caesar crossed the Rubicon or got stabbed in the theatre...but it does to suggest that a single corpse got up after a three day dirt nap and flew away.

[Tired of the Nonsense]

Reply to JLB32168

Why bother debating Resurrection and if it might be historical fact?

Santa Claus and his team of flying reindeer might be historical fact as well. But it's certainly debatable.

[Ancient of Years]

Luke must be referring to the Temple destruction in 70 AD because it was not destroyed during the siege of Jerusalem. Luke concentrated more on the fall of the Temple rather than the end of the age.

Of course the Temple was destroyed during the siege of Jerusalem in 70 CE. Josephus gives a very detailed account of the whole affair. See The War of the Jews Book 5, Book 6 and Book 7.

If you are thinking of the Bar Kokhba Revolt, there was no siege of Jerusalem in that conflict. It was Bethar that was besieged by the Romans. Jerusalem still had no walls, except the piece left standing in 70 CE to shelter the Roman encampment.

The final battle of the war took place in Bethar, Bar-Kokhba’s headquarters, which housed both the Sanhedrin (Jewish High Court) and the home of the Nasi (leader). Bethar was a vital military stronghold because of its strategic location on a mountain ridge overlooking both the Valley of Sorek and the important Jerusalem-Bet Guvrin Road. Thousands of Jewish refugees fled to Bethar during the war. In 135 C.E., Hadrian’s army besieged Bethar and on the 9th of Av, the Jewish fast day commemorating the destruction of the first and second Holy Temples, the walls of Bethar fell. After a fierce battle, every Jew in Bethar was killed. Six days passed before the Romans allowed the Jews to bury their dead.
https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/js ... volt1.html

The significance of these differences becomes clear as one carefully compares the accounts. Luke emphasizes the destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70 in a way the other Gospels do not. All the Synoptics anticipate the fall of Jerusalem in the way they introduce the discourse, but Luke focuses on the short-term event in a way Matthew and Mark do not. His temporal indicators (vv. 9, 12) draw the reader back toward the present before really focusing on the end in verses 25-28. A transition begins to appear in verses 20-24, but until verse 19 the focus is still on events before the judgment of the capital in A.D. 70, which is not yet the end.


The speech makes several points. First, Luke clearly shows how the destruction of A.D. 70 is distinct from but related to the end. The two events should not be confused, but Jerusalem's destruction, when it comes, will guarantee as well as picture the end, since one event mirrors the other. Both are a part of God's plan as events move toward the end.

I think that the Jews thought that the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD meant the end of the age while Luke was insinuating differently. The other gospels were thinking that the destruction of the temple meant the end of the age was near while Luke is saying that the is saying that it is not something that is going to happen in succession.

"Two features of this discourse should not be overlooked. First, in verses 8-12 Jesus works from the end backwards and then in verse 25 leaps forward again in time, beyond Jerusalem's destruction to the end. Such a rewinding backwards in time is clear in light of the statement in verse 9 that the end will not come right away and the note in verse 12 that before all this--that is, the events of verses 8-11--other things will occur. With verse 12 and following, Jesus moves forward again, toward the description of Jerusalem's fall and the persecution that will accompany it. The issues of the end and the return of the Son of Man are deferred mostly until verse 25, with the reference to the times of the Gentiles in verse 24 serving as a transition into Jesus' statements about the end times. After Jerusalem falls, the period of Gentile rule will continue until the Son of Man returns."

So it will be at the end. When these cosmic signs are displayed, Jesus' followers can rest assured the end is near. In fact, when the whole discourse is taken into account, Jerusalem's fall--predicted as it is and mirroring the end as it does--also serves as a sign guaranteeing that what Jesus says about the end and redemption will come to pass. So Jesus says to look for two things: the fall of Jerusalem and cosmic signs. With these heavenly portents (vv. 25-26), the kingdom of God is near. In this text Luke speaks of the kingdom as not yet arrived, in contrast to earlier texts where it had already approached or come (10:9, 18; 11:20; 17:20). As has been noted, Luke sees the kingdom in two phases: an initial, already-present phase and a consummating, yet-to-come phase. The consummation will wrap up the promise in total fulfillment. Anticipation will become realization. The kingdom will be present in its fullness.

This will explain why the Jews believed that Jesus would come back in their life-time because they didn't distinguish what would happen in their generation and events to come way into the future. In the other gospels, generation was seen as the current generation. It is true that the destruction of Jerusalem happened in their generation. However, they went onto assume that this meant the end of the age would be in their generation also. Luke doesn't agree with that.

https://www.biblegateway.com/resources/ ... uction-End

Mark 13
1 As Jesus was leaving the temple, one of his disciples said to him, “Look, Teacher! What massive stones! What magnificent buildings!�
2 “Do you see all these great buildings?� replied Jesus. “Not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.�
3 As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple, Peter, James, John and Andrew asked him privately, 4 “Tell us, when will these things happen? And what will be the sign that they are all about to be fulfilled?�

Matthew 24
1 Jesus left the temple and was walking away when his disciples came up to him to call his attention to its buildings. 2 “Do you see all these things?� he asked. “Truly I tell you, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.�
3 As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. “Tell us,� they said, “when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?�

Luke 21
5 Some of his disciples were remarking about how the temple was adorned with beautiful stones and with gifts dedicated to God. But Jesus said, 6 “As for what you see here, the time will come when not one stone will be left on another; every one of them will be thrown down.�
7 “Teacher,� they asked, “when will these things happen? And what will be the sign that they are about to take place?�

Essentially identical so far and definitely referring to the destruction of the Temple during the siege of Jerusalem in 70 CE.

Mark 13
5 Jesus said to them: “Watch out that no one deceives you. 6 Many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am he,’ and will deceive many. 7 When you hear of wars and rumors of wars, do not be alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 8 Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be earthquakes in various places, and famines. These are the beginning of birth pains.

9 “You must be on your guard. You will be handed over to the local councils and flogged in the synagogues. On account of me you will stand before governors and kings as witnesses to them.10 And the gospel must first be preached to all nations. 11 Whenever you are arrested and brought to trial, do not worry beforehand about what to say. Just say whatever is given you at the time, for it is not you speaking, but the Holy Spirit.
12 “Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child. Children will rebel against their parents and have them put to death. 13 Everyone will hate you because of me, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved.

Matthew 24
4 Jesus answered: “Watch out that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Messiah,’ and will deceive many. 6 You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7 Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of birth pains.

9 “Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11 and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13 but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

Luke 21
8 He replied: “Watch out that you are not deceived. For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am he,’ and, ‘The time is near.’ Do not follow them. 9 When you hear of wars and uprisings, do not be frightened. These things must happen first, but the end will not come right away.�
10 Then he said to them: “Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. 11 There will be great earthquakes, famines and pestilences in various places, and fearful events and great signs from heaven.

12 “But before all this, they will seize you and persecute you. They will hand you over to synagogues and put you in prison, and you will be brought before kings and governors, and all on account of my name. 13 And so you will bear testimony to me. 14 But make up your mind not to worry beforehand how you will defend yourselves. 15 For I will give you words and wisdom that none of your adversaries will be able to resist or contradict. 16 You will be betrayed even by parents, brothers and sisters, relatives and friends, and they will put some of you to death. 17 Everyone will hate you because of me. 18 But not a hair of your head will perish. 19 Stand firm, and you will win life.

All very similar.

I bolded verses 9 and 12 in Luke and the corresponding verses in Mark and Matthew. I do not see all that much difference. In fact Luke is closer to Mark than Matthew is.

Mark 13
14 “When you see ‘the abomination that causes desolation’ standing where it does not belong—let the reader understand—then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 15 Let no one on the housetop go down or enter the house to take anything out. 16 Let no one in the field go back to get their cloak. 17 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 18 Pray that this will not take place in winter, 19 because those will be days of distress unequaled from the beginning, when God created the world, until now—and never to be equaled again.

20 “If the Lord had not cut short those days, no one would survive. But for the sake of the elect, whom he has chosen, he has shortened them. 21 At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or, ‘Look, there he is!’ do not believe it. 22 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 23 So be on your guard; I have told you everything ahead of time.

Matthew 24
15 “So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’ spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let no one on the housetop go down to take anything out of the house. 18 Let no one in the field go back to get their cloak. 19 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 20 Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again.

22 “If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. 23 At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or, ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. 24 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you ahead of time.

26 “So if anyone tells you, ‘There he is, out in the wilderness,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here he is, in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. 27 For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28 Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.

Luke 21
20 “When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city. 22 For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written. 23 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! There will be great distress in the land and wrath against this people. 24 They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

For the most part very similar. The biggest difference is that Luke changes the ‘abomination’ reference in Mark and Matthew into a reference to the siege of Jerusalem and realistically describes the aftermath of the siege. As previously discussed, expecting Gentiles to get a reference to an event that happened in Jerusalem over thirty years before (at the time Mark was writing) was something of a stretch. The siege of Jerusalem reference they would get right away. That Luke leaves intact the text underlined above from mark and Matthew shows that he is talking about the same events.

Mark 13
24 “But in those days, following that distress,
“‘the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
25 the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’

26 “At that time people will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory. 27 And he will send his angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of the heavens.

Matthew 24
29 “Immediately after the distress of those days
“‘the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’

30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.
31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

Luke 21
25 “There will be signs in the sun, moon and stars. On the earth, nations will be in anguish and perplexity at the roaring and tossing of the sea. 26 People will faint from terror, apprehensive of what is coming on the world, for the heavenly bodies will be shaken. 27 At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28 When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.�

Mark and Matthew use the exact quote from Isaiah. Luke paraphrases it. Not surprising since his audience is Gentiles. (Luke refers to scriptures from time to time but usually only when he is importing material from the other Gospels.) Otherwise the passages are very similar.

Mark 13
28 “Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. 29 Even so, when you see these things happening, you know that it is near, right at the door. 30 Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 31 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

Matthew 24
32 “Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. 33 Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it is near, right at the door. 34 Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

Luke 21
29 He told them this parable: “Look at the fig tree and all the trees. 30 When they sprout leaves, you can see for yourselves and know that summer is near. 31 Even so, when you see these things happening, you know that the kingdom of God is near.
32 “Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 33 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

Mark told the story of the fig tree that was not in season. In that passage (Mark 11) he interleaves fig tree / temple / fig tree / temple. Here in Mark 13 he refers to the fig tree coming into season as the sign that the end is near. He started the Olivet Discourse referring to the destruction of the Temple and ends the description of the end time signs with referring to the fig tree, previously associated with the Temple. This is all to happen before ‘this generation’ passes away. Matthew and Luke present this section in very similar language.

I see no significant difference in what the three Gospels are saying in this passage. The only noticeable difference is Luke dropping the rather shaky ‘abomination’ reference and substituting a reference that his Gentile audience would get. But it is clear that all three are talking about the same thing, a series of signs culminating in the destruction of the Temple as indicators of the imminent return of the Son of Man. Matthew and Luke slip in disclaimers here and there in their Gospels about just how imminent imminent is. (Including here) But they retain the Olivet Discourse because it is an important part of the story thanks to Mark. Only when it is simply no longer credible is it reversed, as in John and Acts.

Remember that only Mark has the Olivet Discourse as the main reason for writing his Gospel. He wants to renew fading faith in a quick return of Jesus as Paul expected to happen. Matthew wrote to ward off rabbinic Judaism. Luke wrote to ward off Matthew.

So Jesus could have said generation but there were different interpretations on what it meant.

I already showed that every time Jesus said ‘generation’ in the Gospels he meant generation in the everyday sense. It connects directly with the ‘not taste death’ passages and the destruction of the Temple as the sign of the end of days.

The reason no one references that the Temple was actually destroyed is that all their stories are set before that event. A ‘prophecy’ supposedly made in the past of something that had already happened when the story is being read lends power to the story when the reader recognizes the ‘prophesied’ event.

But you'd think that Luke would mention the fall of Jerusalem after Paul was executed? However, he is silent on that. He doesn't continue Acts. The New Testament does write about a prophetic event and then say it has been fulfilled:

Matthew 21:4-11

4 All[a] this was done that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying:

5 “Tell the daughter of Zion,
‘Behold, your King is coming to you,
Lowly, and sitting on a donkey,
A colt, the foal of a donkey.’�

Therefore it would be reasonable to comment that the prophecy of the destruction of the temple had been fulfilled according to the scriptures.

As I already explained, to mention the destruction of the Temple as a fulfilled prophecy would point out that it happened and Jesus was still a no-show. Acts was written much too late to still expect Jesus to show up, so Luke changed the game plan. The end of Mark 13 has Jesus tell his disciples to ‘Watch!� Acts 1 has the angels tell the disciples to stop watching. Instead of Jesus returning any day now, the expectation is switched to the descent of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost. And Luke has that happen right away, so Jesus is off the hook until some unspecified time in the future. John is even cruder in his approach (or at least the author of the add-on last chapter). He says that all that ‘not taste death’ stuff was just a misunderstanding. Jesus never said any of that.

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 654 by Ancient of Years]

Speaking of Bar Kokhba, in my opinion, he has more right to the title of Jewish Messiah than Jesus. I know, any Jewish readers will disagree, but hey...at least Bar actually ruled an independent Jewish state and kicked out the foreign rulers (for three years). That is what Jews say they expected of the Messiah to do (just not the three year bit).

[Claire Evans]

Clare Evans wrote:

polonius.advice wrote:

Since Matthew wasn't written until ten years AFTER the destruction of the Temple, Matthew knew what had happened before he wrote the prophecy.

Claire wrote>>>Why didn't the author of Matthew say that the prophecy had been fulfilled? We have that same passage in Mark 13 which is said to have been written between 50-70 AD.<<<

RESPONSE: Perhaps for the same reason the Gospel of John written after 94 AD didn’t. (Please note if a statement is only written after the fact, it isn’t really a prophecy at all).

Please consult post 645 to Ancient of Years for my commentary on this.


Claire wrote: >>I believe it is a case of wishful thinking. It was a widespread belief, and wish, that Jesus would return within their generation. We have the same thinking today. I believe the gospel writers misunderstood Jesus and possibility inserted the Luke 17:25 themselves which Jesus didn't say.

RESPONSE: Divine inspiration and inerrancy are supposed to be the essential elements of scripture. Not “Wishful thinking.�

“For all the books which the Church receives as sacred and canonical, are written wholly and entirely, with all their parts, at the dictation of the Holy Ghost; and so far is it from being possible that any error can co-exist with inspiration, that inspiration not only is essentially incompatible with error, but excludes and rejects it as absolutely and necessarily as it is impossible that God Himself, the supreme Truth, can utter that which is not true. …..Hence, because the Holy Ghost employed men as His instruments, we cannot therefore say that it was these inspired instruments who, perchance, have fallen into error, and not the primary author. For, by supernatural power, He so moved and impelled them to write -- He was so present to them -- that the things which He ordered, and those only, they, first, rightly understood, then willed faithfully to write down, and finally expressed in apt words and with infallible truth. Otherwise, it could not be said that He was the Author of the entire Scripture� (Providentissimus deus)


polonius.advice wrote:

RESPONSE: Scripture is supposed to be "God breahted" and therefore inspired and inerrant. But now you say that scripture contains errors and thus is not always inspired.[/b]

Claire wrote:>>>No, it isn't inerrant. Humans are fallible.>>>

RESPONSE: God isn't fallible. That's the point. Humans are fallible., not God. If scripture can be shown to have contained error, then it cannot be claimed to be divinely inspired. Moreover, if scripture is admitted to contain error, it cannot be regarded as infallible moral guide. Each reader has to discern what is bible truth or error.

Just because the Church thinks it's infallible, doesn't make it so. Nobody was in a trance when they wrote it. Being moved by the Holy Spirit doesn't suddenly make one infallible because they have the Holy Spirit in them.