God vs gods

[Elijah John]

Here on this site, one often hears from non-believers statements and questions doubting the existence of "gods", plural. Not sure why that is. Why not just question God, singular? In Western culture, that would be a more relevant question.

Hardy anyone believes in "gods" anymore. Hindus and Pagans maybe. But most folks here in in the West are either Jewish, Christian of Muslim. Monotheism is predominant.
(Whether or not Trinitarians are actual Monotheists is another debate).

But this leads to an important question. Why philosohically, (excluding reasons of upbringing or cultural conditioning) do SO many in the West believe in God, singular, as opposed to "gods" plural?

What IS the case for Monotheism, as opposed to Polytheism?

(please, this is not intended to become a "prove God or gods exists", thread)

[Divine Insight]

Can you stop evolution? Look where we came from, .. a rock. The train is far more complex than a rock. It has a head start.

This reveals that you do not understand evolution at all. A train does not have a "head start" in terms of evolution. On the contrary a train is destined to become a pile of rust if there is no intervention by humans to keep it maintained.

A train doesn't even have the ability to reproduce itself. It cant evolve at all. And even if a train had the ability to reproduce itself purposefully "Engineered" into it, that's no guarantee that it has a "head start" in terms of evolution. I could simply be a bad design and be destined to extinction anyway.

So just because something is complex does not mean that it has an 'evolutionary head start' on anything. So clearly you do not understand evolution well enough to even discuss the topic in a meaningful manner.

[goodwithoutgod]

[Replying to post 1 by Elijah John]

Psalms 82.1 (KJV)
God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.

[Elijah John]

[Replying to post 1 by Elijah John]

Psalms 82.1 (KJV)
God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.

I think the verse you are citing is evidence of Hebrew monolatry, before they moved onto strict monotheism, with the help and clarification of the prophets. I'm thinking "God" with the capitol "G" refers to YHVH, who was the chief God (and later promoted to the ONLY God in Hebrew thinking) and "the gods" small "g" refers to lesser, created spiritual beings, maybe even angels.

And just to be clear, "monolatry" refers to the practice of giving one's entire devotion to one God, (in this case YHVH) while acknowledging that other gods exist as well.

"Yahwism" was the Hebrew tribal devotion to YHVH.

[DanieltheDragon]

[Replying to post 67 by DanieltheDragon]

I believe you said you did not see a rational basis for either. Did not mean to put words in your mouth, if I did so.

But I told you repeatedly I do not want to have the whole "atheism vs theism" conversation, which is where your comments lead.

But you still are not getting what I am saying, or absorbing my attempted clarifications as to the point of this thread.

As far as I can see, you are not shedding any light on the subject of the OP.

---Dragon states:

"I really don't think it is fair to ask an atheist to make a case for gods."

---

EJ responds: Then don't even try.. frankly, I'd prefer that atheists DO NOT participate on this particular thread, that is unless they (and there are a few) can take one theistic position or the other, convincingly and in a way that shows they understand the competing theistic points of view, for the sake of argument. And avoid, for this thread, the whole theist vs atheist controversy.

I didn't think I needed to prove gods but show the rationale for gods being = to god. After all we are talking about god vs gods not the abrahamic god vs norse mythology

You are also seriously sidestepping the burden of proof you setup for yourself by claiming that gods was irrational and god was rational.

How about this why don't we have a 1v1 debate. Lets setup some ground rules we both can agree to.

I will to the best of my ability argue for gods regardless if I believe in it or not.

Possible debate topic:

a.)Is monotheism more rational than polytheism?

I like this because we don't have to argue belief etc we just have to discuss the rationality of something. I really think this could give you what you want.

b. Given deism as the natural order of things is polydeism more likely than monodeism?

[Elijah John]

[Replying to post 74 by DanieltheDragon]

Thanks Dan, but no thanks. I think that you are still not getting the point of the topic, or (and) I don't know how else to explain it. In effect, we are talking past each other. And if we are missing here, on the open forum and not connecting, I don't see how a 1 v 1 would be any more clarifying or illuminating.

I doubt we could even agree on the ground rules.

[arian]

Can you stop evolution? Look where we came from, .. a rock. The train is far more complex than a rock. It has a head start.

This reveals that you do not understand evolution at all. A train does not have a "head start" in terms of evolution. On the contrary a train is destined to become a pile of rust if there is no intervention by humans to keep it maintained.

Finally, thank the Lord you said that and not me. So you have to agree that if your Big-bang Evolution theory big banged 13.75 BILLION years ago with decay already present, we wouldn't even have a pile of rust, but more like a big stinky fume. We would be part of this big-fume. Actually this kind of explains 'inflation'.
If you admit that a train needs a 'maintainer', then how much more an entire complex and delicate universe?

A train doesn't even have the ability to reproduce itself. It cant evolve at all. And even if a train had the ability to reproduce itself purposefully "Engineered" into it, that's no guarantee that it has a "head start" in terms of evolution. I could simply be a bad design and be destined to extinction anyway.

"Purposefully Engineered"? Are you saying there is a part of 13.75 billion year evolution that has been purposefully engineered?

OK, what was 'before' the single celled bacteria? Rocks.
What did the train evolve from (with our help of course because you could wait a trillion years and a rock would never evolve anything, never mind a quantum string) According to your BB Evolution theory we can freely say that the train evolved from rock.
Where did our moon evolve from? You see where I'm getting with this? We have light at night, we have high and low tides because of the moon, correct? It's not like someone planned to create the moon to have light at night, or have high tides, am I right?

What we did by instinct to the rock to create the train out of is as part of evolution, a purposeless, unplanned, un-engineered accident just as any animal, or plant. If we the human monkey are from evolution, and even our mind is just a manifestation of our physical brain, then the train is also just a part of evolution. Every thought, every movement of the human ape is instinct/reaction to its environment.
The primordial gas [strike]created[/strike], sorry, evolved the galaxies with its trillions of stars, planets, and everything we have on this earth. Biological life is just as part of those primordial gasses as the train is. The ONLY difference is time, right?

I have listened to you guys, and studied this Big-bang Evolutionary process very carefully, and considering everything said so far, I understand that when we apes wave our hands in the air to say bye to somebody, it is NO different then a tree swaying its leaves and branches when it's windy.

Now, so we don't continue to derail the thread, we can start a New One called something like; "What Part of the 13.75 billion years of Evolution is NOT evolution?" if you wish!?

So just because something is complex does not mean that it has an 'evolutionary head start' on anything. So clearly you do not understand evolution well enough to even discuss the topic in a meaningful manner.

Define 'complex' in evolutionary terms?

What I mean is, what's the difference between an ape who breaks off a piece of branch from a tree, then cleans off the leaves from it, sits on an old rotted log and puts the stick in a hole in the log to fish for termites, and another ape who uses a chainsaw to cut up the log to remove the termites if everything is part of a purposeless, unplanned evolution created by time?

Another words, if a quantum speck of gravity can evolve an entire universe as we see it today, then please define, or explain to me when 'will', or 'complex', or 'plan', or 'design' comes into play within the 13.75 billion year evolution?

What is the difference between a human ape appearing out of a rock, and later in time as evolution waits, a train just happen to appear? And as I said, please don't give me that 'one is planned, designed, manufactured, and the other evolved' since no part of evolution is planned.

[arian]

@ Arian...This is the kind of argument I was looking for:

"You know very well why there can ONLY be One God, the Creator, .. because of infinite regress. The created gods are created by the created, but the CREATOR cannot be created by the created. That would be nonsensical. The Creator can only be ONE, just as there can be only ONE 'infinity', and ONE 'eternity'."

----

Not sure if you went far enough here, but I this is along the lines I was hoping for in this thread.

Well thank you my dear friend Elijah John. I agree that in almost every thread we seem to wonder off from the OP, but I guess that's why we need Moderators to get us back on track, or at least headed in the same direction.

I would be happy to elaborate more on this, which leads us back to the subject; mind/spirit, and the brain.
The mind (as I have explained many times before) cannot be the result of the physical brain, just as a computer could never create a human programmer.

The mind is eternal, we can imagine galaxy after galaxy in our mind, and never run out of room. Another words, we would never reach a point where we would have to say, "well, there is just no more room for me to think of another galaxy, not even another planet."

Now once we start creating, whatever we create is the 'created'. We can continue creating in our mind throughout eternity because the mind is infinite, but those created things will never become infinite, only lots and lots. If I create a car, that car will never be able to create my mind the Creator. Now I can create a computer that can also create things, but here too, it (the computer) could never create my mind.

I can make a computer to reason, create, but only from what I have put in there. I am still the Creator, and the computer will always be the created, and can only reason and create from what information I have programmed in there. So the created computer could create another computer that could create, and here is where we have the infinite regress.

But now let's imagine we have created a whole bunch of AI robots, (like in the movie I-Robot with Will Smith), and let's say these robots killed off all of us humans the Creator. So now I believe is your question; after a few thousand years, how would an AI robot know it has a creator, especially if they could continue to build other robots?

And the answer is simple; "infinite regress".

If I-robot created you-robot, and another robot created me I-robot, then who created the first I-robot? You see? The answer is right there, in the question; "who CREATED the first I-robot?"

If man created the first I-robot, then who created man?

Created, created the created, who created the created, .. until we get to the Creator.

So WHO is the Creator? And as I have shown you that the mind can only create, and that it is eternal and infinite. You have it, I have it, all mankind has it, and it is of God and it IS God. It is spirit-God.

So since you can't create your mind, but you can create anything else WITH your mind, your/mine/our mind IS the CREATOR, or more properly, it is OF the Creator, which He placed into a physical body. This makes God an individual also. We are 'Children of God'. As gods, we have free will just as God does. We have the ability to deny our Creator, which is really stupid because we are denying our self.

We can deny the Creator, and can create a created creator to worship, which makes our Creator angry and jealous. What is He jealous of? It is the amount of time and effort we waist into worshipping these idols we created. By this we have stopped growing, and instead we regress below the idols we have created. We, Children of the Most High God, fall on our knees to wood, stone, or some dumb ideas, when we are called to create with God throughout eternity. The joy of it is beyond imagination. But when we reduce ourselves below something we have created, it becomes an abomination to our God and even to ourselves.

So to answer God vs gods, it is the Creator vs the created.

Who is the Creator?

He is; God, the Infinite, Eternal, Creative Mind "I Am Who I Am".

Unfortunately, you polluted the waters somewhat with your smears against the RCC.

It is one thing to be critical of it's theology, and even it's practices, but to assert that Pope Francis advocates the worship or Lucifer is just false, and is a smear.

I too have been critical of the church of my youth, but I try to be fair and accurate, and try not to misrepresent what they actually believe and profess.

At least try to get your facts straight.

I pointed out a very important event, I blew the trumpet as a warning to what's coming. Please see my post to Danmark, I hope that explains my stand!?

Thank you and God bless you all.

[Elijah John]

[Replying to post 77 by arian]

You don't have to convince me that we have a Creator, but the question I'm asking is why ONE Creator, and not a commitee of co-eternal Creator gods?

Infinite regress does make sense, but why does it necessarily lead to the point of ONE God?

What is the rational basis for MONOtheism, as opposed to Polytheism or even Theism in general?

[arian]

[Replying to post 77 by arian]

You don't have to convince me that we have a Creator, but the question I'm asking is why ONE Creator, and not a commitee of co-eternal Creator gods?

Great my friend, I think we are narrowing it down.

Why there cannot be other co-eternal Creator gods? Because one 'Infinity' is all we need, and is all there is. And since God is an Infinite, Eternal Creative Mind I Am Who I Am, He is all there is, and He is all we need. Even God himself couldn't create another Infinite, Eternal God since He is already Infinite. So where could He put another Himself in? Could you think of another mind within your mind?

Now Satan can influence our mind with different beliefs, clouding our mind where we get all confused, but that is still us, our mind/spirit. Only we are no longer "God minded". When we read Jesus teaching as to the 'newness of our mind', this makes perfect sense.

Now God did figure a way out to make an 'image' of Himself us humans, with individual bodies, and individual wills, but obviously we know we are the 'created', not the Creator. Only when we are in the Spirit, one in mind with God, we are God, or more accurately; "God minded".
When I say 'Creator' with a capital 'C', I mean 'the Creator of All things'.

Infinite regress does make sense, but why does it necessarily lead to the point of ONE God?

It leads to One who created everything, and everything He created is IN HIM. All things are IN God, and from God, remember? Just like all concepts are in our mind, and from our mind. When, or 'once' we create it is now a created thing. (I have more on this, but I don't want you to get off track.)

So when we think, it is God in us thinking as a separate individual, creating new concepts and ideas as me 'Odon' (Christians gravely underestimate the Tower of Babel story) I believe this is how God knows all things, because what we think, He thinks, and what we know, He knows because our mind/spirit is of God and is God.

God has a search engine (r) called the Spirit of God. But since God is Spirit Himself, this part of God that searches the deepest wisdom of God has a particular purpose. Just like us, when we think, we can have what we call; 'writers block'. This doesn't mean that we lost our mind, or that in those moments we don't actually have a mind right? As we think, or spirit within us is searching until it finally creates a concept, which is still in our mind, .. right?

I said there is more, right? If we can create a concept, and visualize it in our mind (let's say a particular car design) why is it that we have to make that from materials outside our mind to make it what we call; "Reality"?

Now even greater question, how does Gods Spirit come up with a concept, and create it (making it a created thing, or what we the created would call; a real thing) since all things are inside God?
Now this is what is truly amazing, where I see and can understand that ALL things are possible with God.

What is the rational basis for MONOtheism, as opposed to Polytheism or even Theism in general?

Even though these words seem to define One God, but in reality it's just 'one from amongst the others'. Like I used to refer to the "Toy soldiers in a little toy box" vs. the father of a child. The child can pick a toy soldier and call it 'dad', right? He could even make himself believe that is his dad.

'Theism' is the toy box, and religion is the 'make-believe'.

[Zzyzx]

.

Why there cannot be other co-eternal Creator gods? Because one 'Infinity' is all we need, and is all there is.

Do set this forth as truth / fact or as opinion? If you claim truth kindly substantiate both claims.

And since God is an Infinite, Eternal Creative Mind I Am Who I Am, He is all there is, and He is all we need.

So say tales in ancient religion promotion literature. Is there a way that anyone interested can verify their truth and accuracy?

Even God himself couldn't create another Infinite, Eternal God since He is already Infinite. So where could He put another Himself in? Could you think of another mind within your mind?

Many pretend, claim or profess to know a great deal about invisible, undetectable supernatural entities -- evidently based upon reading a book of stories and perhaps having emotional episodes.

IF one or more of the thousands of proposed "gods" existed as an "infinite" entity, HOW exactly would mere humans understand its / their capabilities and limitations?

Now Satan can influence our mind with different beliefs, clouding our mind where we get all confused, but that is still us, our mind/spirit.

"Satan" is one of the supernatural characters proposed by religionists (ancient and modern) and is assigned characteristics, abilities and limitations in keeping with the story line.