Gospel truth – or a grand conspiracy?

[Easyrider]

If the Gospels and Epistle writers were not being truthful in their depictions of Jesus Christ as a miracle worker, the Jewish Messiah, the Son of God, the resurrected Savior, and so on, then I think someone needs to provide a compelling motive, backed up by some sort of credible evidence, as to why some nine or so different New Testament authors shared such a common vision? What was their motive for a non-Biblical Jesus, considering their lives were on the line either way, and since such a pack of (alleged) lies should be easily refuted by others who knew a “different” Jesus? Why the “grand conspiracy” if Jesus is not who they claimed?

So, two things are asked for here: (1) A credible motive for a non-Biblical Jesus that takes into account the authors putting their lives on the line for an alleged lie (or whatever), and (2) Some kind of credible evidence to support that theory.

[Easyrider]

No, I was referring to the Old Testament Israelites (not the religious leaders per se) who killed their own prophets.

Really? Which ones?

Maybe you’re relying on this…?

That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar. Matt. 23:35 (par. Luke 11:51)

Not that Abel was a prophet, or Cain was an Israelite, but hey, why should we start recognizing facts now?

Maybe you’re ‘reasoning’ like these guys…?

"In Mk.12:1-12 Jesus gave a parable teaching that God sent many servants to his vineyard (Israel) but they ended killing them until finally God said he would send his son (Vs.6-7; Lk.20:13-15). The story illustrates how the prophets were sent to their own people who rejected and killed them."

At least some people don’t think that the Real ProphetsTM had it so bad though…

"As mentioned above, if a prophet ever spoke a single word for the Lord that didn't come true, all his writings were destroyed and he was killed." Now that's funny!

I’m sure that you’re not just making this up so let’s see how many of those OT prophets were killed by the Israelites…

How the Prophets Died*
(in no particular order)

Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven. No death!

Elisha died in bed in his own house (2 Kings 13:14-19). Died of old age.

Moses lived until 120. Died of old age.

Joshua His work being done, he died, at the age of one hundred and ten years, twenty-five years after having crossed the Jordan. Died of old age.

Nehemiah set himself with vigour to rectify the flagrant abuses that had sprung up, and restored the orderly administration of public worship and the outward observance of the law of Moses. Of his subsequent history we know nothing. Probably he remained at his post as governor till his death (about B.C. 413) in a good old age.

Samuel his death took place at Ramah when he was probably about eighty years of age. "And all Israel gathered themselves together, and lamented him, and buried him in his house at Ramah" 1Sam (25:1). Died of old age.

Daniel The time and circumstances of his death are not recorded. He probably died at Susa, about eighty-five years of age. Died of old age.

Hosea was directed by Yahweh to marry a harlot. The period of his ministry (extending to some sixty years) is indicated in the superscription (Hos. 1:1, 2). He is the only prophet of Israel who has left any written prophecy. Died of old age.

Jeremiah was persecuted by the religious leaders, and faced a great deal of hostility and resistance, including an attempted execution.
He lived till the reign of Evil-merodach, son of Nebuchadnezzar, and must have been about ninety years of age at his death. Died of old age.

(There's no evidence that any of these following 'prophets' came to a bad end. The Bible doesn't mention that they are in any particular danger of anything, it just doesn't record their deaths, possibly because they were unremarkable?)

Nathan last appears assisting David in reorganizing the public worship (2 Chr. 29:25). He seems to have written a life of David, and also a life of Solomon (1 Chr. 29:29; 2 Chr. 9:29). The time and manner of his death are unknown.

Ezra put the Old Testament much into the shape in which it is still found in the Hebrew Bible. The time and manner of his death are unknown.

Esther The time and manner of her death are unknown.

Iddo The time and manner of his death are unknown.

Jehu The time and manner of his death are unknown.

Shemaiah The time and manner of his death are unknown.

Malachi although not even a real person, just for fun - The time and manner of his death are unknown.

Habakkuk Practically nothing is known about Habakkuk's personal history. Habakkuk is unique among the prophets in that he openly questions the wisdom of God. The time and manner of his death are unknown.

Haggai Scarcely anything is known of his personal history. The time and manner of his death are unknown.

Nahum All we know of him is recorded in the book of his prophecies. He was probably a native of Galilee, and after the deportation of the ten tribes took up his residence in Jerusalem. The time and manner of his death are unknown.

Micah Very little is known of the circumstances of his life. The time and manner of his death are unknown.

Joel The time and manner of his death are unknown.

Jonah The time and manner of his death are unknown.

Amos The time and manner of his death are unknown.

Obadiah Copied Jeremiah (or vice versa). The time and manner of his death are unknown.

Ezekiel was probably carried away captive with Jehoiachin (1:2; 2 Kings 24:14-16) about B.C. 597. His prophetic call came to him "in the fifth year of Jehoiachin's captivity" (B.C. 594).
The time and manner of his death are unknown.

Isaiah There is a tradition that he suffered martyrdom in the heathen reaction in the time of Manasseh, but the time and manner of his death are unknown.

(Ooh, So close! Now, this next bunch had it rough, but their deaths weren't the result of any animosity on the part of the OT Israelites.)

Uriah is known for burning the manuscript of one of the prophecies of Jeremiah. Killed by King Jehoiakim.

Zephaniah was put to death by the king of Babylon "at Riblah in the land of Hamath" (2 Kings 25:21). Killed by Nebuchadnezzar.

Ahijah fled and took refuge at the altar, and received pardon for his conduct from Solomon on the condition that he showed himself "a worthy man" (1 Kings 1:5-53). Afterwards, Adonijah made a second attempt to gain the throne, but was seized and put to death (1 Kings 2:13-25). Killed by King Solomon.

Zechariah They conspired against him, and stoned him with stones at the commandment of the king in the court of the house of Yahweh. Chron. 24:20-21 Killed by King Joash.

So, the total number of prophets killed by the OT Israelites = ZERO!

Thanks, Easyrider. That was fun.

* Most of this information can be found at ChristianAnswers.net.

Nehemiah 9:26 "But they were disobedient and rebelled against you; they put your law behind their backs. They killed your prophets, who had admonished them in order to turn them back to you; they committed awful blasphemies. 27 So you handed them over to their enemies, who oppressed them. But when they were oppressed they cried out to you. From heaven you heard them, and in your great compassion you gave them deliverers, who rescued them from the hand of their enemies.

Now it's you vs. Nehemiah, who I have to believe knew a little more about these matters than you do.

[Lotan]

Now it's you vs. Nehemiah, who I have to believe knew a little more about these matters than you do.

You can believe whatever you like. The author of Nehemiah isn’t worried about historical accuracy here, this is Yahwist propaganda for a generation born in exile…

Why has YHWH forsaken us, didn’t we have a deal?

The children of Israel "were disobedient and rebelled". They broke the deal so YHWH used the Babylonians to punish them. He "handed them over to their enemies, who oppressed them."

But why did he send the Persians?

Because you have repented. You "cried out" to YHWH (and not some other god), so in His “great compassion” He sent "deliverers".

So Nehemiah's message here is simple - It's not God's fault.

Nehemiah doesn’t provide any details about these prophets, except that they "admonished" wrongdoers, or tell us who killed them, but we can assume that it wasn’t the peasants since they weren’t sent into exile nor did they likely enjoy the abundance described in 9:25.

Now, would you mind answering the question that I posed earlier?

If the OT Iraelites killed the prophets as you say, then who killed the rest ("then Jesus, then Stephen - a disciple, then James, and before that John the Baptist")?

I would be especially interested to know who you think killed Jesus.

[Easyrider]

You can believe whatever you like. The author of Nehemiah isn’t worried about historical accuracy here, this is Yahwist propaganda for a generation born in exile…

No foundation.

Now, would you mind answering the question that I posed earlier? If the OT Iraelites killed the prophets as you say, then who killed the rest ("then Jesus, then Stephen - a disciple, then James, and before that John the Baptist")?

What do the Scriptures say? I refer you to them.

I would be especially interested to know who you think killed Jesus.

Again, what do the Scriptures say? I refer you to them.

[juliod]

What do the Scriptures say? I refer you to them.

Didn't Lotan list what the bible says about the deaths of the prophets? Didn't you even read his posts?

What you gave us is a single quote which was an oblique reference outside it's original context.

Which prophets does the bible say were killed by the Israelites?

DanZ

[Easyrider]

Didn't Lotan list what the bible says about the deaths of the prophets? Didn't you even read his posts?

What you gave us is a single quote which was an oblique reference outside it's original context.

Which prophets does the bible say were killed by the Israelites?

DanZ

Which prophets was Nehemiah talking about when he said they killed the prophets? Do I look like I have an ancient compendium of all these things? Suffice it to say the case is made from Old and New Testament Scriptures that the Israelites and others killed a number of Israel's prophets, etc.

Got something else you want to talk about?

[Lotan]

No foundation.

As I said, you can believe whatever you like.

What do the Scriptures say? I refer you to them.

But I'm not asking what the scriptures say. I am asking (for the 4th time now) who you were referring to when you made this statement...

They killed the prophets in the Old Testament too, then Jesus, then Stephen - a disciple, then James, and before that John the Baptist.

I would be especially interested to know who you think killed Jesus.

Again, what do the Scriptures say? I refer you to them.

And again, the question was who do you think killed Jesus.

Suffice it to say the case is made from Old and New Testament Scriptures that the Israelites and others killed a number of Israel's prophets, etc.

The case is hardly "made". All that you have shown is that the author of Nehemiah said that "Israelites and others(?)killed a number of Israel's prophets, etc(?)."

[Easyrider]

No foundation.

As I said, you can believe whatever you like.

What do the Scriptures say? I refer you to them.

But I'm not asking what the scriptures say. I am asking (for the 4th time now) who you were referring to when you made this statement...

They killed the prophets in the Old Testament too, then Jesus, then Stephen - a disciple, then James, and before that John the Baptist.

I would be especially interested to know who you think killed Jesus.

Again, what do the Scriptures say? I refer you to them.

And again, the question was who do you think killed Jesus.

Suffice it to say the case is made from Old and New Testament Scriptures that the Israelites and others killed a number of Israel's prophets, etc.

The case is hardly "made". All that you have shown is that the author of Nehemiah said that "Israelites and others(?)killed a number of Israel's prophets, etc(?)."

Well I've provided what I've provided in my previous posts. If that's not enough for you feel free to do some more research on your own.

[Lotan]

Well I've provided what I've provided in my previous posts. If that's not enough for you feel free to do some more research on your own.

So are you saying then, that you don't know who you were talking about when you said...

They killed the prophets in the Old Testament too, then Jesus, then Stephen - a disciple, then James, and before that John the Baptist.

...or do you have some other reason for your reticence?

It sure sounds like you intended to say that it was the same "They" who killed everyone on that list.

[Easyrider]

Well I've provided what I've provided in my previous posts. If that's not enough for you feel free to do some more research on your own.

So are you saying then, that you don't know who you were talking about when you said...

They killed the prophets in the Old Testament too, then Jesus, then Stephen - a disciple, then James, and before that John the Baptist.

...or do you have some other reason for your reticence?

It sure sounds like you intended to say that it was the same "They" who killed everyone on that list.

Get a new dog, Lotan.

[Lotan]

Get a new dog, Lotan.

I don't know what you mean. Would you like to retract the statement?