Real debate of the evidence for resurrection

[Zzyzx]

.
From a current thread:

Testimonials are worth nothing in debate.

Which is why there is so little real debate in any of these forums...opinions abide.

Let's really debate the presence or absence of verifiable evidence that Jesus died and came back to life -- excluding testimonials and opinions.

[The Nice Centurion]

[Replying to Clownboat in post #70]
No, I cannot supply a metaphor detector for the bible, and this is exactly my point!

These days not only christians, but also atheists play pick and choose about what they wish to be metaphors and what not.

The same pick and choose is commonly done with the question what biblical advice we should still follow.

Evangelicals, for example, no longer want to put to death witches and homosexualists, for that would be bad propaganda. So they shame the bible and its laws by saying that this advices no longer must be obeyed.

[TRANSPONDER]

[Replying to Clownboat in post #70]
No, I cannot supply a metaphor detector for the bible, and this is exactly my point!

These days not only christians, but also atheists play pick and choose about what they wish to be metaphors and what not.

The same pick and choose is commonly done with the question what biblical advice we should still follow.

Evangelicals, for example, no longer want to put to death witches and homosexualists, for that would be bad propaganda. So they shame the bible and its laws by saying that this advices no longer must be obeyed.

I'm not sure that atheists do play the 'Metaphor' card. That is a Bible apologetic ploy.

Of course, we goddless can suggest that something is a metaphor, but only because the Bible - believers need it as an excuse as to why something that is plainly not right does not discredit the Bible.

Aside Genesis, take the cursing of the fig tree. It was a joke that people seriously debated this like it really happened. Mark and Matthew can't even agree on which day it happened and Luke and John have (of course) never heard of it. I recall once even suggesting that Mark must be the original and true version as Jesus could arrange (like the donkey for the next morning) for the fig tree to be dead and withered before breakfast, whereas in Matthew, the plant clutches at its' throat and keels over when Jesus points an accusing finger at it.

So when I, an atheist, suggest that it's just a metaphor for the fall of Jerusalem because the Jews rejected Jesus, I'm not making an atheist apologetic but rather taking pity on the Bible apologists. Either way as claimed truth or Metaphorical truth, it does Bible apologetics no good whatsoever.

[The Nice Centurion]

[Replying to TRANSPONDER in post #72]
But thats exactly what I mean. Either here or in another forum I saw an extra thread that had atheists debate "the cursing of the fig three" as a real happening.

Presumably for the sake of argument and to make Jesus look bad as a childish plant-abuser.
But no matter. You on the other hand see it as joke/metaphor.

Pick and choose-Hignoon is above all religious stands!

[TRANSPONDER]

[Replying to TRANSPONDER in post #72]
But thats exactly what I mean. Either here or in another forum I saw an extra thread that had atheists debate "the cursing of the fig three" as a real happening.

Presumably for the sake of argument and to make Jesus look bad as a childish plant-abuser.
But no matter. You on the other hand see it as joke/metaphor.

Pick and choose-Hignoon is above all religious stands!

Re "but also atheists play pick and choose about what they wish to be metaphors and what not"

Yes, but we atheists are not, then, playing the metaphor card, are we? We are treating it as a real occurrence, even if we don't believe it, which I guess we hellbound heathens don't, in the various ways Mark and Matthew have it. Though I'm sure some besides myself have suggested that Peter poisoned the roots during the night ('Miracles don't happen') though I have never seen anyone else suggest the 'the time for Jesus to be accepted was not yet' metaphor.

[The Nice Centurion]

[Replying to post 7 by Divine Insight]

Why would a God who wants to impress people with his magical powers not restore Jesus to pristine health? That fact alone makes me question the entire thing.

He campaigned diligently for about 3 years before dying, but in the 40 days after resurrecting he failed to take any advantage of his unique status and essentially did nothing.

True! He went into hiding, and in his appearances he mostly was not recogniced at first even by friends -Which is strongly suspicious!
The only miracle (if that is öficially counted as one) is his finally descending to heaven. But that is told shadier than Romulus descending to heaven.

[Diogenes]

[Replying to post 7 by Divine Insight]

Why would a God who wants to impress people with his magical powers not restore Jesus to pristine health? That fact alone makes me question the entire thing.

He campaigned diligently for about 3 years before dying, but in the 40 days after resurrecting he failed to take any advantage of his unique status and essentially did nothing.

True! He went into hiding, and in his appearances he mostly was not recogniced at first even by friends -Which is strongly suspicious!
The only miracle (if that is öficially counted as one) is his finally descending to heaven. But that is told shadier than Romulus descending to heaven.

Yes, another fantastic religious story. Not quite as unbelievable as Mohamed's anachronistic mythical 'Night Journey' on al-Buraq to a mosque in Jerusalem that was not there in his lifetime. It always amuses me when myth believers endorse the fables from their traditions, while ridiculing the fantasies of others.
https://aslamsheriqbal.wordpress.com/20 ... nt-page-1/

[EDIT]
By the way, what metaphors do you think non theists believe are something more than metaphors? I am not aware of any symbols or metaphors that I mistake for reality, but I am always willing to learn. For example I am aware that what appears to my senses is not real; that I am experiencing neuro-chemical-electrical phenomena in my consciousness that only represents some objective exterior reality. If that is a metaphor for ultimate reality, than so be it, but at least I am aware there is a difference.

[The Nice Centurion]

[Replying to Diogenes in post #76]
Very interesting! That proves that Mohamed not only owned a flying horse but also found Longinus Time Machine.
viewtopic.php?p=1084052#p1084052
The Roman Soldier must have buried it in the arabic desert, wen he was at it and buried one of his Holy Lances in Antiochia!