I have heard all the retohric, the Bible versus etc etc etc
What Im looking for is proof to the hypothesis of God. I would love to see tangible proof or if not at least one logical argument. So far I have not seen nor heard either.
Please note the words "Tangible" and "Logical". If wish to use quotes from the religious texts then please prove the vadility of the source. e.g. If you quote from the Bible book of Luke please provide proof Luke existed and was not completly stark raving mad.
Blessed is the mind too small for doubt for it is easily filled with faith.
Anyone got proof of God
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Post #71
What is his argument exactly then?otseng wrote: Denton is not talking about current animals that might look different. His argument is much different than that.
How to explain what? how to explain the universe before life started?Actually, the main problem is how to explain it before life got started. Natural selection only applies to life, not non-life.
Beati paupere spiritu
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Post #72
I'd rather not reiterate the thread here. It's best to read through the thread at: Nature's Destiny - Michael Denton.Cogitoergosum wrote:What is his argument exactly then?otseng wrote: Denton is not talking about current animals that might look different. His argument is much different than that.
How to explain what? how to explain the universe before life started?Actually, the main problem is how to explain it before life got started. Natural selection only applies to life, not non-life.
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Post #73
Definition of Proof:- any factual evidence that helps to establish the truth of something; "if you have any proof for what you say, now is the time to produce it"
8 pages of post yet no proof or factual evidence or logical arguemnts provided, you guys are struggling.
I am not making an outrages claim that there is some supernatural being controlling and creating the Universe, The burden of proof does not fall upon my shoulders for I am not the claiment.
I do not have to prove there is no God I simply ask for "proof" "evidence" "Logical argument" yet so far absolutly nothing has been produced. I have not even said there is not God.
If there is no proof, evidence or logical argument for the existense of God then we can assume what?................ There is no God?
I can find more evidence for the existence of Yeti, Loch ness monster and UFOS than for an all powerful all seeing being.
All Ive got so far is
(1) My mommy and daddy told me that God exists.
(2) Therefore, God exists
8 pages of post yet no proof or factual evidence or logical arguemnts provided, you guys are struggling.
I am not making an outrages claim that there is some supernatural being controlling and creating the Universe, The burden of proof does not fall upon my shoulders for I am not the claiment.
I do not have to prove there is no God I simply ask for "proof" "evidence" "Logical argument" yet so far absolutly nothing has been produced. I have not even said there is not God.
If there is no proof, evidence or logical argument for the existense of God then we can assume what?................ There is no God?
I can find more evidence for the existence of Yeti, Loch ness monster and UFOS than for an all powerful all seeing being.
All Ive got so far is
(1) My mommy and daddy told me that God exists.
(2) Therefore, God exists
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Post #74
Have you examined the infinate universes and first cause threads? How about the information about the resurrection?nine dog war wrote:Definition of Proof:- any factual evidence that helps to establish the truth of something; "if you have any proof for what you say, now is the time to produce it"
8 pages of post yet no proof or factual evidence or logical arguemnts provided, you guys are struggling.
I am not making an outrages claim that there is some supernatural being controlling and creating the Universe, The burden of proof does not fall upon my shoulders for I am not the claiment.
I do not have to prove there is no God I simply ask for "proof" "evidence" "Logical argument" yet so far absolutly nothing has been produced. I have not even said there is not God.
If there is no proof, evidence or logical argument for the existense of God then we can assume what?................ There is no God?
I can find more evidence for the existence of Yeti, Loch ness monster and UFOS than for an all powerful all seeing being.
All Ive got so far is
(1) My mommy and daddy told me that God exists.
(2) Therefore, God exists
Even in todays courts, 100% proof is not required, even to sentence someone to death. What is required is a compilation of evidences which together make a case which is stronger than the alternatives.
Now if this is your definition of proof, then I believe that this forum is full of different types of evidences which corroborate to form a decent case for the existence of God.
One of my favorite quotes is from Renown Atheist Richard Dawkins during the discussion with Francis Collins for Time magazine. In short he admitted, like Einstein and Hawkings, that there seems to be a yet unknown common formula which could be used to tie the universe and everything in it together. I say this could easily be a sign of something outside of our universe, or better yet, an intelligence which organized our universe before sending it on its way.
In any case, this forum is full of evidences for God. Some are great, and some are poor. But I caution you in your demand of Proof because it sounds like you need proof which far exceeds that normally demanded. Or in other words you believe that extraordinary things require extraordinary proof, and idea that while catchy, lacks reason.
If this is your mindset then I must refer you to the second part of Welshboy's signature. . .
If no proof is enough for someone, then the problem lies with that individual, not with the proof.To the believer, no proof is necessary; to the skeptic, no proof is enough.
It is a first class human tragedy that people of the earth who claim to believe in the message of Jesus, whom they describe as the Prince of Peace, show little of that belief in actual practice.
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Post #75
This is what I am asking for yet NO evidence has been provided.What is required is a compilation of evidences which together make a case which is stronger than the alternatives.
What evidences?......, just because many children believe in Santa, it does not make him real.Now if this is your definition of proof, then I believe that this forum is full of different types of evidences which corroborate to form a decent case for the existence of God.
It is not a demand for proof it is a simple question that is yet to be answered. I do not need extraordinary proof, any proof or evidence or logical argument will suffice but has yet to be provided. This alone lacks reason, you believe without explaination therefore you cant explain what you believe which this thread seems to demonstrate.But I caution you in your demand of Proof because it sounds like you need proof which far exceeds that normally demanded. Or in other words you believe that extraordinary things require extraordinary proof, and idea that while catchy, lacks reason.
The courts do not need 100% proof, but they still need proof. I will settle for 1% proof, I will even settle for a logical argument.
If no proof is enough for someone, then the problem lies with that individual, not with the proof. (You may wish to rethink this one, by this are you stating that the problem lies the individual that does not require proof)To the believer, no proof is necessary; to the skeptic, no proof is enough.
I am full of completley irrellevant phrases too.
Zeal is its own excuse.
My armour is contempt.
Ignorance is a virtue.
A wise man does not fear, a man afraid does not think.
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Post #76
Here are a few for starters.nine dog war wrote:This is what I am asking for yet NO evidence has been provided.What is required is a compilation of evidences which together make a case which is stronger than the alternatives.
What evidences?......, just because many children believe in Santa, it does not make him real.Now if this is your definition of proof, then I believe that this forum is full of different types of evidences which corroborate to form a decent case for the existence of God.
Evidence for a resurrection Review and comment on post #19
Examining the plausibility of a random universe
Examining the First Cause argument. Focus on the last 6 pages or so. The discussion between myself and Furrowed Brow was pretty good.
Different aspects of the God Hypothesis The last pages are particularily good.
An argument against the dismissal of miraculous accounts
This one you might find particularly useful. It addresses the "other arguments" as we discussed above.
Here is one about fair evaluation of evidence
Turning the tables on non-theists I asked them to fulfill the defense attorney portion and come up with an alternative explaination for all the facts. Only 2 or 3 even tried. I was saddly dissapointed.
The Historicity of Jesus I came in later in this thread. Maybe halfway through.
Read carefully and then write me back again. I didn't understand what you wrote, (probably because of grammer rather than intent) and I don't think you understood what I wrote.If no proof is enough for someone, then the problem lies with that individual, not with the proof. (You may wish to rethink this one, by this are you stating that the problem lies the individual that does not require proof)To the believer, no proof is necessary; to the skeptic, no proof is enough.
It is a first class human tragedy that people of the earth who claim to believe in the message of Jesus, whom they describe as the Prince of Peace, show little of that belief in actual practice.
What's TRUTH? (What's true?)
Post #77It often takes so much more than "evidence" or "proof" to convince an individual of something.This is what I am asking for yet NO evidence has been provided.
The PROCESSES involved in the changing of a person's heart/mind, are a part of the formula which explains why some people accept certain things as being truth (reality) and others seeing something else.
There are and have been BILLIONS of people who think/believe they have evidence or proof of God's existence; still, those people AND unbelievers can only be convinced by certain aspects of reality, which very few (if any) actually "process" in the exact same manner.
Interestingly enough, I came to this conclusion by observing arguments over "homosexuality" moreso than arguments concerning the existence of (a) God. Facts, evidence, stats and figures (proof) can be numerous, but do not always guarantee the imparting of knowledge, understanding or wisdom. And to get a decent view of reality, people need a little of the many things I've listed. That is exactly why RELIGION alone is not all that some people need; and it's also why a secularly-oriented person might also do better by considering various aspects of religion at various points in their lives (whether they "believe" in it or not).
-Mel-
"It is better to BE more like Jesus and assume to speak less for God." -MA-
G'day Nine Dog War,
Post #78I hope you may consider how this Tangible(?) evidence may resolve your question/request.
First, what do you imagine 'God' is? If you limit this concept in your mind to finite bounds then you probably won't get this.
Existence an intangible but required for Reality to exist. Next, Reality is both tangible and intangible but required for time to exist.
Eternity is the limit of time and is infinite.
The premise for evidence is that 'God' (the source of all) is this Existence that precedes Eternity and therefore Time also one can see it precedes the observeable universe.
What can we know from this about 'God'?
Well, I can see that it is the bedrock/foundation of reality IN which the Physical (tangible) universe exists. Another implication is that it is everywhere present in the universe.
Amp
First, what do you imagine 'God' is? If you limit this concept in your mind to finite bounds then you probably won't get this.
Existence an intangible but required for Reality to exist. Next, Reality is both tangible and intangible but required for time to exist.
Eternity is the limit of time and is infinite.
The premise for evidence is that 'God' (the source of all) is this Existence that precedes Eternity and therefore Time also one can see it precedes the observeable universe.
What can we know from this about 'God'?
Well, I can see that it is the bedrock/foundation of reality IN which the Physical (tangible) universe exists. Another implication is that it is everywhere present in the universe.

Interesting; still people must be "convinced"
Post #79Amp,Well, I can see that it is the bedrock/foundation of reality IN which the Physical (tangible) universe exists. Another implication is that it is everywhere present in the universe.
To a strong atheist who doesn't believe, all you've proved is that YOU "believe".
I was once a devout (believe-it-all) Christian; but I've had good reasons for being "skeptical" about the many definitions of reality which many "Christians" possess such certitude about. And I think the manner in which some tend to PUSH from their side of the arguments, causes really good and fair questions to become contentious.
Some Christians (and other religious people) don't want anyone to question anything, when the very face of religion is all about the questions anyone could (and likely should) be asking. And I think that is why some very reasonable people have turned or walked away from religion, to science; at least quesions are expected to be asked, and answers proven and verified.
And while I understand that the INTANGIBLE is a direct aspect of faith/religion, it becomes unbearable to MANY human beings, when those "intangibles" are applied as a force for control and influence in this world (we're RIGHT, you're WRONG... because the "Bible" says so...etc.). Some believers (radical muslims come to mind at this point, certain fundamentalist-Christians later on) will NOT allow other human beings to entertain or possess a view of reality which differs (even slightly) from their own. And of all the BAD things I've seen come of "religion", that is the backbone of existing contentions and pressures which are affecting this world, even today.
Most importantly, the notion that anyone could be forced or made to believe, without going through a process which truly enables them to have real "faith", is a major part of the former and existing problems spawned by religion throughout history. As soon as we DICTATE what others should be believing, no matter who we are (or how RIGHT we think we are), we've most likely stepped over an important line as it relates to mutual respect and basic civility.
-Mel-
"It is better to BE more like Jesus and assume to speak less for God." -MA-
Interesting; but people still need to be "convinced&quo
Post #80Amp,Well, I can see that it is the bedrock/foundation of reality IN which the Physical (tangible) universe exists. Another implication is that it is everywhere present in the universe.
To a strong atheist who doesn't believe, all you've proved is that YOU "believe".
I was once a devout (believe-it-all) Christian; but I've had good reasons for being "skeptical" about the many definitions of reality which many "Christians" possess such certitude about. And I think the manner in which some tend to PUSH from their side of the arguments, causes really good and fair questions to become contentious.
Some Christians (and other religious people) don't want anyone to question anything, when the very face of religion is all about the questions anyone could (and likely should) be asking. And I think that is why some very reasonable people have turned or walked away from religion, to science; at least quesions are expected to be asked, and answers proven and verified.
And while I understand that the INTANGIBLE is a direct aspect of faith/religion, it becomes unbearable to MANY human beings, when those "intangibles" are applied as a force for control and influence in this world (we're RIGHT, you're WRONG... because the "Bible" says so...etc.). Some believers (radical muslims come to mind at this point, certain fundamentalist-Christians later on) will NOT allow other human beings to entertain or possess a view of reality which differs (even slightly) from their own. And of all the BAD things I've seen come of "religion", that is the backbone of existing contentions and pressures which are affecting this world, even today.
Most importantly, the notion that anyone could be forced or made to believe, without going through a process which truly enables them to have real "faith", is a major part of the former and existing problems spawned by religion throughout history. As soon as we DICTATE what others should be believing, no matter who we are (or how RIGHT we think we are), we've most likely stepped over an important line as it relates to mutual respect and basic civility.
-Mel-
"It is better to BE more like Jesus and assume to speak less for God." -MA-