How do I determine what God requires of me?

[McCulloch]

I have posted what I think is the single most important issue to debate.

To me, the second most important issue is this. If there is a God, how do I determine what God requires of me? If your answer involves something that is from human agency, a book or an organization, then the question remains, "How do I know that the book's authors or the organization's leaders authoritatively speak for God?"

How do I determine what God requires of me?

[Zzyzx]

.

Few adults fear monsters under the bed...

But they do fear and worry about death of a close family member, divorce, personal illness or injury, retirement, long working hours, excessive work pressure caused by time constraints and/or complexity, bullying and other forms of harassment, being laid off from a job, living on unemployment, social interaction with people who are rude, bossy, critical or aggressive, traffic jams, deadlines, commuting, misplaced keys, mechanical breakdowns, overeating, drinking, not enough sleep, overloaded schedule, negative thinking, unrealistic expectations, taking things personally, rigid thinking, burnout/exhaustion.

The monsters are no longer confined under the bed.

I agree that many adults are at least concerned about some of the issues you mention; however, I doubt that they are rightly considered “monsters”. Do misplaced keys represent a “monster” or a great fear in life?

Are ANY of the above concerns (or fears or worries) resolved by “turning to god”?

Would it not be more rational for a person to address the issues openly and honestly on their own rather than attempting to find an “answer” elsewhere (in religion)? That seems similar to the man looking for his lost car keys under a streetlight rather than out in the darkness where they were dropped because under the light it is easier to see.

Perhaps the answers are NOT in the supposed “light” provided by supernaturalism.

In my view, man is incapable of responding to God, unless God initiates the relationship.

If this view is correct, god evidently doesn’t want a relationship with most of humanity.

Most of humanity? I do believe that most of humanity suffers from a god delusion of one form or another, you are the minority.

You are correct IF your use of the term “God” in the quote above was intended to include ALL currently popular gods. Is that the way you intended “God” to be interpreted?

But, God operates on a time table, first he sows, then waits patiently while things grow and then he harvests. You are being given an opportunity to share in God's work so that you can share in God's joy when the harvest is ready.

Can you present any evidence other than “scripture” and dogma to substantiate that what you claim for god is true? Or, is it mere conjecture?

Many Non-Theists are FORMER Theists – who rejected religious teachings and indoctrination. Why would someone who concluded that religion was a fraud (or whatever they concluded in rejecting supernaturalism) “ask god” for help in believing?

You did.
You have a very good mind, I would easily place you in the top 10% if not higher, and yet you have a human mind, and human minds a prone to a lot of faulty thinking and blind spots. If you should ever trust your mind so fully that you can go against Pascal's Wager, I would suggest it is time to check your pride.

A “good mind” realizes that Pascal’s Wager is a foolish pursuit. If one seeks to worship gods “just in case they are real”, there are thousands of gods that MUST be worshiped “just in case”. Omitting even one could be omitting the “real god” since there is NO evidence to suggest which, if any, gods are real and which are false.

Some of the “gods” are said to require exclusivity of worship. How does Pascal cover that problem? Typically, those who evoke “the wager” are promoting ONE god and apply the wager only to their favorite god and do NOT worship other gods “just in case”. Thus, they promote their favorite gods by coercing others to do what they, themselves, refuse to do – worship gods “just in case”.

Which god, of the thousands available, should one ask?

Phrase your question to all of them, then form your own faith around the one that answers.

Okay. I hereby ask all gods to contact me with instructions and advice.

I will report to the forum all communication received.

What is the advantage in “believing”?

I could spend the rest of the day answering that one.
The first thing that comes to mind is that you have the assurance, that when bad things happen to you, that they are only temporary, and therefore can be endured far easier.

This is true or not true with or without god beliefs. It is, therefore, NOT an advantage of believing. Scratch one.

Are you claiming that an Iraq veteran’s leg amputation is temporary if s/he is a believer?

For example a broken femur bone is far more painful than arthritis, but you know that in six weeks the broken bone will just be a memory, but the arthritis will be with you for the rest of your life, therefore it is a bigger bummer.
It is just a good feeling knowing that when the universe comes to an end, you will still be going strong.

Perhaps not everyone is concerned with “feeling good” about what happens when the universe ends. Scratch two.

I, personally, have no interest in cultivating such “good feelings” based on supernatural beliefs and assumptions. I prefer to live in the real world we inhabit and to draw conclusions based on study of actual events and evidences rather than imagine “explanations” in the form of invisible super beings and nature-defying “miracles”.

[olavisjo]

Are ANY of the above concerns (or fears or worries) resolved by “turning to god”?

In my case they were. I lead a very tempestuous life, and before God, it was all too overwhelming for me, but now with every problem that comes up God gives me the victory over them. Your life may not be so consuming, but if it takes adversity to find God, then it is not such a bad thing.

You are correct IF your use of the term “God” in the quote above was intended to include ALL currently popular gods. Is that the way you intended “God” to be interpreted?

You don't have to know Gods name to give him honor, it is not what you say and do, that counts, it is how you say and do. Abraham did not have a bible and he did not know Gods name, yet God blessed him for how he responded to God.

Can you present any evidence other than “scripture” and dogma to substantiate that what you claim for god is true? Or, is it mere conjecture?

The spread of Christianity in the Roman Empire, The Protestant reformation in Germany, The three great awakenings in England and the USA.

Okay. I hereby ask all gods to contact me with instructions and advice.

I will report to the forum all communication received.

Thank you. I honestly believe that the key to transforming the world, will consist of similar simple acts.

Are you claiming that an Iraq veteran’s leg amputation is temporary if s/he is a believer?

I meant to say fractured bone which will heal in less than six weeks. But it is also true that the veterans will get a new legs when they get their new bodys.

[McCulloch]

But, God operates on a time table, first he sows, then waits patiently while things grow and then he harvests. You are being given an opportunity to share in God's work so that you can share in God's joy when the harvest is ready.

Can you present any evidence other than “scripture” and dogma to substantiate that what you claim for god is true? Or, is it mere conjecture?

The spread of Christianity in the Roman Empire, The Protestant reformation in Germany, The three great awakenings in England and the USA.

OK, that proves, if there was any doubt, that Christianity has been popular and like epidemics, has a tendency to hit populations in waves. However, the question was what you claim for God is true.

[olavisjo]

There is only really one monster which is the cause of all these fears you describe - that is an attachment to a false view of the mind-body process and a delusion as to its true nature.

What is this mind-body process and its true nature

Pride has nothing to do with Pascal's Wager which, BTW, has to be one of the worst, if not the worst, arguments for belief in your god.

Pascal's Wager is not an argument for belief in God, it is the motivation to search for God at the expense of all else, because you know that you are doomed if you do not find him.
For example, [strike]if you were flying in an airplane[/strike] (too many flying metaphors) if you were on the Titanic, when it was sinking, you could have sat on the deck enjoying your last minutes of life listening to the chivalrous musicians playing their violins, or you could have spent your energy trying to construct a raft out of anything you found that might float.

[Zzyzx]

.

Are ANY of the above concerns (or fears or worries) resolved by “turning to god”?

In my case they were. I lead a very tempestuous life, and before God, it was all too overwhelming for me, but now with every problem that comes up God gives me the victory over them.

The items you say are part of a “tempestuous life” in which you achieve victory with “gods help”:

1. death of a close family member,
2. divorce,
3. personal illness or injury,
4. retirement,
5. long working hours,
6. excessive work pressure caused by time constraints and/or complexity,
7. bullying and other forms of harassment,
8. being laid off from a job,
9. living on unemployment,
10. social interaction with people who are rude, bossy, critical or aggressive,
11. traffic jams,
12. deadlines,
13. commuting,
14. misplaced keys,
15. mechanical breakdowns,
16. overeating,
17. drinking,
18. not enough sleep,
19. overloaded schedule,
20. negative thinking,
21. unrealistic expectations,
22. taking things personally,
23. rigid thinking,
24. burnout/exhaustion

Do you realize that almost every item on the list is something that a person chooses for themselves – things that they decided to have in their life?

Most of those items are common or expected events that are part of life in modern times -- issues that most individuals have dealt with to some extent, many WITHOUT being overwhelmed to the extent of needing outside assistance. Are you claiming that your experiences are “worse” than those of others – or are you saying that due to personal characteristics you have particular difficulty dealing with adversity or difficulty?

Death of a close family member, divorce and personal injury or illness can cause difficulty for anyone. However, many deal with such issues successfully. Even WITH “god’s help” some are unable to successfully cope with divorce even years later (as repeatedly demonstrated by a forum member).

Do you really need god’s help to deal with misplaced keys, traffic, and long working hours? Do you realize that others navigate those difficulties without divine intervention? Are you perhaps overstating the case just a wee bit in an attempt to make a case for needing gods?

Your life may not be so consuming,

I am in charge of my life and I insure that it is not “so consuming” because I choose to NOT live that way. It is a personal decision.

but if it takes adversity to find God, then it is not such a bad thing.

Many apparently “find god” or “turn to god” when they have difficulty coping with life. Does that tell us anything about the people?

You are correct IF your use of the term “God” in the quote above was intended to include ALL currently popular gods. Is that the way you intended “God” to be interpreted?

You don't have to know Gods name to give him honor, it is not what you say and do, that counts, it is how you say and do. Abraham did not have a bible and he did not know Gods name, yet God blessed him for how he responded to God.

As you are very likely aware, I was NOT concerned about the “name” of god but asked specifically if you intend to include ALL gods in the statement cited? Did you honestly intend to include Allah, Zeus, Odin, Agrotora, Fukurokuju, Hathor, Mbomba, Necessitas, Quetzalcoatl, Tuchulcha and ALL of the thousands of other “gods” that are and have been feared, loved, and worshiped by humans? http://www.geocities.com/thewitchescircle/biggg.htm

Are you claiming that an Iraq veteran’s leg amputation is temporary if s/he is a believer?

I meant to say fractured bone which will heal in less than six weeks. But it is also true that the veterans will get a new legs when they get their new bodys.

Do you personally guarantee, with absolute certainty, a “new body” to injured veterans?

Pascal's Wager is not an argument for belief in God, it is the motivation to search for God at the expense of all else, because you know that you are doomed if you do not find him.

You contradict yourself AND you make an illogical assumption the space of a single sentence.

If one “finds” a god after all the searching (above all else) does one then NOT “believe”? It seems as though the motivation is to find and believe to avoid some catastrophe.

The illogical assumption is that catastrophe will befall one who does not “find” and believe in “god”. There is NO evidence presented to support this assumption.

The “doom” you mention is the selling point for religion. “Believe in my god or you will spend eternity in hell”. “Worship as directed by priests and prophets or you are doomed”. “We, the chosen people, are saved and all who worship false gods or no gods are going to be damned for eternity – because we priests say so and our book says so and ancient storytellers said so”.

[bernee51]

There is only really one monster which is the cause of all these fears you describe - that is an attachment to a false view of the mind-body process and a delusion as to its true nature.

What is this mind-body process and its true nature

The so-called 'person' is composed of a dual process of physicality and mentality. This is a natural process of mental and physical phenomena. It is essentially the same in all with the sense of an individual self arising from identification with a specific physical/mental process. This identification brings the sense of 'person' which is considered an 'I' or "you' who may desire to be rich, successful, saved etc. This is attachment arising from the false idea of an individual self.

The true nature of our being is then that we are born and die and all else in between is a mental construct - the contents of consciousness. We are deluded by attachment to the object side of "I am ..." into believing we have an individual self. It is this attachment that is the cause of suffering

t;]
Pride has nothing to do with Pascal's Wager which, BTW, has to be one of the worst, if not the worst, arguments for belief in your god.

Pascal's Wager is not an argument for belief in God, it is the motivation to search for God at the expense of all else, because you know that you are doomed if you do not find him.

But which god? And even if I decide on a god and believing because I think myself doomed if I don't is not really believing and any god worth its salt would see through this.

Besides isn't god's love unconditional? If so I don't need to 'find' god in order to benefit from that love. If I do need to find god in order to benefit then the love is not unconditional and as such is not love at all.

[olavisjo]

But, God operates on a time table, first he sows, then waits patiently while things grow and then he harvests. You are being given an opportunity to share in God's work so that you can share in God's joy when the harvest is ready.

Can you present any evidence other than “scripture” and dogma to substantiate that what you claim for god is true? Or, is it mere conjecture?

The spread of Christianity in the Roman Empire, The Protestant reformation in Germany, The three great awakenings in England and the USA.

OK, that proves, if there was any doubt, that Christianity has been popular and like epidemics, has a tendency to hit populations in waves. However, the question was what you claim for God is true.

Which claim?
God operates on a time table or the opportunity to share in God's work and joy.

[McCulloch]

However, the question was what you claim for God is true.

Which claim?
God operates on a time table or the opportunity to share in God's work and joy.

You have shown neither claim to be true. Things open up in a time table, but you have not shown God's hand in it.
People do what they perceive is God's work, but you have not shown that it is from God.

[olavisjo]

You have shown neither claim to be true.

You are right, I have not, and I don't think think that I can.
The truth of Christianity can not be discovered by debate and formal reasoning, it must come as a revelation from God.

16 Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.

17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.

There you have it, if you want to settle the debate about Christianity for good, do the will of God as outlined in the bible and you will know if it is true, if it does not work for you, then you can rest assured that Christianity is not for you.
I admit that it is a bit of an investment on your part, that may never pay any dividends, since there may be some to whom the Kingdom of God will be a mystery.

11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:

12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.

13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:

15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.

17 For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.

Matthew 11:15; 13:9,43
Mark 4:9,23; 7:16
Luke 8:8; 14:35
This may not seem fair to us, but are we in any position to negotiate terms with God?
I can only tell you that I surrendered, unconditionally, to God and found him to be more than fair.

[McCulloch]

The truth of Christianity can not be discovered by debate and formal reasoning, it must come as a revelation from God....
I can only tell you that I surrendered, unconditionally, to God and found him to be more than fair.

Then why doesn't God reveal the truth about his will to me. I don't currently believe, but I am willing to be convinced.