Born again?

[McCulloch]

Since you have in obedience to the truth purified your souls for a sincere love of the brethren, fervently love one another from the heart, for you have been born again not of seed which is perishable but imperishable, that is, through the living and enduring word of God.

Jesus said

• Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.
  Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
  Do not be amazed that I said to you, 'You must be born again.' The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit."

In what sense do Christians claim to have become born anew? Do the foolish become wise? Does the person get a new personality? What?

[twobitsmedia]

What makes you think I dont know what the evidence should be? This is another assertion on your part that is an unsupported assertion that has neither validity nor coherence.

Then, do tell, what is is supposed to be?

I happen to know what you are talking about as I was a Christian and have studied the subject for many decades even in college and grad school. I am not bragging as some was a waste of time. But that is true of anything.
What do you mean what is it suppose to be? I have to tell you what to believe now too?

Well, that's what I thought. You don't know.

I am questioning the meaning of the words you use and the claims you make.
I dont think there is a "suppose to be", it should at least make sense and correspond to your sacred writings. Your use of Zachariah is a good example of using a passage out of context to affirm your idea of being born again when it has little or nothing to do with your claim.

And the use of Zech was the diffrence between might and spirit. I don't know how you connected to anything else.

Maybe it is just some pretty words the group taught you to use.

There is a difference and I don't know what group you mean.

Do you worship with others that agree with you or is it just some personal relationship you imagine to be God or Jesus?

Neither

You claim that Christianity is not a religion is not supportable as even your claim to a personal relationship is how you define your religion and doesnt make it something different.

I have not made any such claim about Christianity. I have told you that I am not religous. "Christianity" is an ambiguous term in modern vernacular.

It is Not any more ambiguous then your claims.

So close yet so far.

I think you could have fooled everyone and maybe youre not religious.
I dont see where anything you have written is not ambiguous. You just keep claiming otherwise and have not desire or ability to explain. Maybe you should go beyond your ancient vernacular that fails to speak to us moderns.

Again, I don't know what you mean. The Bible is loaded with amibguity,. but that is the wisdom of it.

How is that wise?

It leaves open the possibilty for interpretations.




The rest of your comments are more of a "yes I did" and "no I didn't" type argument which I do not care to have, thanks.

[OnceConvinced]

It's easy to say anything. But the difference is spirit vs none.

As I said. There is nothing to support that belief.

Which, of course, leads me to believe you had a religious experience, but void of any real spiritual rebirth. I don't suspect we are going to change each others mind about it.

If you really want to believe that, that's fine. Although I would question the integrity of a God that allowed me to go for over 30 years believing I had a relationship with him, when I didn't.

When all else fails, blame God.

Who's blaming God here, you? It is you that is suggesting I was decieved. It's you claiming I had a religious experience rather than a real one. I don't believe that God would allow me to be decieved in that way, do you?

But you have said it was a mind-game now you say it was relationship.

At the time I believed/knew I had a relationship with God. I have never said it was a mind-game. All I have done is suggest that if you are right with your comments, then God has allowed me to live 30 years in delusion. However, I do not believe that a loving God would allow that.

And you accept the natural way....void of Spirit.

I accept there is no difference. However when I was a Christian I thought otherwise.

"thought" being the key-word.

No, believed completely. Had absolute faith. "Thought otherwise" is a figure of speech. I guess I should remember that a lot of Christians like to nitpick about choice of words to draw attention away from the point being made. I shall attempt to choose my words more carefully in the future.

Do you claim to be able to tell the difference between a spirit filled Christian and one that isn't? And how can you be so sure?

No prob. It gets confusing. But no, I never said that.

Might have been Easyrider.

and cannot even imagine what a person in that position would go through having known the truth then trample on it.

Leaving the faith was not an easy thing. And I never "trampled on it". Well at least not until more recently as I see more and more I was right to leave it.

It was very deceptive, but certainly had all the markings of truth while at the same time I even blame it for having destroyed my first marriage. I walked away, though crippled spiritually, from a religious experience. I had to take time and sort out the religious from the real. And God remained faithful even when I did not.

A tough situation to get through, no doubt. I am fortunate that I have not had any bad experiences when it comes to churches and church leaders. But I do understand how easy it is for bad situations to arise due to false teachings and that a very charasmatic leader can lead many people astray.

[twobitsmedia]

Who's blaming God here, you?

I believe you said: "I would question the integrity of a God that allowed me to go for over 30 years believing..."

It is you that is suggesting I was decieved.

I havent said that either.

It's you claiming I had a religious experience rather than a real one. I don't believe that God would allow me to be decieved in that way, do you?

I don't speak for God, so I do not know.

And you accept the natural way....void of Spirit.

I accept there is no difference. However when I was a Christian I thought otherwise.

"thought" being the key-word.

No, believed completely. Had absolute faith. "Thought otherwise" is a figure of speech. I guess I should remember that a lot of Christians like to nitpick about choice of words to draw attention away from the point being made. I shall attempt to choose my words more carefully in the future.

The words are important. They are the way we communicate and the only way we can judge what is being said.

Do you claim to be able to tell the difference between a spirit filled Christian and one that isn't? And how can you be so sure?

It takes discernment. But all I have here is words on a forum page. If the semantics are wrong, then it changes the story. My perspective based on the words is not a final judgement,

and cannot even imagine what a person in that position would go through having known the truth then trample on it.

Leaving the faith was not an easy thing. And I never "trampled on it". Well at least not until more recently as I see more and more I was right to leave it.

I think one of the translations use the phrase "trampled on" ...it's just figurative.

It was very deceptive, but certainly had all the markings of truth while at the same time I even blame it for having destroyed my first marriage. I walked away, though crippled spiritually, from a religious experience. I had to take time and sort out the religious from the real. And God remained faithful even when I did not.

A tough situation to get through, no doubt. I am fortunate that I have not had any bad experiences when it comes to churches and church leaders. But I do understand how easy it is for bad situations to arise due to false teachings and that a very charasmatic leader can lead many people astray.

"Charismatic" is a key word. I am now very leary of those sorts and they are plenty to be found. However, there are some charismatic leaders who are sound in their teaching.

[OnceConvinced]

Who's blaming God here, you?

I believe you said: "I would question the integrity of a God that allowed me to go for over 30 years believing..."

Based on your claim that I had a religious experience.

It is you that is suggesting I was decieved.

I havent said that either.

I claim that I had Christian experiences. You claim that I had religious experiences. I say my experiences were not religious. So it seems to me that you are suggesting I was decieved in what I believed.

Do you claim to be able to tell the difference between a spirit filled Christian and one that isn't? And how can you be so sure?

It takes discernment.

Ah yes, discernment. One of the gifts of the Holy Spirit I believed God had given me as a Christian. Funny that in the various churches I attended over the years, no one was able to discern that the Holy Spirit was not in me... Or perhaps it was in me and my Christian experience wasn't so religious after all.

"Charismatic" is a key word. I am now very leary of those sorts and they are plenty to be found. However, there are some charismatic leaders who are sound in their teaching.

Actually there was one church I belonged to that did gain a very bad reputation. Fortunately I left it before it got a bad name amongst the community. (I left home and moved to another town). My parents remained in it for a while after, but left in disgust at the way the pastor was behaving. It was quite sad, because I always held that pastor in high esteem and the church itself. It was the pastors ability to challenge and inspire that had a lot of influence on me moving forward with Christ. All I could conclude at the time (during the period the church crumbled and the pastor fell from grace) was that he was a good man who screwed up somewhere along the way and went completely down the wrong track.

[byhisgrace]

Since you have in obedience to the truth purified your souls for a sincere love of the brethren, fervently love one another from the heart, for you have been born again not of seed which is perishable but imperishable, that is, through the living and enduring word of God.

Jesus said

• Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.
  Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
  Do not be amazed that I said to you, 'You must be born again.' The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit."

In what sense do Christians claim to have become born anew? Do the foolish become wise? Does the person get a new personality? What?

====================================
Hello everyone:
I was 'born again' late in life you might say. I have never been really 'churched'. Did NOT care about church at all. I knew about Jesus Christ, but always summarized Him as a 'good teacher'. I had no desire to become 'religious' I always thought the term 'born again' came from the 70s, the hippie years <grin> and was REALLY shocked when I later found it in the bible <laughing> Most of my life I was indifferent about religion. Then, I had this incredible salvation experience, at which time I had not attended any church for about 15 years; and then only for a year.
-
"Born again" for me means - RECOGNIZING CHRIST! Most people know 'about' Jesus, they know who He is 'suppose' to be. However, recognizing Christ brought me (literally) to my knees!! It was definitely supernatural, it was definitely NOT intellectual!! Recognizing Christ also meant recognizing my sins (not pretty). I knew I was not perfect - but - recognizing, through Christ, HOW imperfect I really was, was literally gut wrenching. There was no fanfare, there was no music. I just woke up in the middle of the night and KNEW who Jesus Christ really was.... Now, everybody has a different experience - but - these experiences are memorable, regardless as to how insignificant that experience may seem.
-
It did not change my personality. However, it changed my attitude (literally overnight) toward life and toward things that happen to me, toward other people, I became more patient and tolerant, less selfish. I felt an undescribable happiness and I went and told everybody. I have calmed down since <grin> However, I also gained a desire to learn more about God, to tell people about Christ. I tried to read the bible during that one year I went to church (15 years prior to being born again) but could not comprehend. It was terribly boring to me. But now, I very much like to read it. I understand a lot, and It calms me down.
-
When I first found these Christian forums about 'debating Christianity" I laughed!!! Debating Christianity???! How do you do that? Christianity is not debatable. You either a Christian or you not. One cannot 'argue' about it or discuss it with non-Christians! To someone who has not experienced the Holy Spirit, it cannot be explained (I tried!) One cannot become a Christian without the Holy Spirit. That is becoming a Christian without Christ - don't work!! You can debate church ethics, people's ethics who claim to be Christians - but Christianity is a faith issue between each individual and God. This is not something one can touch and prove. We cannot prove God! HE just IS ! I did not come to Christ because somebody proved something to me about God!! - Isaiah 55 makes it clear that HIS thoughts a higher than ours!!
-
Revelation 3:20: Listen! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and have dinner with him, and he with Me.: - He knocks on everyones door (anyone). What will we do with it??! That is the question. WEll, you can debated to death, too!
-
Everybody in this forum knows at least 'about' Christ. - and Christ will knock (or call, or whisper) - or has done so already. Did you RECOGNIZE it?? Or - did you say "I am just nuts this is too crazy? Or - did you say: This is just an emotional point of time for me?" Or - did you say: Not now, God .... I am busy doing something you don't like, but I don't want to stop. Or - did you say: This is not for me!
-
It is people's Choice to open the door or not to open the door at the knock!! It's between you and God. No 'Forum wisdom' here.
-
So, this may not be the most intelligent post but it comes from a 'born again' Christian's heart.

Be blessed

[OnceConvinced]

Hi byhisgrace. The last thing I want to do is nitpick things about your testomony, but there are some comments I will make.

I just woke up in the middle of the night and KNEW who Jesus Christ really was....

Christians often claim knowledge, but I have a problem with that. Nobody can "know", they can only have "absolute faith. Saying the wod "knew" or "know" gives one a feeling of being faithful and authorative. However to a non-believer it is not convincing.

It did not change my personality. However, it changed my attitude (literally overnight) toward life and toward things that happen to me, toward other people,

This is how I see it too. It gives you a new outlook. However I don't see that as anything supernatural as some people in this thread seem to be suggesting.

I became more patient and tolerant, less selfish. I felt an undescribable happiness and I went and told everybody.

I wonder if you really became more patient, tolerant and less selfish, or whether you made more of an effort to take on these qualities. Was there a realisation that impatience, intolerance and selfishness made you unhappy and that all they did was cause you strife?

When I first found these Christian forums about 'debating Christianity" I laughed!!! Debating Christianity???! How do you do that? Christianity is not debatable.

Not debatable? As a Christian I was always debating it. There is much to debate, even with fellow Christians. Do you not have differing opinions about scripture with other Christians? Do you ever come across Christians that have exactly the same beliefs as you and who interpret scripture exactly the same as you?

Do you think it is not possible for a non-believer to argue hypothetically?

You can debate church ethics, people's ethics who claim to be Christians - but Christianity is a faith issue between each individual and God. This is not something one can touch and prove. We cannot prove God! HE just IS !

Unfortunately to a believer, this is simply just an assumption without any real evidence. It is generally not taken seriously. If I said the Lochness Monster exists, because it just IS, you would scoff at me.

I did not come to Christ because somebody proved something to me about God!!

You say you woke up one night "and knew". So how did you just know? Did God suddenly reveal that fact to you? If so, it seems you had some kind of proof directly from God, you didn't just choose to believe in God at that point. It seems God favoured you and chose to enlighten you, while refusing to enlighten millions of others.

-
Revelation 3:20: Listen! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and have dinner with him, and he with Me.: - He knocks on everyones door (anyone). What will we do with it??! That is the question. WEll, you can debated to death, too!

So you take seroiusly what a so-called Holy book told you? So if you read the Koran and it told you something, would you believe that?

[Cathar1950]

The rest of your comments are more of a "yes I did" and "no I didn't" type argument which I do not care to have, thanks.

I think that is more your style.
You claim the wisdom of the Bible is its ambiguity. How is that wise?
What it means is you pick and choose according to your personal desires and biases.
The practice is largely arbitrary. I would venture to say that your use of such ideas as "Born Again" or a personal relationship with Jesus is social conditioned and interpreted within the group you fellowship with.
Your very individualistic and spiritual interpretation has been socially conditioned and is a social construct among your fellow believers.

I think you could have fooled everyone and maybe youre not religious.
I dont see where anything you have written is not ambiguous. You just keep claiming otherwise and have not desire or ability to explain. Maybe you should go beyond your ancient vernacular that fails to speak to us moderns.

Again, I don't know what you mean. The Bible is loaded with amibguity,. but that is the wisdom of it.

How is that wise?

It leaves open the possibilty for interpretations.

Of course it leaves it open to interpretation. It is open to interpretation.

What makes you think I dont know what the evidence should be? This is another assertion on your part that is an unsupported assertion that has neither validity nor coherence.

Then, do tell, what is is supposed to be?

I happen to know what you are talking about as I was a Christian and have studied the subject for many decades even in college and grad school. I am not bragging as some was a waste of time. But that is true of anything.
What do you mean what is it suppose to be? I have to tell you what to believe now too?

Well, that's what I thought. You don't know.

It maybe what you are thinking, if you want to call it thinking, but I argue you dont know and question that it is "suppose" to be anything.

I would like to go into your meaning of being "born again". It seems you have made a lot out of two unknown authors from the NT that make mention of beong born again with little substance.

[twobitsmedia]

I claim that I had Christian experiences. You claim that I had religious experiences. I say my experiences were not religious. So it seems to me that you are suggesting I was decieved in what I believed.

I am claiming I don't know what you experienced. But semantically you are not decribing "born again."

Do you claim to be able to tell the difference between a spirit filled Christian and one that isn't? And how can you be so sure?

It takes discernment.

Ah yes, discernment. One of the gifts of the Holy Spirit I believed God had given me as a Christian. Funny that in the various churches I attended over the years, no one was able to discern that the Holy Spirit was not in me... Or perhaps it was in me and my Christian experience wasn't so religious after all.

I don't know. It is a gift, but discernment is also common sense (reading the clouds, knowing the seasons, etc).

"Charismatic" is a key word. I am now very leary of those sorts and they are plenty to be found. However, there are some charismatic leaders who are sound in their teaching.

Actually there was one church I belonged to that did gain a very bad reputation. Fortunately I left it before it got a bad name amongst the community. (I left home and moved to another town). My parents remained in it for a while after, but left in disgust at the way the pastor was behaving. It was quite sad, because I always held that pastor in high esteem and the church itself. It was the pastors ability to challenge and inspire that had a lot of influence on me moving forward with Christ. All I could conclude at the time (during the period the church crumbled and the pastor fell from grace) was that he was a good man who screwed up somewhere along the way and went completely down the wrong track.

Most churches I attend end up in some kind of controversy. Maybe I am too critical. I don't know. But, yes, I do think we are quick to "stone" the leader who sins.

[twobitsmedia]

I would like to go into your meaning of being "born again". It seems you have made a lot out of two unknown authors from the NT that make mention of beong born again with little substance.

Who the author is is irrelevant to me.

[OnceConvinced]

I am claiming I don't know what you experienced. But semantically you are not decribing "born again."

I acknowledged Christ as my personal lord and savior and recognised him as the son of God. I asked for forgiveness of sin.

Are you saying that is not being "born again"?

I agree (from a Christian perspective) that being born again is an internal rebirth and involves the Holy Spirit. However as we see many people take this step, then a few weeks later are no longer following Christ. The buzz wears off for a lot of people very quickly. Does that mean they were never truly "born again"? Does that therefore mean that a genuine commitment to Christ is not enough to be "born again"?