Why worship a "god" that threatens you?

[OpiatefortheMasses]

I'm reasonably sure that to extort something from someone else would constitute a sin of some kind according to most Christians but why is it OK when the very religion itself employs it? Most of the Christians I've talked to over the years would describe their "god" as fair, just, loving etc. but extortion (among other things) really strikes me as cruel and manipulative. Is this a "god" that's truly worthy of a person's worship or adoration?

[Goat]

...
Well in the context of the discussion a threat would be "An expression of an intention to inflict pain, injury, evil, or punishment." (TheFreeDictionary). I would say hell is quite a threat and a rather steep one for something as simple as doubting the claims of a particular religion. If you were to compare this to government that would be like giving someone the death penalty for jaywalking or littering. When you also take into account original sin and salvation where also manipulated by "god" hell definitely becomes a threat and one that I don't think we entirely deserve whether we believe or not. When you break it down it just becomes extortion.

Your error is here:

I would say hell is quite a threat and a rather steep one for something as simple as doubting the claims of a particular religion.

Hell was not a 'threat' for doubting the claims of a particular religion.

1. There was no threat. Legally for it to be a threat the consequences must be immediate and the person must feel that inury or death is immediate. Saying "I'll kill you in 10 years if..." is not a legal threat, especially if I had no obvious means of making good on my statement nor acted in a threatening manner. Telling the truth about a nasty consequence is not a threat or extortion until it is proven that it can be carried out and something is paid to offset the consequence. Legally that is.

Guess what. Religion is not in the U.S. legal system. Morally and ethically, it IS a threat. It is apparently an empty threat, but a threat never the less.

But it might be extortion - "the obtaining of property from another induced by wrongful use of actual or threatened force..." except no one was asked to give anything or to even believe.

It is obtaining services.. I.e. belief, .. and obtaining the obligation for a 10% tithe. Yep.. Sounds like extortion to me.

We were asked to make up our own minds what kind of universe we wanted to live in and then choose between two (or more) options, which had vastly opposite outcomes.

And who did this?? Where what this done?? Is this one of those 'unsupported claim' thingies I keep on hearing about?

2. "doubting the claims of a particular religion" falls short in this way:

According to the revealed purpose of HIS creation:
Isaiah 43:7, 21
7 "whom I created for my glory"
21 the people I formed for myself that they may proclaim my praise.

It that TRUE?? I mean, that sounds like one of those unsupported claims too... The writer of the 4th servant song certainly thought God was worthy of praise, but, well, is that right? At that time, Judaism did not have a well developed concept of an afterlife, it wasn't until the 2nd century bce that you see references being made, although I am sure they were aware of the concept from other religions.

OF course, the writer of the 4th servant song could be wrong too..

Matthew 22:
37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’
38 This is the first and greatest commandment.

And, perhaps the writer of the Gospel of Matthew was wrong too. The parable of the king in Luke seems to indicate otherwise. .. and you know the last line of THAT parable. (luke 19:27)

Revelation 14:7 He said in a loud voice, "Fear God and give him glory.."

...and without free will our songs of love and praise are robotic nonsense. Love, praise and worship can only come from a true free will chocie. A spiritual or meat robot parroting "I love you. I praise your glory." can never fulfill HIS purpose.

Seems to me that people are making a lot of unsupported claims in the name of their favorite deity. However, I keep on hearing from lots of Christians about 'Turn or Burn'. And there will be much wailing and gnashing of teeth.. and threats about 'eternal lake of fire'.

Creating a person(s) able to make this true free will choice to fulfill HIS purpose also meant that they had to be able to rebel against HIS will and destroy forever being able to fulfill the purpose of HIS creation of them.

"I will love you if you worship me of your own free will, but if you don't, I will torture you for eternity in the lake of fire'.. Right.. Uh huh. Sounds really like 'free will'..

We were to choose which kind of life we wanted to have, which kind of life we hoped to have by making this choice:

1. a life with a GOD who was perfect and created us to join HIM in that perfection and in loving holy communion forever so we could fulfill HIS creation plan for us and in us,
or
2. a life in which we were just as important as this false god, better in fact because we were not liars about ourselves. A life in which we are our own GOD and our laws and our love is the epitomé of perfection. A life in which we bow to no one,
or
3. a life following any other guru who claimed to be god, wanting to live under his uniques set of demands and rewards.

Well, the thing is, I need this little thing known as EVIDENCE. I see lots of people who tell me lots of fanciful things.. and often they contradict each other. Then they all tell me 'believe the way I do or burn in hell (or be destroyed for ever), and NOT ONE OF THEM CAN SHOW ME that they tell the truth.

Now, He did weight the choice to follow HIS plan for our creation nicely with the election promise and the promise of the gospel salvation if we should ever fall into sin after choosing to conform to HIS plan,

Now, can you show me that this is reality, or can even support it scriptural, with quotes IN CONTEXT (i.e. not just a series of one liners, but show that is what is actually being talked about)?

Can you show the 'He' has a plan.. other than resorting to religious promotional materials?? Can you show what I should accept your word?

and He did warn the others that their choice was eternal in that once HE proved to them that HE was in fact GOD and that the universe they wanted the most was in fact unavailable, they could never change their mind because the proof would coerce them to choose for self interest, not their deepest free will hopes and desires.

Please shwo that 'HE did in fact warn others, and that these people were accurate in their testimony (or is it just all this unsupported claim that I keep on hearing about.

Self creating their eternal character as being unable to fulfill HIS plan for their creation was also explained to be the very definition of evil and that they would never quit hating GOD and trying to subvert HIS church.

And how do you know this?? Can you support this claim?? or is this just one of those 'unsupported claims' that we get in sermons?

Knowing this before choosing, but with no proof, applied no threat to them, as it was merely three peoples opinion that bad things would ensue because they were in fact GOD that the rebellious would be denying,

making them unable to ever fulfill HIS plan therefore outside of HIS love forever, destined to eternal separation and suffering in a place called hell.

Peace, Ted

And how is anything but a sermon with very little verifiable or supported content/?

[99percentatheism]

I'm reasonably sure that to extort something from someone else would constitute a sin of some kind according to most Christians but why is it OK when the very religion itself employs it? Most of the Christians I've talked to over the years would describe their "god" as fair, just, loving etc. but extortion (among other things) really strikes me as cruel and manipulative. Is this a "god" that's truly worthy of a person's worship or adoration?

Extortion? That's an absurd line of reasoning.

Ultimatum! That is the language of The Ultimate Authority.

We see that in nature. Evolution DEMANDS it!

[OpiatefortheMasses]

Extortion? That's an absurd line of reasoning.

How do you figure? It's demonstrably extortion when you break down the whole scenario.

Ultimatum! That is the language of The Ultimate Authority.

If the ultimatum is threat that's still extortion.

We see that in nature. Evolution DEMANDS it!

Huh?

[OpiatefortheMasses]

1. There was no threat. Legally for it to be a threat the consequences must be immediate and the person must feel that inury or death is immediate. Saying "I'll kill you in 10 years if..." is not a legal threat, especially if I had no obvious means of making good on my statement nor acted in a threatening manner. Telling the truth about a nasty consequence is not a threat or extortion until it is proven that it can be carried out and something is paid to offset the consequence. Legally that is.

I'm sorry, but when a religion claims that if I don't follow it I will be sent to a place where I'll be tortured for an immeasurable amount of time I call that a threat. Obviously, if you believe in the "god" of the bible then you believe he can make good on that threat and the very presence of hell alone is a threat. Personally, I don't believe it's a threat for the reason that I simply don't believe in any of it. You do though and because you believe it's all real it becomes extortion within your personal beliefs. For the record, I'm not taking "god" to court. I'm just showing how believers are extorted.
But it might be extortion - "the obtaining of property from another induced by wrongful use of actual or threatened force..." except no one was asked to give anything or to even believe.

We were asked to make up our own minds what kind of universe we wanted to live in and then choose between two (or more) options, which had vastly opposite outcomes.

2. "doubting the claims of a particular religion" falls short in this way:

According to the revealed purpose of HIS creation:
Isaiah 43:7, 21
7 "whom I created for my glory"
21 the people I formed for myself that they may proclaim my praise.

Matthew 22:
37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’
38 This is the first and greatest commandment.

Revelation 14:7 He said in a loud voice, "Fear God and give him glory.."

...and without free will our songs of love and praise are robotic nonsense. Love, praise and worship can only come from a true free will chocie. A spiritual or meat robot parroting "I love you. I praise your glory." can never fulfill HIS purpose.

Honestly, if "god" wanted people to truly love him (which seems rather trivial for an omnipotent being, but I digress) then he shouldn't give people ultimatums like "if you don't love and worship me I'm going to throw you in hell where you'll be tortured forever". Seriously, people aren't going to truly love a guy like that but rather just be obedient to escape the wrath of "god". When they say "I love you. I praise your glory" they're really saying "please don't send me to hell. I'll tell you whatever you want to hear." It's not about love. It's about obedience.

Creating a person(s) able to make this true free will choice to fulfill HIS purpose also meant that they had to be able to rebel against HIS will and destroy forever being able to fulfill the purpose of HIS creation of them.

I think I said this before but it bears repeating: you're boiling down human beings to mere cheerleaders for "god". That's a pretty sad and shallow existence in my opinion.

We were to choose which kind of life we wanted to have, which kind of life we hoped to have by making this choice:

1. a life with a GOD who was perfect and created us to join HIM in that perfection and in loving holy communion forever so we could fulfill HIS creation plan for us and in us,
or
2. a life in which we were just as important as this false god, better in fact because we were not liars about ourselves. A life in which we are our own GOD and our laws and our love is the epitomé of perfection. A life in which we bow to no one,
or
3. a life following any other guru who claimed to be god, wanting to live under his uniques set of demands and rewards.

I would say this is your opinion or rather the opinion of your particular interpretation of the bible. No is claiming their own love or laws are perfect. Nothing is perfect and that even includes "god". Perfection is just a human concept and the standards on what is perfect varies from person to person. You're free to believe whatever you want but telling people your beliefs are correct or that they follow "false gods" when you can't demonstrate how yours is correct is pretty arrogant in my book. I'll leave it at that since the rest of your comment falls headfirst into preaching rather than debating.

[OpiatefortheMasses]

A gun to the head would be a coercion of my will.

And telling a person they'll go to hell where they'll be tortured forever if they don't believe you isn't? I think that could coerce anyone provided it could be show to be true.

God wants people who can love and engage HIM in holy communion. Love, holiness and worship are all products of a free will only. If there was any coercion at all, no love could be felt or shared.

Then he should get rid of hell otherwise he's coercing people.

BUT,
IF I told you that your choice was to worship me or your rejection would be to create evil for which you would be judged,

without offering any proof that I was GOD, or that I had any power at all and without showing any "gun" or threat except my words,

just how shivering scared would you be?

a) you would have to demonstrate how not believing you actually "creates evil" because doubting a wild claim is only natural.

b) There would be no illusion that you "loved" me if you're offering me ultimatums.

c) what reason would I have for worshiping you and why do you want my worship so bad that you're willing to judge me simply for not worshiping you? Seems rather petty.

Not too much, I don't think:
1. He has not proven he has the power to damn or to bless.
2. He has not proven that his love is greater than our own.
3. He has not proven himself to be our creator and therefore worthy of extra worship.

You would be completely free to do what you wanted, accept HIS line or reject it.

And that is why I believe that is what happened; it is too perfect to ignore.

The only thing you've shown here is that obviously he doesn't want all of his "children" to go to heaven and is perfectly fine with having people tortured who had no reason to believe because at anytime "god" could have made shown the world he existed with empirical evidence but choose not to because he only wanted the most impressionable of followers. Once again, that's not a "god" worthy of anyone's adoration in my opinion.

[connermt]

I'm reasonably sure that to extort something from someone else would constitute a sin of some kind according to most Christians but why is it OK when the very religion itself employs it? Most of the Christians I've talked to over the years would describe their "god" as fair, just, loving etc. but extortion (among other things) really strikes me as cruel and manipulative. Is this a "god" that's truly worthy of a person's worship or adoration?

One reason is becase fear and guilt are taught in an effort to overcome the common sense approach of "why worship such a deity".
Without the promise of heaven/hell, most people wouldn't need a deity/savior.

[OpiatefortheMasses]

One reason is becase fear and guilt are taught in an effort to overcome the common sense approach of "why worship such a deity".
Without the promise of heaven/hell, most people wouldn't need a deity/savior.

Very true. Using fear and guilt keeps people dependent on the religion or the "god" of the religion.

[dusk]

One reason is becase fear and guilt are taught in an effort to overcome the common sense approach of "why worship such a deity".
Without the promise of heaven/hell, most people wouldn't need a deity/savior.

It is also because, as Lennox says, without hell & heaven there is no justice. If there is no justice in this life, there ought to be some in the afterlife. If one cannot deal with that they prefer something that deals justice. Yet on the other hand they also prefer gods with certain characteristics over others and combine it into something that is probably bound to become somewhat inconsistent.

[connermt]

One reason is becase fear and guilt are taught in an effort to overcome the common sense approach of "why worship such a deity".
Without the promise of heaven/hell, most people wouldn't need a deity/savior.

It is also because, as Lennox says, without hell & heaven there is no justice. If there is no justice in this life, there ought to be some in the afterlife. If one cannot deal with that they prefer something that deals justice. Yet on the other hand they also prefer gods with certain characteristics over others and combine it into something that is probably bound to become somewhat inconsistent.

Some people confuse justice with revenge as well.
I wonder though, why would such a grand, all powerful/knowing deity like the christian god have the NEED for justice at all? It seems like, if he can transcend time and space and physics (etc) he could also transcend the human constraint of justice...

[ttruscott]

[quote="OpiatefortheMasses"]

I believe that I am missing your point because my definition of coercion by the Almighty is that it can't be resisted but you seem to take great pride in resisting the coercion GOD offers you?

Anyway, I offer the free will choice as a true choice without irresistable coercion and all you can say is prove it?

Sorry no can do; above my pay grade; better get onto GOD for that.

Peace, Ted