If a god exists, why does he/it need my buy in?
Why is believing in a god ...necessary to living a good and productive life? (It's not but I'm interested in learning from Christians here, why they feel otherwise)
Thanks!
Why should one care that God exists?
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Why should one care that God exists?
Post #1I'm an atheist but also a former Christian. Instead if asking Christians to show me evidence of god's existence (which there is no objective proof; the Bible isn't proof of anything) why not tell me and other atheists, why is believing relevant? Why should anyone care if a god exists?
If a god exists, why does he/it need my buy in?
Why is believing in a god ...necessary to living a good and productive life? (It's not but I'm interested in learning from Christians here, why they feel otherwise)
Thanks!
If a god exists, why does he/it need my buy in?
Why is believing in a god ...necessary to living a good and productive life? (It's not but I'm interested in learning from Christians here, why they feel otherwise)
Thanks!
Every silver lining, has a cloud.
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tortured soul
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Post #81
[Replying to post 79 by DanieltheDragon]
Within Eden, the heart (vitality) of the first man remained static, waiting to be initiated by either the tree of life, or the tree of knowledge. Paul described the first man's heart as senseless, meaning without intelligence, for his garden experience was static, thus leaving him content just to till and keep the garden. Once eating the fruit of knowledge, his heart was initiated towards the pursuit of self-experiences, or the complete involvement of the defining of good and evil (which will be distinguished by the individual, for broccoli is considered evil by some because it causes negative effects to them), thus the tree of knowledge represents the tree of opposing experiences. With the core invigorated with life, people are left to experience the pursuit of evolving information on their own, with God in the foreground to maintain a balance of good and evil upon the earth.
The animal kingdom did not eat from the tree of knowledge, therefore they remain static in their pursuits, limited to a mind, will, and emotions, but no passionate pursuits (so they like and dislike, but they have no passion to lead them to hate or be obsessed). It is because of the tree of knowledge that people are consumed with knowledge- this is not good or bad, but the normal condition of all those born on earth. Good and evil will be established through genetic impressions, like the first few chapters of the Bible describe (Seth and Cain).
Within Eden, the heart (vitality) of the first man remained static, waiting to be initiated by either the tree of life, or the tree of knowledge. Paul described the first man's heart as senseless, meaning without intelligence, for his garden experience was static, thus leaving him content just to till and keep the garden. Once eating the fruit of knowledge, his heart was initiated towards the pursuit of self-experiences, or the complete involvement of the defining of good and evil (which will be distinguished by the individual, for broccoli is considered evil by some because it causes negative effects to them), thus the tree of knowledge represents the tree of opposing experiences. With the core invigorated with life, people are left to experience the pursuit of evolving information on their own, with God in the foreground to maintain a balance of good and evil upon the earth.
The animal kingdom did not eat from the tree of knowledge, therefore they remain static in their pursuits, limited to a mind, will, and emotions, but no passionate pursuits (so they like and dislike, but they have no passion to lead them to hate or be obsessed). It is because of the tree of knowledge that people are consumed with knowledge- this is not good or bad, but the normal condition of all those born on earth. Good and evil will be established through genetic impressions, like the first few chapters of the Bible describe (Seth and Cain).
Last edited by tortured soul on Sun Aug 10, 2014 9:15 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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tortured soul
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Post #82
[Replying to post 79 by DanieltheDragon]
Bondage represents the necessity of being involved with earthly information and the pursuit of evolving knowledge. From birth, people are dependent upon the information given to them to survive, thus leaving all people in bondage to knowledge, and the knowledge can either be profitable, or unprofitable, but that is up to the individual who is experiencing the information.
Bondage represents the necessity of being involved with earthly information and the pursuit of evolving knowledge. From birth, people are dependent upon the information given to them to survive, thus leaving all people in bondage to knowledge, and the knowledge can either be profitable, or unprofitable, but that is up to the individual who is experiencing the information.
Last edited by tortured soul on Sun Aug 10, 2014 11:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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DanieltheDragon
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Post #83
[Replying to post 81 by tortured soul]
There are several problems with your position on the tree of knowledge and namely they are related to the assumptions you make:
1. That the tree of knowledge is real
2. Assumptions about the behaviors and motivations of other animals
3. Genetic impressions
to address the first point there is no evidence to suggest that the story of adam and eve is a real event. Since your entire argument is based on this it would necessitate that you prove that this event actually took place.
the second point is demonstrably false. As a large variety of animals have displayed a huge gamit of emotional states including hate obsession curiosity jealousy compassion etc. including Passionate pursuits.
the final point you make has no basis in our current understanding of genetics at the bare minimum it suggests that you should perhaps get a further understanding of what is actually involved in genes and what they do and how they influence our behaviors. This is a complex subject and is not for the layman and can often be multi-disciplinary in understanding the way genes play a role in our lives.
I would suggest Biology 101 Pyschology 101 to get a basis to help you understand how genes work and how they influence behavior. The stories in genesis do not reflect how genes work and worst they run counter to our understanding of genes and at best they do not describe genetics.
There are several problems with your position on the tree of knowledge and namely they are related to the assumptions you make:
1. That the tree of knowledge is real
2. Assumptions about the behaviors and motivations of other animals
3. Genetic impressions
to address the first point there is no evidence to suggest that the story of adam and eve is a real event. Since your entire argument is based on this it would necessitate that you prove that this event actually took place.
the second point is demonstrably false. As a large variety of animals have displayed a huge gamit of emotional states including hate obsession curiosity jealousy compassion etc. including Passionate pursuits.
the final point you make has no basis in our current understanding of genetics at the bare minimum it suggests that you should perhaps get a further understanding of what is actually involved in genes and what they do and how they influence our behaviors. This is a complex subject and is not for the layman and can often be multi-disciplinary in understanding the way genes play a role in our lives.
I would suggest Biology 101 Pyschology 101 to get a basis to help you understand how genes work and how they influence behavior. The stories in genesis do not reflect how genes work and worst they run counter to our understanding of genes and at best they do not describe genetics.
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DanieltheDragon
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Post #84
tortured soul wrote: [Replying to post 79 by DanieltheDragon]
Oh, bondage represents the necessity of being involved with earthly information and the pursuit of evolving knowledge. From birth, people are dependent upon the information given to them to survive, thus leaving all people in bondage to knowledge, and the knowledge can either be profitable, or unprofitable, but that is up to the individual who is experiencing the information.
Doesn't this apply to spiritual knowledge to? If you are going to make the argument it is true for both the physical and spiritual
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tortured soul
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Post #85
[Replying to post 83 by DanieltheDragon]
Yes, Dragon, earthly spiritual pursuits also belong to the pursuit of knowledge, but they remain earthly, as Jesus stated, He who is of the earth, belongs to the earth and of the earth he speaks. All we know, as we arrive into the world, will be the earth (local environment) and spoon fed earthly information.
The fact that I have never seen any animal evolve into a human must mean, according to your stance, that evolution from animal to human does not exist either, for I have never seen it, and throughout the annuls of history it has not been recorded to have been witnessed. Animals are static in their pursuits. Yes, they have emotions, they have affection, they have desire, and a will, but there is no passion compelling them to be philosophers, or architectural engineers, or physicists, or doctors, or police officers, etc.- this is limited to the experiences of mankind (who are dictated by good and evil), and their emotional states are limited in expression, not being involved in wrath, malice, obsession, animosity (extreme emotional responses)- in other words, they have nothing to do with the emotions regarding the two extremes mankind deals with, which is either self-righteousness or self-unrighteousness.
The first man and woman (they were not Adam and Eve until after the garden, for receiving a name deals with being under authority and accountability), left their genetic impressions upon all people- including not hearkening and not obeying, which can be witnessed even in infants when they are told not to touch something. I will deal only with the bare minimum of genetic understanding, as God stated, The sins of the father will be passed down to the children- I don't need to take courses to understand this fact. Impressions left, though strong, can be denied by the will, thus opening an opportunity for positive change for future generations. Like God said, Oh that they would obey and follow my commandments, that it may go well with them and their children forever. Any devastation inflicted by God upon mankind has involved genetics, for if God sees that there is no genetic hope for mankind (like the flood, where people, according to God, had the imaginations of their hearts only upon evil continually), He does what seems fit to Him, but the decision is made to maintain the balance of good and evil. As Solomon stated, Be not righteous overmuch, and do not be over wise, Do not sin overmuch, neither be a fool. On earth, humans are constantly striving to maintain a balance within themselves, yet, the animal kingdom does not have this issue, or any issue dealing with the progressive, volatile pursuit after knowledge. I feel the tree of knowledge explains why this is so.
Yes, Dragon, earthly spiritual pursuits also belong to the pursuit of knowledge, but they remain earthly, as Jesus stated, He who is of the earth, belongs to the earth and of the earth he speaks. All we know, as we arrive into the world, will be the earth (local environment) and spoon fed earthly information.
The fact that I have never seen any animal evolve into a human must mean, according to your stance, that evolution from animal to human does not exist either, for I have never seen it, and throughout the annuls of history it has not been recorded to have been witnessed. Animals are static in their pursuits. Yes, they have emotions, they have affection, they have desire, and a will, but there is no passion compelling them to be philosophers, or architectural engineers, or physicists, or doctors, or police officers, etc.- this is limited to the experiences of mankind (who are dictated by good and evil), and their emotional states are limited in expression, not being involved in wrath, malice, obsession, animosity (extreme emotional responses)- in other words, they have nothing to do with the emotions regarding the two extremes mankind deals with, which is either self-righteousness or self-unrighteousness.
The first man and woman (they were not Adam and Eve until after the garden, for receiving a name deals with being under authority and accountability), left their genetic impressions upon all people- including not hearkening and not obeying, which can be witnessed even in infants when they are told not to touch something. I will deal only with the bare minimum of genetic understanding, as God stated, The sins of the father will be passed down to the children- I don't need to take courses to understand this fact. Impressions left, though strong, can be denied by the will, thus opening an opportunity for positive change for future generations. Like God said, Oh that they would obey and follow my commandments, that it may go well with them and their children forever. Any devastation inflicted by God upon mankind has involved genetics, for if God sees that there is no genetic hope for mankind (like the flood, where people, according to God, had the imaginations of their hearts only upon evil continually), He does what seems fit to Him, but the decision is made to maintain the balance of good and evil. As Solomon stated, Be not righteous overmuch, and do not be over wise, Do not sin overmuch, neither be a fool. On earth, humans are constantly striving to maintain a balance within themselves, yet, the animal kingdom does not have this issue, or any issue dealing with the progressive, volatile pursuit after knowledge. I feel the tree of knowledge explains why this is so.
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DanieltheDragon
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Post #86
[Replying to post 84 by tortured soul]
Your genes or more specifically your DNA is the basic building block for your cells so to speak. It is like a blueprint. It relates specifically to how your body functions on a biological level.
How this relates to behavior is specific to how your cells function. By producing more or less of a specific hormone or how cells and neurotransmitters receive chemicals creates a predisposition to certain behaviors good bad or neutral. It is not the behavior that influences the gene it is the gene that influences the behavior.
Lets look at a computer for instance. writing software and code for a computer program won't suddenly change the hardware in your computer. It exists as a "cognitive" process. To change the hardware on my computer I would have to physically do that. No amount of code or software could change the hardware.
Likewise no amount of lying can directly change my genetic code.
Except that is not a fact and has nothing to do with genetics. Hmmm bare with me let me give an explanation of why this is wrong.I will deal only with the bare minimum of genetic understanding, as God stated, The sins of the father will be passed down to the children- I don't need to take courses to understand this fact
Your genes or more specifically your DNA is the basic building block for your cells so to speak. It is like a blueprint. It relates specifically to how your body functions on a biological level.
How this relates to behavior is specific to how your cells function. By producing more or less of a specific hormone or how cells and neurotransmitters receive chemicals creates a predisposition to certain behaviors good bad or neutral. It is not the behavior that influences the gene it is the gene that influences the behavior.
Lets look at a computer for instance. writing software and code for a computer program won't suddenly change the hardware in your computer. It exists as a "cognitive" process. To change the hardware on my computer I would have to physically do that. No amount of code or software could change the hardware.
Likewise no amount of lying can directly change my genetic code.
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DanieltheDragon
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Post #87
[Replying to post 84 by tortured soul]
However, I cannot rationally believe in something that I cannot directly observe without evidence that supports the case.
Let us take the Adam and Eve story for instance. What makes that more valid than the story of Coatlicue? There is no evidence to support either story so which one is real? Would it be rational for me to say this one is more real than this one or to conclude that due to the lack of evidence I cannot declare one is more valid than the other so I will reserve my judgment until sufficient evidence is presented?
My question to you that I would like an answer on is if it is written and presented as fact do we treat it as fact?
That is not my stance my stance is that I require evidence to believe in something. There is plenty of convincing evidence that leads me to believe that evolution exists. Now belief is different than reality. I can believe in something that doesn't exist and I can believe something doesn't exist that exists.The fact that I have never seen any animal evolve into a human must mean, according to your stance, that evolution from animal to human does not exist either, for I have never seen it,
However, I cannot rationally believe in something that I cannot directly observe without evidence that supports the case.
Let us take the Adam and Eve story for instance. What makes that more valid than the story of Coatlicue? There is no evidence to support either story so which one is real? Would it be rational for me to say this one is more real than this one or to conclude that due to the lack of evidence I cannot declare one is more valid than the other so I will reserve my judgment until sufficient evidence is presented?
My question to you that I would like an answer on is if it is written and presented as fact do we treat it as fact?
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tortured soul
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Post #88
[Replying to post 85 by DanieltheDragon]
So, by your own admission, if I were to place a virus within the software, the program would be altered, correct? This is a very good analogy of how sin was received into the heart, thereby passing this genetic virus to every human born on this planet. Thank-you for that knowledge.
So, by your own admission, if I were to place a virus within the software, the program would be altered, correct? This is a very good analogy of how sin was received into the heart, thereby passing this genetic virus to every human born on this planet. Thank-you for that knowledge.
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tortured soul
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Post #89
[Replying to post 86 by DanieltheDragon]
To answer the question regarding written facts, my personal experience of the God of Christianity came before my knowledge of the Bible, and to this day, I have never been a part of a church, so there was no previous bias on my decision to believe. My personal experience arrived before I contacted what was written, but what is written confirms my personal experience, ultimately making what is written to become a fact in relation to my personal experiences with God.
To answer the question regarding written facts, my personal experience of the God of Christianity came before my knowledge of the Bible, and to this day, I have never been a part of a church, so there was no previous bias on my decision to believe. My personal experience arrived before I contacted what was written, but what is written confirms my personal experience, ultimately making what is written to become a fact in relation to my personal experiences with God.
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DanieltheDragon
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Post #90
No that is not what I admitted. Please don't put words in my mouth. If you were to write a virus that manipulated the software it still would not effect the hardware.tortured soul wrote: [Replying to post 85 by DanieltheDragon]
So, by your own admission, if I were to place a virus within the software, the program would be altered, correct? This is a very good analogy of how sin was received into the heart, thereby passing this genetic virus to every human born on this planet. Thank-you for that knowledge.
Software=mind
Hardware= Genes
software changes software
hardware changes hardware
Software cannot change hardware
Hardware can effect Software(through performance a faster processor can make a program run smoother or faster)
Genes can effect behavior
behavior don't effect genes.
Your behavior does not leave a genetic imprint.
