Human sacrifice

[Zzyzx]

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Christians often condemn human sacrifice and use it as justification for slaughtering competing religious groups and societies.

However, Christians glorify the sacrifice (called "martyrdom") of their namesake and other religious notables. Supposedly the "martyrdom" was often done willingly "to serve god."

How is that different from "pagan" sacrifices to their "gods?"

[Divine Insight]

In my opinion Jesus preached the same things that were already in the OT and from the OT God. And I think it is possible that Buddha got his ideas from OT.

No, Jesus clearly rejected the teachings of the OT and preached against them.

Matthew 5:
[38] Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
[39] But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.

Well, where have we heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth?

This comes directly from the Old Testament:

Deuteronomy 19:
[19] Then shall ye do unto him, as he had thought to have done unto his brother: so shalt thou put the evil away from among you.
[20] And those which remain shall hear, and fear, and shall henceforth commit no more any such evil among you.
[21] And thine eye shall not pity; but life shall go for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot.

Notice in Deuteronomy it clearly states that the purpose for this is to "Put the evil away from among you". And it also warns, "And thine eye shall not pity".

But yet here Jesus is rebuking this directly and teachings precisely the opposite.

Jesus is teaching people to take pity on these evil doers and to turn the other cheek and do nothing to put the evil away from among them.

So Jesus was a blasphemer against the Word of God in the Old Testament.

If Jesus said that he did not come to change the law or the prophets of old then he was indeed a liar.

Actually all bodies die eventually, in Biblical point of view that is not end. And I think the promise is for those who seek the Kingdom of God, not all that are claimed to be “devout religious people�.

But the promise was that God will feed people like he feeds the birds. Not that he would allow them to starve to death so they can be taken up into heaven.

[1213]

No, Jesus clearly rejected the teachings of the OT and preached against them.

Matthew 5:
[38] Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
[39] But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.

Well, where have we heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth?

This comes directly from the Old Testament:

Deuteronomy 19:
[19] Then shall ye do unto him, as he had thought to have done unto his brother: so shalt thou put the evil away from among you.
[20] And those which remain shall hear, and fear, and shall henceforth commit no more any such evil among you.
[21] And thine eye shall not pity; but life shall go for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot.

Notice in Deuteronomy it clearly states that the purpose for this is to "Put the evil away from among you". And it also warns, "And thine eye shall not pity".

But yet here Jesus is rebuking this directly and teachings precisely the opposite.

As you may guess, I disagree with you.

Firstly, the OT scripture speaks about person who makes false accusation:

And the judges shall make diligent inquisition: and, behold, if the witness be a false witness, and hath testified falsely against his brother; Then shall ye do unto him, as he had thought to have done unto his brother: so shalt thou put the evil away from among you.
Deuteronomy 19:18

That is not about cutting leg from person who has cut other persons leg. It is about person who makes false accusation and that to him must be done what he was trying to do to his brother. If the brother made accusation, which would have resulted death penalty, then the false witness should have been judged to death.

And as you misunderstood the point, so have many others apparently, because Jesus had to teach this:

You have heard that it was said, 'An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth.' But I tell you, don't resist him who is evil; but whoever strikes you on your right cheek, turn to him the other also.
Matt. 5:38-39

It was never the point that judgments are the same that were the crimes. And Jesus only clears that misunderstanding.

But the promise was that God will feed people like he feeds the birds. Not that he would allow them to starve to death so they can be taken up into heaven.

I read Matt. 6 again and I didn’t find part that says that God feeds us same way as he feeds the Birds. In my opinion it says,

See the birds of the sky, that they don't sow, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns. Your heavenly Father feeds them. Aren't you of much more value than they?
Matt. 6:26

Not "that God will feed people like he feeds the birds".

[Divine Insight]

As you may guess, I disagree with you.

Firstly, the OT scripture speaks about person who makes false accusation:

And the judges shall make diligent inquisition: and, behold, if the witness be a false witness, and hath testified falsely against his brother; Then shall ye do unto him, as he had thought to have done unto his brother: so shalt thou put the evil away from among you.
Deuteronomy 19:18

That is not about cutting leg from person who has cut other persons leg. It is about person who makes false accusation and that to him must be done what he was trying to do to his brother. If the brother made accusation, which would have resulted death penalty, then the false witness should have been judged to death.

And as you misunderstood the point, so have many others apparently, because Jesus had to teach this:

You have heard that it was said, 'An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth.' But I tell you, don't resist him who is evil; but whoever strikes you on your right cheek, turn to him the other also.
Matt. 5:38-39

It was never the point that judgments are the same that were the crimes. And Jesus only clears that misunderstanding.

And, as I'm sure you no doubt guess I disagree with you.

If you insist on taking the bible non-literally and abstractly (which I agree with) then if someone falsely accuses you of something that's the same as "smiting you on the cheek", and you are to turn the other cheek. Jesus never preached anywhere that people are to "Put the evil doers among them away".

So I disagree with you. Jesus was flat out rejecting the Old Testament directives that we are to put away the evil that is among us.

Jesus clearly rejected the Old Testament in spirit. It would be impossible to obey both Jesus and the Old Testament laws simultaneously. This is why so many Christains proclaim that Jesus brought a "New Covenant" that replaces the "Old Testament". But that also fails in light of the claims that Jesus did not come to change the laws or destroy the prophets of old.

Jesus clearly changed the laws dramatically.

So you see any Christians still stoning their unruly children to death?

Jesus even cited the Pharisees as being hypocrites in this regard. They claim to believe in a dogma that they don't even truly practice.

But the promise was that God will feed people like he feeds the birds. Not that he would allow them to starve to death so they can be taken up into heaven.

I read Matt. 6 again and I didn’t find part that says that God feeds us same way as he feeds the Birds. In my opinion it says,

See the birds of the sky, that they don't sow, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns. Your heavenly Father feeds them. Aren't you of much more value than they?
Matt. 6:26

Not "that God will feed people like he feeds the birds".

If God feeds the birds and you are much more value than they, then surely God will feed you too.

Why would he bother to even ask that question within the context of this proclamation if he didn't intended a direct correspondence?

It would make absolutely no sense to make a point about the birds and then ask, "Aren't you of much more value than they?", if the intent wasn't to mean that the very same point applies even more so to humans.

What you are basically trying to suggest here is that Jesus was a complete idiot and had absolutely no clue how to make a point or a correspondence.

What do you think he meant by asking that question within this context?

That since we're more valuable than the birds we should have to toil, sow, and labor to feed ourselves?

I think it's pretty clear that Jesus was trying to imply that we should trust God to feed us. But we know that this would be grossly misplaced trust.

I understand the point Jesus was trying to make. But Buddha makes this point far better without proclaiming that God feeds the birds. The point from Buddha is simple. Take no thought of the outcome of what you do, just do your best and leave the outcome to take care of itself.

In Buddhism this is actually called "The Principles of Least Effort". And what it basically boils down to is that we typically do our best work when we focus on what we are doing rather than worrying about how things might not work out as we had hoped.

No need to claim that any God feeds any birds. Jesus just chose a really bad analogy to try to make this point.

Buddhism makes the point far better.

Also if Jesus was "The Word Made Flesh", you'd think he should have known better than to use such poor analogies. If Jesus really was "The Word Made Flesh" he should have out-shown Buddha as a teacher. But clearly he didn't. Christians are far more confused among themselves than the Buddhist are.

[HammerofGrace]

[Replying to Divine Insight]

In other words, all one must do to be "not judged" (evidently to achieve "salvation") is to believe in God / Jesus. Right?

It doesn't matter what a person DOES -- only what they believe. Right?

If they believe, ask forgiveness and repent (according to some Christians) that is all which is required to get a ticket to heaven in the proposed "afterlife." Right?


This is my first time posting so forgive me if I cut and paste improperly, in time I'll figure it out. Anyway going back and forth debating the meaning of specific verses is a fool's folly. It is done all too often on forums like this to prove points on both sides. The problem with that is these verses are often taken out of context - both immediate and within the overall biblical message. The Bible is a remarkable book, unrivaled by anything ever written, religious or secular. An unbroken story written over thousands of years by multiple authors. A story of love, redemption and salvation!

The central problem with atheists is their undying reliance on themselves - their insistence that their own reasoning and logic produce truth and they LOVE to show you they are right but they CANNOT! If you aren't sure whether God exists ask an atheist to prove to you He doesn't... it's impossible. God cannot be proven any easier than He can be disproven. As a Christian I can refute EVERY anti-God/Christian post on here, even DivineInsight's and maybe I will, not sure yet. SEEK God and you will find Him! I researched all the pros and cons, if you will, for the existence of God and also for the validity of Christianity. I came away with the knowledge that the overwhelming evidence points to God's existence and that their is one true God made Flesh through Jesus Christ who lives within those who believe in Him through the Holy Spirit. The Bible is God's Word, God didn't write it but inspired those who did to pen His words which, in short, is verified by the irrefutable uniqueness of the Bible I referenced earlier. It is the ONLY "Holy Book" that asks you to test its prophecies to see if they've happened - if they didn't, put it down and run away - but they DID and ARE HAPPENING! Check it out for yourself...

To get to the original question -

In other words, all one must do to be "not judged" (evidently to achieve "salvation") is to believe in God / Jesus. Right?

NO, one must believe that Jesus Christ was who He said He was (God in the flesh) and that His death was the complete and absolute atonement for all sins for all of time. If one believes that and asks forgiveness of their own sins they are forgiven and assured of their place in the very real "afterlife" with Him in Heaven.

It doesn't matter what a person DOES -- only what they believe. Right?

If they believe, ask forgiveness and repent (according to some Christians) that is all which is required to get a ticket to heaven in the proposed "afterlife." Right?

We are not saved by works but by the grace of God. It is a FREE gift to ALL who accept it but sadly many, many do not. However, if one truly believes in Christ, their fruits will bear witness to their labors.

In the end the "there is/ there isn't a God" debate will never be settled, it is a matter of faith. I put mine in an everlasting and loving God NOT in the words of a dying man.

[Clownboat]

[Replying to Divine Insight]

In other words, all one must do to be "not judged" (evidently to achieve "salvation") is to believe in God / Jesus. Right?

It doesn't matter what a person DOES -- only what they believe. Right?

If they believe, ask forgiveness and repent (according to some Christians) that is all which is required to get a ticket to heaven in the proposed "afterlife." Right?


This is my first time posting so forgive me if I cut and paste improperly, in time I'll figure it out. Anyway going back and forth debating the meaning of specific verses is a fool's folly. It is done all too often on forums like this to prove points on both sides. The problem with that is these verses are often taken out of context - both immediate and within the overall biblical message. The Bible is a remarkable book, unrivaled by anything ever written, religious or secular. An unbroken story written over thousands of years by multiple authors. A story of love, redemption and salvation!

The central problem with atheists is their undying reliance on themselves - their insistence that their own reasoning and logic produce truth and they LOVE to show you they are right but they CANNOT! If you aren't sure whether God exists ask an atheist to prove to you He doesn't... it's impossible. God cannot be proven any easier than He can be disproven. As a Christian I can refute EVERY anti-God/Christian post on here, even DivineInsight's and maybe I will, not sure yet. SEEK God and you will find Him! I researched all the pros and cons, if you will, for the existence of God and also for the validity of Christianity. I came away with the knowledge that the overwhelming evidence points to God's existence and that their is one true God made Flesh through Jesus Christ who lives within those who believe in Him through the Holy Spirit. The Bible is God's Word, God didn't write it but inspired those who did to pen His words which, in short, is verified by the irrefutable uniqueness of the Bible I referenced earlier. It is the ONLY "Holy Book" that asks you to test its prophecies to see if they've happened - if they didn't, put it down and run away - but they DID and ARE HAPPENING! Check it out for yourself...

To get to the original question -

In other words, all one must do to be "not judged" (evidently to achieve "salvation") is to believe in God / Jesus. Right?

NO, one must believe that Jesus Christ was who He said He was (God in the flesh) and that His death was the complete and absolute atonement for all sins for all of time. If one believes that and asks forgiveness of their own sins they are forgiven and assured of their place in the very real "afterlife" with Him in Heaven.

It doesn't matter what a person DOES -- only what they believe. Right?

If they believe, ask forgiveness and repent (according to some Christians) that is all which is required to get a ticket to heaven in the proposed "afterlife." Right?

We are not saved by works but by the grace of God. It is a FREE gift to ALL who accept it but sadly many, many do not. However, if one truly believes in Christ, their fruits will bear witness to their labors.

In the end the "there is/ there isn't a God" debate will never be settled, it is a matter of faith. I put mine in an everlasting and loving God NOT in the words of a dying man.

You make lots of empty claims and you preach. Not much to debate you on, so...

It is not logical that a god would inspire the writing of a book with a message for everyone and then require Theologians or random posters on the internet to interpret and explain the book.

Finally, prove to me that pixies don't exist. I ask this in hopes of educating you how ineffective it is to ask someone to prove that gods don't exist.

Welcome to the forum.

[Zzyzx]

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Hi Hammer,

Welcome to the Forum. The statements you quoted were not the responsibility of Divine Insight, but were mine from post #73 – for which I take responsibility.

This is my first time posting so forgive me if I cut and paste improperly, in time I'll figure it out.

Just to be helpful, there is a tutorial regarding use of BBCode and the quote function at: http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... .php?t=582

Anyway going back and forth debating the meaning of specific verses is a fool's folly. It is done all too often on forums like this to prove points on both sides. The problem with that is these verses are often taken out of context - both immediate and within the overall biblical message. The Bible is a remarkable book, unrivaled by anything ever written, religious or secular. An unbroken story written over thousands of years by multiple authors. A story of love, redemption and salvation!

The bible is also a story of jealousy, dislike, conflict, warfare, genocide, atrocities, etc written by people whose identity is often unknown expressing their opinions about gods, spirits, giants, devils, etc -- and promoting a particular religious splinter group.

The central problem with atheists

How, exactly, can "I don't believe your god stories" (Atheism = without belief in gods) have a central problem?

is their undying reliance on themselves - their insistence that their own reasoning and logic produce truth and they LOVE to show you they are right but they CANNOT!

Disbelief in claims and stories about any or all of the thousands of proposed "gods" does NOT require that one ignore other (possibly superior) sources of truth.

Yes, religionists often bemoan non-believer's use of reasoning and logic – often suggesting that people should "believe on faith" that which cannot be shown to be anything more than imagination, folklore, myth, legend, unverifiable stories, etc.

Many very rational people are not willing to forgo their own reasoning, logic and experience to accept fanciful claims and tales offered by religion promoters. They would consider themselves very gullible (easily fooled and duped) to thoughtlessly follow the teachings of one of the tens of thousands of religion organizations / splinter groups / denominations, etc.

Evidence to support any of the religions is similar to all others – largely lacking and indistinguishable from imagination and/or psychological episodes and resulting testimonials.

If you aren't sure whether God exists ask an atheist to prove to you He doesn't... it's impossible.

Kindly note that relatively few Atheists claim that gods to not exist. Most realize that proving absolute non-existence is a fool's errand. One could be hiding behind an undiscovered planet in an unknown universe, for example.

However, many Non-Believers question / challenge religionist CLAIMS to have knowledge of supernatural entities and events. When such claims cannot be substantiated (beyond conjecture, opinion, religion promotional literature) they are shown to be suspect at best and possibly fraudulent at worst.

God cannot be proven any easier than He can be disproven.

Agreed. None of the thousands of proposed "gods" can be shown to exist.

As a Christian I can refute EVERY anti-God/Christian post on here, even DivineInsight's and maybe I will, not sure yet.

Many pass through here starting with that attitude – and discover they were dead wrong – and usually disappear rather quickly. Perhaps you have information and ability that is not available to all who have gone before you.

It is a very common mistake for Theists who join the Forum to underestimate their opposition. Perhaps they are accustomed to presenting their views in church or in "Christians only" environments where strong opposition views are not allowed.

Here they encounter a "level playing field" where no theistic position is given favorable treatment – and often do not fare very well and find that their usual "killer arguments" do not hold up to challenge, scrutiny, and demands for evidence beyond scripture.

SEEK God and you will find Him!

Many here and elsewhere have sought God and not found him – including Mother Teresa (according to her letters over fifty years of doubting the existence of God).

I researched all the pros and cons, if you will, for the existence of God and also for the validity of Christianity.

That claim will be put to the test here

I came away with the knowledge that the overwhelming evidence points to God's existence and that their is one true God made Flesh through Jesus Christ who lives within those who believe in Him through the Holy Spirit.

You have formed an opinion. That opinion and testimonial has no meaning in debate.

The Bible is God's Word, God didn't write it but inspired those who did to pen His words

In debate that is known as a CLAIM. In honorable debate one is expected and required (by Forum Rules and Guidelines) to substantiate the claim.

Perhaps it could be said that bible writers (whoever they were) felt "inspired" (motivated) to write their thoughts and opinions about God or gods. Is there any evidence that any of the gods actually influenced what was said?

which, in short, is verified by the irrefutable uniqueness of the Bible I referenced earlier.

As has been pointed out many times previously, VERY little of the bible is unique and that much of what it contains was said by earlier religions (some of which long predate Christianity and Judaism).

It is the ONLY "Holy Book" that asks you to test its prophecies to see if they've happened

Another CLAIM. Kindly demonstrate that NO other "holy book" asks that its prophesies be tested.

- if they didn't, put it down and run away - but they DID and ARE HAPPENING! Check it out for yourself...

Many have done exactly that with the bible. "Prophesies" seem to NOT happen OR they are written AFTER the events.

In other words, all one must do to be "not judged" (evidently to achieve "salvation") is to believe in God / Jesus. Right?

NO, one must believe that Jesus Christ was who He said He was (God in the flesh)

Did Jesus ACTUALLY say he was God? Kindly quote his words verbatim.

Others, however, made that claim for him.

and that His death was the complete and absolute atonement for all sins for all of time.

Atonement seems to be an idea promoted by Paul/Saul and his splinter group.

If one believes that and asks forgiveness of their own sins they are forgiven and assured of their place in the very real "afterlife" with Him in Heaven.

How can this be SHOWN to be true – more than conjecture, imagination, wishful thinking, etc?

It doesn't matter what a person DOES -- only what they believe. Right?

If they believe, ask forgiveness and repent (according to some Christians) that is all which is required to get a ticket to heaven in the proposed "afterlife." Right?

We are not saved by works but by the grace of God.

Some branches of Christianity teach this concept – other branches disagree. Both side cite scripture to show the other wrong. Perhaps both are wrong and there is no such thing as "soul" or "afterlife" or "salvation" – since none of them have been shown to exist. .

It is a FREE gift to ALL who accept it but sadly many, many do not.

Is a gift "free" if it comes with strings attached (obligations)?

However, if one truly bellieves in Christ, their fruits will bear witness to their labors.

If one lives an exemplary life while NOT believing in Christ, wouldn't their "fruits bear witness to their labors" more than a believer who acts marginally at best?

Could one tell who is a Christian by their "fruits" if their theistic position was unknown?

In the end the "there is/ there isn't a God" debate will never be settled, it is a matter of faith. I put mine in an everlasting and loving God NOT in the words of a dying man.

Agreed, the existence of non-existence of the thousands of "gods" is unlikely to be settled in debate.

[barneythedino]

"The Immortals: Hah. We will put that name to the test!"

Leoniadas: 300

[barneythedino]

Quick one.

If Jesus did not die, then what did he lose?

[Divine Insight]

We are not saved by works but by the grace of God. It is a FREE gift to ALL who accept it but sadly many, many do not. However, if one truly believes in Christ, their fruits will bear witness to their labors.

So in other words, you are claiming that Christianity has absolutely nothing at all to do with morality. Anyone who simply believes that Jesus was the demigod son of Yahweh receives a FREE gift of salvation.

That's pretty pathetic, IMHO.

Moreover, if this story were true I would flat out refuse this so-called FREE gift. I would not wish to live for eternity under the rule of such an insane egoistical and selfish God.

In the end the "there is/ there isn't a God" debate will never be settled, it is a matter of faith. I put mine in an everlasting and loving God NOT in the words of a dying man.

No. If you place your faith in the Hebrew mythology then you are not placing your faith in a loving God. On the contrary you are placing your faith in an extremely egotistical fascist God who is willing to give GRACE to anyone who asks for it no matter whether they have any sense of morality or not.

Moreover, this so-called "loving God" that you claim to believe in necessarily hates everyone who doesn't believe in Hebrew mythology no matter how good of a person they might be.

Mother Teresa is rotting in hell this very moment.

Because she was convinced that Jesus was a lie.

And why was she convinced that Jesus was a lie? Well, because Jesus broke every promise he ever made. Thus proving that he was either a liar or a lie.

Mother Teresa actually gave Jesus the benefit of the doubt, bless her heart. She preferred to believe that he was indeed a lie rather than a liar.

Imagine that. That should be the headlines in the "Heavenly Daily Paper".

Hear ye! Hear ye! Read all about it! "Mother Teresa forgives Jesus for lying by assuming that he never existed at all. But Jesus condemns Mother Teresa to hell for eternity for not believing his lies."

That really does deserve to be Front Page News.

[HammerofGrace]

[Replying to Zzyzx]

Thank you Zzyxx for your welcome and link to the rules, etc. I understand from your post and from another that a lot of my reply was "preachy" and not really debate points, I apologize for that please chalk it up to lack of experience.

I am actually using my phone to post this so I must be brief here or I could be here for days hunting and pecking. I wanted to quickly thank everyone for their welcome and to assure all of you that I will be around to debate within the stated rules - please continue to correct me if say or do something outside of them. I am a Christian and I believe you when you say others have come before me and bolted once they found the going wasn't as easy as they thought it would be. Many, many Christians are ill equipped to defend their positions once outside the confines of their church and that is unfortunate. Perhaps over time you will consider that I am not one of them.

I will reply to your counterpoints - the debatable ones - when I have a keyboard. I will, however, make one point. The belief that their is no God or gods if you prefer is illogical. If one sees a paper airplane they assume correctly that someone or something created it, to assume it just appeared would be illogical. Likewise to look at something as complex as the universe and to say it just appeared would be illogical yet this is ultimately the position the atheist MUST take. You can tell me all about the big bang and I may believe you but when I ask how the first piece of matter that precipitated the big bang came to be you cannot give me a defendable answer, you can only say that it just appeared. That is illogical as to bring something into existence from nothing - no pre-existent state or source - is not possible. For that first piece of matter to come into being is beyond all natural law and therefore could only come into existence through supernatural means. It is logical, however, for one to conclude that the supernatural means necessary to bring that piece of matter into existence was God.

I look forward to participating in this and future debates.