Salvation from what?

[Peter]

Christians are always going on about salvation and how I should want it. Exactly what threat do I want salvation from and who or what is the source of this threat? Is this threat real or imagined? Can I talk to someone who has suffered by ignoring this threat? Maybe I'm atheist simply because nobody has been able to convince me a real threat exists. So convince me.

[Wootah]

[Replying to post 74 by Peter]

I argue that life is cherished because it is finite.

I can see you arguing it but how do you notionally practise it? Value has no relationship to finiteness. In fact an old person (that has no wisdom) is far less valuable than a young person.

[myth-one.com]

Christians are always going on about salvation and how I should want it. Exactly what threat do I want salvation from . . . ?

Death.

. . . and who or what is the source of this threat?

Being born as a human is the source. Human life always ends in death. It's the last event of any physical life form.

Is this threat real or imagined?

Very real.

Can I talk to someone who has suffered by ignoring this threat?

I'm not sure I understand that question. You cannot talk to anyone who has died.

I would think we all fear death to some degree. It is an unknown which cannot be experienced by the living.

Possibly the group of people who could ignore the fear of death are those who have undergone what are called near death experiences. About 85% report the experience as a total feeling of contentment, lack of worry, serenity, peace, etc. Having approached so close to death and found the experience very pleasant, many near death experiences have resulted in a person's change of lifestyle with less worry and fear. So from that point forward, I suppose they could be said to "ignore the threat" or at least the fear of death.

Maybe I'm atheist simply because nobody has been able to convince me a real threat exists.

Perhaps. Or perhaps you are comfortable with the concept of death. Perhaps you know that life should not be wasted by living in fear of death.

So convince me.

What Christianity offers is the future gift, hope, or promise of everlasting spiritual life.

If everlasting life does not appeal to you, that's ok. It'll be your choice, and God will be ok with that.

But before you finally make that decision, the two possible choices will be correctly explained to you. You will then choose eternal life or eternal death.

Fear not!

And ye shall know (future tense) the truth, and the truth shall make you free. (John 8:32)

[ttruscott]

..

According to a couple anonymous bible writers God wanted heaven for humans -- but evidently didn't think through his creation plan very well since only a tiny minority of humans are (according to many Christians) destined to heaven and the vast majority consigned to hell.

Where is the error?

1) Defective design
2) Faulty bible story
3) Incorrect claims about heaven requirements
4) Other (explain)

Other:
The error from the Christian pov is in the formulation of the premise: The disparate numbers of people destined to heaven and going to hell does not represent a fault in the creative program at all...

Christian understanding of the Bible claims that only sinners are born on earth as humans expressed by the claim 'all are sinners at birth.' The parable of the good but sinful seed teaches us that these sinners are made up of elect sinners who can be redeemed and non-elect sinners who cannot be redeemed.

The cause of one's election or lack of election is found in their own true free will decisions to accept YHWH as their GOD or to reject HIM. This free will decision is also that which set their relationship with YHWH so that they are either redeemable or non-redeemable. Though some sects of Christianity believe GOD created some people as evil to fulfill HIS plan, others, myself included, reject this as a blasphemy and claim our sins are only due to our free will choices, un-coerced or constrained by GOD.

And the reason that your numbers of the vast majority of humans being consigned to hell and only a few saved is not a true measure of GOD's success though it is an accurate measure of Christian thinking about life here, is that it does not take into account the uncountable billions of elect who chose to never go against YHWH at all in anything, never sinned and so were never born as humans on earth.

While the number of elect, those who accept HIM as their GOD, who chose to rebel against HIM and become evil in HIS sight is very small in comparison to the number of people who rejected HIM and HIS promises of salvation outright and so self created themselves as eternally evil, all sinners of whatever kind are a miniscule part of creation which cannot be adjudicated from earth's point of view.

Thus it is the lack of ability to experience the heavenly host that causes the disparity of elect to non-elect to seem to be in support of a failure of the creative plan, but which the Bible puts into perspective for Christians to understand that it was a fantastic success.

Peace, Ted

[ttruscott]

GOD's goal was heaven, a place or state of love and holiness.

...

Then it seems God didn't reach his goal
Was God's way of flooding the whole world perfectly loving?

I claimed that 'GOD's goal was heaven, a place or state of love and holiness.'...so what part of HIS goal was not met? In speaking of the Christian GOD, we both have the same info, the bible and it says heaven is real and attainable with many already heaven ready.

If your question about the flood refers to a lack of love in heaven, then it misses the mark as heaven is not on earth and will not be experienced by humans until after the judgment day.

But to address how the flood could be caused by a loving GOD from the Christian pov then we must understand that the human race is made up of two kinds of sinners, those able to be redeemed from being sinners, the elect, and those who cannot be redeemed and therefore must be banished, the tares, before the heavenly state can be instituted.

Those HE loves are the good seed and those HE hates are the tares. The flood was a prophecy using real events in real time to predict that HIS love for HIS people would prevail against the evils of even the whole world no matter how much they were outnumbered, so we would not despair.

Peace, Ted

[Wordleymaster1]

[Replying to post 83 by ttruscott]

I claimed that 'GOD's goal was heaven, a place or state of love and holiness.'...so what part of HIS goal was not met?

Can you point to where heaven is? Or should you be saying Heaven instead of heaven? I don't see a heaven (or Heaven) much less love and holiness dwelling within it. So I must conclude He failed

we both have the same info, the bible and it says heaven is real and attainable with many already heaven ready.

The bible says nothing. Men said that. Men you've never met nor know. So if you're capable of accepting these men as being truthful that's great. Expecting others to assume YOUR assumtion is wrong. I've read your bible. Don't see it as anything more special than any other very standard religious work. Fact is, it's quite mundane - boring even. It not only doesn't break the mold in regards to religious works, but simply makes yet another, very standard mold.

If your question about the flood refers to a lack of love in heaven,

Where is this sentence Was God's way of flooding the whole world perfectly loving? does it mention heaven (or Heaven)?

to address how the flood could be caused by a loving GOD from the Christian pov then we must understand that the human race is made up of two kinds of sinners,

Wrong. There is no understanding, but accepting without proof. Followers are quick to accept what they're told. I'm not a follower luckily enough.

those who cannot be redeemed and therefore must be banished, the tares, before the heavenly state can be instituted.

Ah God's dispoable people that He created. They're like disposable razors, or paper plates: use them for their purpose then pitch 'em! What a loving god!

Those HE loves are the good seed and those HE hates are the tares.

Oh you mean like the people the WBBC hates? You mean those people?

[Clownboat]

Christians are always going on about salvation and how I should want it. Exactly what threat do I want salvation from . . . ?

Death.

. . . and who or what is the source of this threat?

Being born as a human is the source. Human life always ends in death. It's the last event of any physical life form.

Is this threat real or imagined?

Very real.

Can I talk to someone who has suffered by ignoring this threat?

I'm not sure I understand that question. You cannot talk to anyone who has died.

I would think we all fear death to some degree. It is an unknown which cannot be experienced by the living.

Possibly the group of people who could ignore the fear of death are those who have undergone what are called near death experiences. About 85% report the experience as a total feeling of contentment, lack of worry, serenity, peace, etc. Having approached so close to death and found the experience very pleasant, many near death experiences have resulted in a person's change of lifestyle with less worry and fear. So from that point forward, I suppose they could be said to "ignore the threat" or at least the fear of death.

Maybe I'm atheist simply because nobody has been able to convince me a real threat exists.

Perhaps. Or perhaps you are comfortable with the concept of death. Perhaps you know that life should not be wasted by living in fear of death.

So convince me.

What Christianity offers is the future gift, hope, or promise of everlasting spiritual life.

If everlasting life does not appeal to you, that's ok. It'll be your choice, and God will be ok with that.

But before you finally make that decision, the two possible choices will be correctly explained to you. You will then choose eternal life or eternal death.

Fear not!

And ye shall know (future tense) the truth, and the truth shall make you free. (John 8:32)

So, in your opinion, were all religions invented to supply answers so that people did not have to cope with the fact of death? Or was that only Christianities purpose?

IMO, that seems the purpose of almost all religions we have to pick from. On that I agree with you 100%

[Wordleymaster1]

[Replying to post 81 by myth-one.com]

So if death is what you're supposed to be saved from (Exactly what threat do I want salvation from . . . ? Death. ) but human life always end in death (Human life always ends in death.) then there is no salvation at all based on your own explanation?

You cannot talk to anyone who has died.

If you're talkin about physical death, that's not true because many people do.

I would think we all fear death to some degree.

Not everyone does, if you're to believe some of their claims. If you're not willing to believe some of their claims, then nothing can be said to change your mind so you should question your motives in asking (if you do indeed ask).

What Christianity offers is the future gift, hope, or promise of everlasting spiritual life.

Christianity offers NOTHING. We each make out of it what we want to make out of it. I was a Christian for a long time. I'm peaceful and more hopeful now than before. So while I may not have taken what Christianity offered, you may just was well be making up stuff attributing to being offered by Christianity.

Post 81: Tue Sep 23, 2014 9:27 am Re: Salvation from what? 0Δ 0∇

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Peter wrote:
Christians are always going on about salvation and how I should want it. Exactly what threat do I want salvation from . . . ?

Death.

Peter wrote:
. . . and who or what is the source of this threat?

Being born as a human is the source. Human life always ends in death. It's the last event of any physical life form.

Peter wrote:
Is this threat real or imagined?

Very real.

Peter wrote:
Can I talk to someone who has suffered by ignoring this threat?

I'm not sure I understand that question. You cannot talk to anyone who has died.

I would think we all fear death to some degree. It is an unknown which cannot be experienced by the living.

Possibly the group of people who could ignore the fear of death are those who have undergone what are called near death experiences. About 85% report the experience as a total feeling of contentment, lack of worry, serenity, peace, etc. Having approached so close to death and found the experience very pleasant, many near death experiences have resulted in a person's change of lifestyle with less worry and fear. So from that point forward, I suppose they could be said to "ignore the threat" or at least the fear of death.

Peter wrote:
Maybe I'm atheist simply because nobody has been able to convince me a real threat exists.

Perhaps. Or perhaps you are comfortable with the concept of death. Perhaps you know that life should not be wasted by living in fear of death.

Peter wrote:
So convince me.

What Christianity offers is the future gift, hope, or promise of everlasting spiritual life.

If everlasting life does not appeal to you, that's ok.

Why anyone that would want to spend eternity with a tyrant like God, who killed millions of people and animals by drowning, is a mystery to me. Maybe some people like to be controlled by people of authority?

[ttruscott]

[Replying to post 83 by ttruscott]

I claimed that 'GOD's goal was heaven, a place or state of love and holiness.'...so what part of HIS goal was not met?

Can you point to where heaven is? Or should you be saying Heaven instead of heaven? I don't see a heaven (or Heaven) much less love and holiness dwelling within it. So I must conclude He failed

Logical fallacy - there is more than one reason a person cannot see something while it indeed does exist.

we both have the same info, the bible and it says heaven is real and attainable with many already heaven ready.

The bible says nothing. Men said that. Men you've never met nor know. So if you're capable of accepting these men as being truthful that's great. Expecting others to assume YOUR assumtion is wrong.

My assertion was that the bible teaches us that heaven exists, not that it proves it exists and it is the Christian authority, not you.

to address how the flood could be caused by a loving GOD from the Christian pov then we must understand that the human race is made up of two kinds of sinners,

Wrong. There is no understanding, but accepting without proof. Followers are quick to accept what they're told. I'm not a follower luckily enough.

Oh, no one has taught you about remote viewing or alien abduction? You followed no one, used no research materials in your studies...Wooops... You follow your god I follow mine.

those who cannot be redeemed and therefore must be banished, the tares, before the heavenly state can be instituted.

Ah God's dispoable people that He created. They're like disposable razors, or paper plates: use them for their purpose then pitch 'em! What a loving god!

Self created "disposable people"...cool, a new one.

Those HE loves are the good seed and those HE hates are the tares.

Oh you mean like the people the WBBC hates? You mean those people?

I've been told not to express my opinion of the nature of WBC's spirituality so, I'll pass on commenting. They do not define who is a tare or not. Nor do I. Are you comfortable defining that for us?

Peace, Ted

[ttruscott]

...

Why anyone that would want to spend eternity with a tyrant like God, who killed millions of people and animals by drowning, is a mystery to me. Maybe some people like to be controlled by people of authority?

Christians do not believe HE is a tyrant but a loving Father who keeps us safe for the depredations of the demonic. HIS judgements on peoples and nations are for the redemptive purpose of HIS elect and are also part of HIS sentence of judgment on the eternally evil.

This relates to the present day controversy whether it is better to let a criminal out who may be lying about being rehabilitated or preserving the safety of the people, a pertinent case as a parolee with a high likelihood to re-offend just killed a girl in a local town.

Since we believe we are sinners and addicted to choosing to be sinful, we enjoy HIS directives to holiness as loving grace and once our free will is returned at the ending of our addiction to evil, we will be under no one's authority, just bonded by loving kindness and a commitment to holiness.

All those under condemnation claim the judge is a tyrant, eh? A common enough theme, heard from all of us as we are all sinners and must be brought to repentance to see HIM as HE really is.

Peace, Ted

[Zzyzx]

.

Christians are always going on about salvation and how I should want it. Exactly what threat do I want salvation from . . . ?

Death.

Since Christians who consider themselves "saved" die just like everyone else, they are obviously not "saved from death."

If they wish to imagine that an imaginary part of them (a proposed "soul") transcends death to live on in a proposed "afterlife", they can IMAGINE that they do not "really" die.

Is there verifiable evidence that 1) humans possess a "soul?", 2) that an "afterlife" exists? 3) that religious rituals and beliefs will provide access to some sort of positive or desirable "afterlife?"